Does Integral have anything unique to say about the morality of US involvement in the Russia/Ukraine war?


#41

Wise post Mr Bennett.


#42

Who is being harmed in and in what way?

Let’s get specific and start fixing things.

OMG! What do you think all the fuss is about? Why do think schools have initiated SEL curriculum? Why do think there is a call for police reform? Why do you think trans inclusion is being discussed? Why do think the environment is being discussed? Why do you think income inequality is being discussed?

Who is being harmed; children, POC, LGBTQ, our planet, the poor. I’m sure many more and there are very specific ideas, policies being discussed.

But, this is my BIG issue with everything. I want everyone to be a part of the solutions. I don’t think this can just be directed from above or by activist. We all have our horror stories of those failures. I really loved the way the criminal justice reform bill in 2018 was handled. They had no idea about integral, but they just realized that some people had a religious perspective on the issue, some economic, some social justice, so they worked from each perspective, talking to groups about their interest in the issue and let them handle their conversations with their groups. I think this is an interesting model. Activate the needs from within the level. Find allies and let those who “speak the language” guide the conversation. Some issue will be easier than others, for sure, but this has to be better than what is happening now.

But this will require some skills. We need to stop the hyper fear driven, exaggerated dialogue that turns the others perspective into some absurdity. Pipe dream, for now it seems so.


#43

If progressives were to uncouple the extensive fundamental change list of demands, they might be more effect at getting what they want.
The “all or nothing, no price is too high for everyone else to pay” approach doesn’t leave much room for dialog and consensus building, inclusion and compromise. Like Ray was saying, if you don’t already you should move to CA, CO, WA, OR, IL or NY. No price is too high, right?


#44

Total agreement there. No price is too high for them to pay either, until they get the bill. There is just a disconnect. Saw a NYT article about a climate scientist challenging other climate scientist to learn more about world economies. This is the thing, there is no perfect answer, solving a problem in one area creates more in another. That’s the hardest thing I have to convey in my line of work. Ce la vie, but I think we finally landed on a consensus! Go Green


#45

The metamoderna MHC is a pretty summary model of classic planning and systems engineering (i.e. it’s more a shallow popularization of well established knowledge domains), most importantly explained in non-jargon-ese.
Biggest issue I see is the trap that we all fall into - egoistic conflation of “understand” with “synthesize”, which enables arm chair philosophers to make grand sweeping statements on how “it oughta be” completely devoid of realities (remember the old saying, "if only coulda, woulda, shoulda got the job done).

I understand that the carrot cake we had yesterday was amazing. But me understanding it was amazing does not mean I can synthesize an amazing carrot cake, nor manage a bakery to create amazing carrot cakes effectively.

So now since I what to “make it simple” so I get all activist on the cake industry and how pitch unfair it is that amazing carrot cake isn’t 50 cents/slice. We create the Bureau of Cake to regulate carrot cake pricing and production in order to put my DEI and/or Military industrial complex buddies into jobs programs, since we’re the activists that made it happen. Now just what are the chances that you and I end up with better, cheaper, more readily available carrot cakes? Or that we will develop the next revolutionary Parsnip Cake?

My money is on the Marscapone family who’s been baking for generations to put out higher quality, competitively priced, more readily available carrot cakes than a government employee. As long as the government leaves them (minimal regulations) alone to bake and sell cakes, and doesn’t tax them too much (or I stop buying carrot cakes when they get too expensive). This grotesque characterization for government expansion that the Marscapone family is obviously baking in toxins (which would kill their business) and wasting energy (that they have to pay for) and flushing raw cake batter into the sewers to pollute the environment (bad PR and they would have to pay for in order to then flush) is a power grabbing justification unfounded in reality.

Who would you go to for your daughters birthday cake: Bureau of Cake or the Marscapone Family Bakery? :birthday::cake::cupcake:

Integral Theory has a fairly tight lens on SEL’ish type “development”, but not much if any depth outside the socio/psycho/politico lens. That’s the issue with making everything about “If only it were this way or that, then i would be happy”

https://metamoderna.org/what-is-the-mhc/