It is interesting on how the two franchise scripts handle differences and disagreement, and the fan bases that might prefer which more and which less.
I personally love them both, and anything sfx/space. But what do you mean how they handle differences, disagreements?
My sense is that Star Wars is more playing with cultural archetypes (deep structures) at red/amber stages (lots of room for heroism and good vs. evil narratives) while Star Trek is playing with more ethical questions and cognitive structures at orange/green/teal stages. And as someone who was raised on both, there is more than enough room in me for all of it!
A couple pieces y’all might enjoy:
Well, I guess the main thing is conflict in Star Wars is more action based, while in Star Trek there is a lot more Dialogue. As a 6th grader I actually found Star Trek I difficult to watch and boring, but as a 1st Grader I stayed up well past my bedtime, stood in line for one whole performance, and was wide eyed the whole time. The Star Trek original syndicated series was the exception of course.
With conflict, Star Wars is very binary. “Once you start down the dark path, forever will it control your destiny.” Kill or be killed - or as you said earlier, the dominance and submission cycle. In the prequels this was reversed so that the Jedi were in the dominant position and had a kind of dodgey morality - like raising and using clones for warfare instead of droids.
Star Trek (generally) found a third way to resolve conflict. Neither side got exactly what they wanted, but both got something acceptable. There were a few cases of only absolute defeat / surrender options as with The Wrath Khan. But for the most part the solution found was not somethng either party could envision at the beginning.
Glad that we’re shifting out of the political frame, perhaps almost agreeing 
. While necessary, rarely are the actual solutions in the political domain.
You use a term here that’s not so often used these days - opportunities. How can we help everyone be positioned to have as many opportunities as possible in life?
First and foremost is to get the government out of the family. I don’t know about everyone else on IL, but when young - neural pathways forming, figuring out life, testing boundaries - my parents and particularly my dad were the biggest influencers. And yes, part of this was fear knowing that if I did something stupid my dads belt would be stinging my butt. Now this happened maybe 10 times in my life, but knowing the boundaries enabled me to develop within the “acceptable zones” (for the most part) of society.
With the government destroying black families through social welfare (think UBI) or granting some of the Native American tribes reservations, they have been condemned too horrible “development conveyors”. Which is better - a black child growing up with his mother and father? Or the child growing up with father absent and mother on welfare?
Which is better - the Indian kids that grew up integrated, picked on and called names with the same expectations of performance in the general society or the kids growing up on socially isolated reservations?
Is the black or indian kid really served during their developmental years with restitution dangling at the end of a Black Studies/Indian Studies program?
Obviously some kids will “fall through the cracks”. I went to school with a bunch of them - some indian, some black, some german descent, some irish descent, some gay, some of all identities. Does it even make sense to re-engineer out entire social fabric and govermental structure for the 3 of 100 kids that “don’t work out”.
This is all well and good. Go Meta, Go Trans, Go Neo but at the end of the day are we addressing root causes but actually doubling down on failed policies with yet more disconnected, counter productive “academic” solutions.
If the Black and Indian and Mexican kids are not held to the same standards as every other kid in the US, you are promulgating a caste system that dooms them to mediocrity at very best.
You know the political choice that is “best”. It’s ok to do the right thing.
Are you all caught up on The Expanse? Best sci fi show on television, in my view. Just watched episode 1 of the new (and final) season last night!
@raybennett Yes, I see what you mean. Star Wars I think has more content worthy of a laugh, and that’s something. Plus, in one of the Star Wars films, The Hu Band were on the soundtrack, and that counts for something too!
@corey-devos I’ve seen the first four seasons of The Expanse; there’s only six seasons, right? I have some catching up to do. The visual of ALL THAT BLUE stays with me, in my mind’s eye right now. There should be more sci-fi movies in 3-D, like Gravity; I was giddy all through that. Of course I couldn’t watch them at home, but if I ever chance into a theater again…
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New to ILP, but search this thread for any perspective from Jacques Ellul who contributed wisely to the topic of “Propaganda”. Here are a few quotes of his to generate additional questions (potential value added) and not neccesarily any answers …
So many posts in this discussion are paradoxically propaganda, I thought it would be good to post an example of the opposite.
Here is the opposite of propaganda:
Allegations backed by facts to be settled in a court of law after all relevant evidence and facts have been reviewed.
With legal and financial penalties to the losers:
Wherefore, Plaintiff respectfully requests an award of the following relief:
A. A declaratory judgment that the actions described herein constitute a violation of
42 U.S.C. § 1985(1); 42 U.S.C. § 1986; and the torts of assault, battery, and intentional infliction
of emotional distress.
B. Injunctive relief enjoining Defendants from engaging in future violations of
42 U.S.C. § 1985(1); 42 U.S.C. § 1986; and the torts of assault, battery, and intentional infliction
of emotional distress.
C. Compensatory and statutory damages in an amount to be determined at trial as to
damages incurred by the District resulting from the events alleged above.
D. Punitive damages at an amount to be determined at trial.
E. Attorneys’ fees and court costs under 42 U.S.C. § 1988.
F. Such other relief as the Court deems just and proper.
JURY DEMAND
The District demands a trial by jury for all claims so triable
I thought this study was interesting, which suggests that Republicans consolidate more around symbolism and identity issues, and Democrats around policy issues.
Which - ironically - means Republicans by far make more vote choices based on “identity politics” rather than policy, internal morality, ethics, common sense and so on.
There were signs of it before 2008, but yeah - 2008 was the year Republicans gave up all other policy issues as secondary to the (failed) effort to make Obama a 1 term President.
When he again won in 2012, rather than accept defeat and change their ways, the Republican machine doubled down on this identity politics.
This is one reason why I believe December 2012 actually was the end of an age as per the Mayan Calendar. It was the month when reality came crashing down that the Age of Aquarius is not all rainbows and waterfalls.
Here is the kind of thing I only 10% “believe”, but I believe by way of analogous thinking it is a productive thought experiment to suspend disbelief momentarily and allow the ideas to follow one after the other:
https://www.thehermitage.org.uk/blog/dark-side-of-aquarius
@superbert. Nice link. It’s perfect also in the Mass Formation thread.
With so much material available via direct publication by authors/creators the relative influence of national news-tainment is actually very low. Fox gets roughly 1M viewers for their most watched shows on a daily basis with CNN, MSNBC combined attracting about 1M. Out of the 200Mish adults in USthat really isn’t much reach.
Lots of long form in depth content gets similar viewership on YouTube. I have hope the we grow out of this phase of divisive aperspectival madness.
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@LaWanna
It think very important that we do address systemic issues, meanwhile help people develop internally “beyond” whatever obstacles they face in life. Life was hardly “fair” when I grew up, went to school, developed my career, lived my life. Should we ruminate on the kids that picked on us in grade school? Or perhaps the teasing we may have done? Should we wallow in the fact that lots of kids inherited their family business, when others had to pay for their own college, or go to work in the factory?
Do you want your children to stand tall, face life’s challenges, get up when knocked down, and do great things for themselves and others? Or do you really want the children of our community (yes our American children in our community) to be “groomed” to be lifelong victims? Which of these people will grow into adults with the most agency over their lives?
Not buying into your projection that I see myself as a “potential victim of some possible future apocalyptic moment”. Let’s look at a couple other possible victim scenarios “I might be seeing in myself”.
Do I see myself as a potential “victim of an auto accident” because I have car insurance, safe tires, good brakes and at least a 1/4 tank of gas? Do I plan on “victimizing” other drivers by taking out full coverage auto insurance?
Do I see myself a “victim” of civil unrest by having 18#'s of a 20# bag of rice in the pantry and 3 of 4 propane bottles filled? Or am I “efficient” by keeping my grill bottles full and “cost effective” by buying rice in bulk?
Does locking my doors at night mean I live in fear of home invasion, assault, rape, robbery and murder?
Do I avoid the couple of blocks where tweaked out people stumbling into the street because I’m afraid or because I don’t want to actually use the personal injury car insurance I’ve taken out?
Does having a fairly robust sense of how our systems work and taking some very basic “risk mitigation” efforts constitute “living from victimhood”? Do I “feel like a victim” of any of these things? Or am I simply taking basic precautions that cost nothing, impact no one, and potentially might help us in highly unlikely event something very detrimental cases?
On the right you will hear Fox and friends call this Leftist scenario where the Administrative State “makes everyone’s life easy” the “Nanny State”.
Do you think it oppressive that the majority of people are not interested in signing up for this “Nanny State” that intends to groom victims?
Here’s one …
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Love this! Quite the facility for imitating animal sounds and use of onomatopoeia–common to shamans and shaman-types. Roooooooarrrrr! Meow meow.
Is not “taking basic precautions” (against food scarcity during the 2020 phase of the pandemic, as you spoke of yourself doing, in a prior post here) in alignment with seeing self as a POTENTIAL victim of circumstances in the world? And hey, nothing wrong with that, with prepping in general.
We are in total agreement on this.
You know, I’ve been doing a little study on conservatism and I can see its presence and flow in many of your posts at this site. Correct me if I’m wrong, but…
You basically believe in tradition and custom and convention, with maintenance of the status quo, OR, reversion to earlier conditions.
You are averse to cultural initiatives for social change, believe in an “organic society” with minimal or gradual change; not radical change.
You believe in hierarchy and authority, except you want only a limited role for the federal government.
You emphasize individual rights, and, property rights.
You believe in traditional moral values, generally as stemming from the religion of Christianity.
I read about the modern “Father of American Conservatism” Russell Kirk, who stated that conservatism is a ‘state of mind, a type of (inner) character, and supportive of an enduring moral order.’ Kirk believed that conservatism and political ideology/identity are or should be divorced from one another: “conservatism is the negation of ideology,” he said. https://kirkcenter.org/conservatism/ten-conservative-principles
I understand Kirk’s idea of this last point on conservatism was rejected by the Republican party, who wanted the political philosophy of conservatism and the social holon of Republicanism joined. (Side note: Corey has again and again tried to separate these two in discussions; do you see that?)
You seem to be in the camp that has joined them, with a little libertarianism thrown in. Am I right? Wrong?
If I’m right, do you see how joining them muddies the waters when trying to discuss certain issues? Or maybe I should say, it muddies the waters for me. I think I would be in Kirk’s camp on the last point, that conservative philosophy should be separated from political identification/party. Because it is possible for even ‘leftists’ to be conservative in philosophy on certain issues, but not be Republicans. Just as it is possible for people on the right to be ‘progressive’ on certain issues but not be Democrats.
Just streaming some consciousness here, and would appreciate your thoughts.
Time for breakfast!
Good morning LaWanna.
Hope you’re enjoying our crisp mountain weather. I didn’t even notice the wind until seeing all the pine needles and branches scattered in the yard this morning.
It “might” be a harsh winter coming so you chop twice the fire wood you normally use, which you can always use for cooking next spring/summer. Is that fear of “victim of circumstances of the world” or simply not being a lazy dumb-ass?
If we were to map the Victim - Oppressor Paradigm into Integral Zones/Quadrants then compare/contrast to Stoic simply doing what needs to be done. What Integral altitude does Victim - Oppressor spring forth from?
The Victim - Oppressor Paradigm is strong in you LaWanna. Your facility with language is broad and deep so I know you know that “language matters”. It’s an expression of our state of mind and also iteratively influences our state of mind.
Would Victim - Oppressor be considered part of the Progressive or Democratic holons?
Happy to reply to rest of your note in another response.
Cheers!
P.S. Thanks for the link on Russell Kirk - I’m not familiar with him. Starting here with Scruton’s discussion on Kirk (linked).
Cold here, with a frozen dusting of snow on the ground, ice everywhere. I “battened down the hatches” last night and good thing I did–a few outdoor misplacements of things I neglected. A big pile of leaves at the front door. But yes, enjoying!
Perhaps both 
although the word ‘fear’ might be too strong of a word in the example you gave.
I would imagine it has been a part of the human experience from the very beginning, so from the archaic stage onwards.
Actually, I rarely think about victims/oppressors, but I do not deny the reality that both exist in the world. At the level of individual interactions, as well as at the level of collectives (e.g. Hitler and the Holocaust, to name a really obvious example). And I have stated a couple of times that I don’t think it’s a good idea to encourage people to base their identity on either stance (although Hitler might have benefitted psychologically if he could have seen the ‘oppressor’ in his identity).
I would go a step further and say that I have actually helped people to see that they were indeed a ‘victim’ when I thought it was therapeutic for them. For instance, children sexually molested or physically abused who blame themselves for it. But that’s just a starting point in therapeutic situations such as these, certainly not the end-all.
No more than it is a part of the Republican holon. And it’s more the extremists in each party that really “go to town” with this dynamic; they just differ on the issues in which they play out the dynamic.
Honestly, on the whole prepper issue - if people don’t have the capability of living for several days without being supplied things through the “grid” - I just see that as foolish.
It used to be just a few Hurricane, tornado and flood regions that needed to worry. But increasingly we see strains on the infrastructure such as in the Texas electric fiasco, and more recently the COVID lockdown.
I personally live in an area where Hurricanes are a serious thing to prepare for. So yeah, it is pretty much in the “dumb ass” category to not be prepared for trends that are increasing in frequency and severity.
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