I used to sleep with a co-worker every night, until I changed jobs. She never gave me a promo nor did i promo her. She is still today ine of my closest mentors, as i also help coach her also. Who are you to dictate your morality on others.
And might shock you that I’ve seen more overt corruption at the hands of women than men. Interestingly I haven’t seen any corruption from the LGBTQIA++ community.
Have you ever slept with someone you work with?
Biden FDA looking to implement systemic racist policies.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2022/06/16/proposed_menthol_ban_targets_americans_of_color_147747.html
But supports LGBTQIA+ community along with Marlboro
Seems like you’ve flooding the zone with fake/nonsense stories. Are we deflecting from the Jan 6 hearings that show beyond doubt how the Republican administration was actively trying to extinguish democracy?
Thought it was a $9M made-for-tv retirement party for Liz, Adam and a bunch of their buddies.
Shouldn’t we be looking to hold all perspectives here?
The Inquisiton, aka Impeachment 3.0, is seemingly of little interest compared to the economic Trail of Tears destroying from bottom up Americans. Biden will earn a seat right between Carter and Andy Jackson in the annals of history.
Seems the Systemic Voter Supression machine dealt an interim blow to Democracy.
Ah, more deflections.
So in your mind, the fact that the Republican administration very clearly attempted to extinguish democracy is less important than your political team winning contests? Are you saying that public perceptions are more important than evidence of the most serious anti-democratic crime against our Constitution in modern history? Nothing matters as long as your team wins?
If you think Biden’s legacy will be a joke, how about the guy who literally conspired to illegally steal the Presidency?
And isn’t it funny how this “inquisition” primarily consists of Republicans testifying against Trump? I find that hilarious.
It’s a shame that it’s so easy for ideology and personality cults to totally eclipse constitutional ethics.
Welcome to the party Corey.
We’ve already covered this month’s ago.
The President of the US has a charter to protect the US and the interests of its people. This extends to Executive Privelage. Let’s assume President 45 did see significant anomalies in the election. Know it was a head scratcher for me to to go to bed with 45 clearly winning, then coincidentally across multiple states in Democratically controlled counties just enough votes came in to hand ot to Old Joe. It’s actually his duty to do something about it.
Just as the Congress can and should utilize their oversight powers, as they are doing right now.
So here we are. Congress has formed a likely illegitimate committee to investigate likely not illegal and/or not prosecutable actions, all to create a public spectacle for likely political gain.
So here we are yet again. After the dame discussion.
They likely can’t charge 45 with anything and if they do he likely won’t get convicted.
Maybe it works politically for the DNC and saves them from the “populists” that are too stupid to see that the DNC is their savior working in their best interests.
Politically, I think it backfires and hastens the DNC dissolution. Let’s say Liz takes out Trump. Does that create a MAGA Martyr creating even an even faster dissolution of the DNC, or slow the decline or trun momentum?
So let’s say the Swamp gets 45. Does that save a few House seats? Couple in the Senate maybe? Create space for a viable DNC in 24?
And what does this mean from an Integral perspective. I think regardless of the Made-for-TV retirement party outcome, impact will be a healing of Mean Green/Red psychosis in society. It won’t be easy as many have bought in to the “I’m getting everything for free”. What happens when the disappointment turns inward on the Red/Green kabal? It won’t be pretty.
What will then emerge is likely what we are discussing in Trickle Down or the old Tangerine threads.
What are your thoughts on how this plays out Integrally?
“Welcome to the party.” I can only take that as admission that, yes, extinguishing democracy is okay as long as your party finishes on top.
I have a feeling that you haven’t been watching all these hearings, just the spin around them from whatever info terrain you’re plugged into. Or am I wrong? Have you watched all three hearings, or just editorials about them?
There is no plausible deniability left here. It’s all been stripped away. It has been proven that Trump was well informed from every angle that the claims of election fraud were false, and only the crackpots were still telling him they were true. And every case ended up getting thrown out of court, and many lawyers disbarred, because the claims were so egregiously false. So your premise that Trump had any room to rationally doubt the election outcomes is provably false. And even the crackpots that remained around Trump after “team normal” was given the boot, knew that the claims were bunk, as were the legal grounds for their plan to have Pence overthrow the election results for Trump. Eastman even said he knew the Supreme Court would vote against him “9-0”, before preemptively asking for a pardon from Trump for crimes that he therefore knew he committed.
It was a deeply cynical, corrupt, illegal, and wholly un-American attempt to hijack and, by effect, extinguish our democracy.
Really, what you are saying only reinforces my concern that today’s GOP is primarily driven by three things: nihilism (the Constitution doesn’t actually matter, despite lip service), opportunism (the only thing that matters is winning more power), and narcissism (Trump and his personality cult).
What’s really interesting to me, is this is very clearly showing a rupture that runs through the center of the GOP as a party. These are Republicans testifying against Republicans, after all. Today’s hearing was basically a three hour celebration of Mike Pence. They are giving Republican voters like you an opportunity to actually take in all the objective, undeniable evidence, to rethink their continued allegiance to Trump (or at least unwillingness to admit his blatant malfeasance), to admit how malignant he and his crimes are, and to realign themselves with the white hat Republicans (such as Pence and many of the witnesses), all without feeling like they would abandoning their party. But, alas, the opportunity hardly seems to be getting through, because as you mention above, the people who need to see this won’t be watching. If they did, the cognitive dissonance would simply be too much.
Instead they are getting rid of Cheney, for the simple reason that she is one of the only courageous people left in the GOP willing to criticize and hold Trump accountable for his crimes. There’s literally no other reason. Today’s GOP knows they absolutely cannot lose Trump’s supporters if they hope to win elections, so the only option is tune their political and media machines to the noise of total nihilism. The Constitution doesn’t actually matter, regardless of what we say, all that matters is maintaining power.
Here’s my personal integral analysis, as of this moment. Consider it a rough draft of personal reflections.
I think what Trump did — and what the GOP did and has done to cover for him — is blatantly, objectively, and profanely wrong. It was undemocratic, illegal, and in violation of both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution. I believe this is self-evidently true for all healthy altitudes from amber to turquoise, and believe the majority of Trump supporters at those altitudes would likely experience a great amount of cognitive dissonance while watching these hearings, having their plausible deniability stripped away, and continuing their support. And I believe that bringing these crimes into the light and holding the criminals accountable is far, far more important than any popularity polls, or any person’s political career.
Here’s what’s alive for me. It’s looking mostly at values and worldview. Of course this is a very rough sketch, and people are far more complex than this.
Magenta: whatever my clan thinks.
Red: Narcissism and conspiracy theories (a product of narcissism). Trump was right to do this. Might makes right. Fuck the libtards. Personality cults (such as Qanon) are a hallmark of the red altitude, now and throughout history.
Unhealthy amber: Party and ideology over country. We hate the left more than we love the country — which means that the ends therefore justify the means, especially in war. We may believe the election really was stolen, despite having no objective evidence, or we might just pretend to believe, so we don’t risk losing power and public support. “If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism, they will abandon democracy.” -David Frum ®
Healthy amber: This is profane, unethical, and clearly violates the most sacred core intentions of the Founders and the God-given Constitution they delivered to and for the world. All criminals should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Unhealthy orange: It’s only ever about winning. Optics are more important than ethics. How can I spin or deflect this so I and/or my team can profit, either materially, politically, or personally?
Healthy Orange: The evidence clearly demonstrates that this was an objective violation of both the letter and the spirit of the Constitutional process, one of the most self-evidently rational systems of governance the world has ever produced, and founded on the very principle of the peaceful transfer of power. Allowing this to go unpunished drives a stake in the heart of our democracy, and will only ensure it happens again.
Unhealthy green: This was obviously illegal, but it doesn’t matter, nothing will happen. Power structures are such that no one will ever be held accountable. Nothing matters, we’re fucked.
Healthy green: This was obviously and blatantly immoral and illegal, and is demonstrative of how oligarchic power structures continue to roll over the people and even the rule of law. Hard-won rights and civil protections are now seriously at risk. We need to rise up, protest, and take back our democracy from the nihilists, opportunists, and narcissists who are actively trying to destroy it.
Teal: I agree with all those healthy versions of myself below, and can feel all those responses within me. This is yet another example of how life conditions are arranging themselves in ways that only integral approaches can resolve. Every stage of development is on fire, and pushing away from every other stage, and it is causing the entire spiral — and the structures that support it — to collapse on itself. The world is burning, and everything is perfect. Everything is right on schedule, and things will continue to get better, even while they will likely become worse. But evolution can only happen through us, not outside or around us, which means that I need to meditate, eat my veggies, show up as fully and impactfully as I can within my own sphere of influence, and find the opportunities and leverage points to help the human spiral pull itself back together.
Well, sexual harassment is actually illegal. It’s not morality - it’s the law.
Apparently you also don’t know the simple difference between morality and ethics so how can I talk to someone who doesn’t understand English?
I was hoping to see a by Quadrant / by Zone analysis on both sides of the discussion but it seems your “analysis” is rooted more on self validation and political/legal condemnation than understanding what’s going on as a nation.
It’s actually much worse than you think. Not only do I not listen to the made-for-tv hearings, I don’t even listen to the editorials. I figure this will sort itself out pretty quickly just as that Bronco game score won’t change if I watch from home or wait for the replays.
So what now happens in the Real World?
Does the DNC turn momentum their way, or have they accelerated their self immolation with the hearings?
If Trump is cancelled, does he become a Holy Martyr of MAGA with an emboldened? Or does this weaken or even blunt the populist movement?
Or do we devolve into anarchy?
And more importantly for us here, does this slow or accelerate the coming of 2nd Tier?
Dave the fact checker lists The Politico as a Left Center publication.
@corey-devos It’s stuff like this that draws the “Made-for-TV” critique. If “justice” were the goal, wouldn’t they engage heavily with the Biden/Garland DOJ?
“My understanding is they want to have access to our work product. And we told them, no, we’re not giving that to anybody,” he said last month.
“The Select Committee’s failure to grant the Department access to these transcripts complicates the Department’s ability to investigate and prosecute those who engaged in criminal conduct in relation to the January 6 attack on the Capitol,” the department wrote in a letter Wednesday, signed by Criminal Division chief Kenneth Polite Jr. and National Security Division head Matthew Olsen, as well as the U.S. attorney for D.C., Matthew Graves.
The Justice Department officials said it was “critical” that the panel provide prosecutors “copies of the transcripts of all its witness interviews.”
The letter was the latest reflection of escalating tensions between House investigators and Justice Department prosecutors in recent weeks. It marked the first time prosecutors directly and publicly accused the select committee of undermining efforts to impose criminal penalties on those responsible for the storming of the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.
Ah the head in the sand approach. I totally understand, actually watching and informing yourself of the incontrovertible evidence would incur too much uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. Something tells me if these were hearings about Biden or Hillary you’d be watching with popcorn though, like you were with Sussman until that turned out to be bunk. 
The DOJ will receive all transcripts. The panel is doing its best to maintain neutrality, while Garland and his team are watching carefully. They are entering all the facts into the public record before any major actions are taken.
But this does tell me I can soundly ignore your opinions on this topic, because you willingly choose to ignore the incontrovertible evidence. Instead you compare blatantly anti-constitutional behavior to a “made for tv broncos game”. Exactly the sort of nihilism and opportunism I was taking about. At least we now know how much the GOP and their media wing actually values the letter and spirit of the Constitution.
I don’t think my analysis that “stealing elections is blatantly and obviously wrong, up and down the spiral” is very self-serving at all. I think it’s pretty self-evident. Ignoring or minimizing this because it makes your team look bad, however, is tremendously self-serving. But I get it — win at all costs, always double down, never apologize.
“We can’t give them full access to our product. That would be premature at this point, because we haven’t completed our work.”
Sounds reasonable to me.
The DOJ is supposed to remain independent, which is why the Jan 6 commission is taking the “clean” approach. They will finish their investigation, and then will turn over their report to the DOJ once it is completed. However, if there are any criminal trials that are being delated due to a lack of transcripts (which apparently there are), I personally think the commission should prioritize getting those out. Otherwise, I want this to be as “clean” as possible, especially considering the outright and egregious corruption they are investigating.
Let’s run a scenario up the flag pole.
You say Trump was justified in his efforts to overthrow the election, because he has a responsibility to “protect the nation” in the face of so much election fraud (which was then proven to be totally and completely false).
In the 2016 election, there was also a ton of controversy around international meddling in our election. It seems that you believe that Biden actually would have been justified throwing out the election results and declaring Hillary the winner. Obama has the right to protect the nation, after all! Or is that different, for some reason?
I mean, the evidence about Russian meddling turned out to have far more substance than Trump’s Big Lie about the stolen election. There was an entire Republican-led bi-partisan commission that concluded exactly that.
Which means Gore should have declared himself the winner in 2000! Right? Because the VP totally has that power, right?
The good news is, all the left needs to do now is make up a bunch of stories about the 2024 election being stolen, and Kamala can then decide the winner. Democracy!
This is the precedent you believe should be set. Fortunately/unfortunately, the left is not nearly bold enough to attempt something like this. But the right sure is! Hell, they are already doing it again.
It turns out Trump was partially right. “I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters."
Hell, he could publicly run the Constitution through the shredder, on camera in broad daylight, and he wouldn’t lose voters. Because that is exactly what he is currently doing, right at this very moment. And you are apparently one of the voters he will never lose 
So not spending hours watching a Clown Circus is deflection. Right…
But for what it’s worth I did tune into some of the non-linear time hopping Tarantino-esque testimony clips.
I’m sorry, did you circle back to the “what difference does it make” ponderings?
Any thoughts on what difference it all makes? Accelerates 2nd Teir, pauses, or perhaps we see a Tangerine altitude unfold in 2023?
Choosing to label it a “clown circus” without actually watching is absolutely a deflection, yes. The evidence being presented is incontrovertible. You are deciding to ignore and minimize it. Which, again, tells me how much you actually value the Constitution. A useful political weapon to be used against your political opponents, but not something you actually want your team held accountable to.
And it’s quite a turn from what you said to me last week:
Have no fear that “people that really need to see this won’t watch” isn’t the case for me. I’m not convinced, but at least questioning whether you were right all this time.
I kinda knew that wouldn’t last 
I’m sorry, did you circle back to the “what difference does it make” ponderings?
I did. I said:
“I believe that bringing these crimes into the light and holding the criminals accountable is far, far more important than any popularity polls, or any person’s political career.”
Your question is a distraction. But I will say this — due to the way information moves in Zone 7, we now have a thoroughly deconstructed set of Zone 4 cultural permissions which allow people to put their heads in the sand and pretend none of this matters, while democracy is actively being dismantled by Trumpian fascism. It ensures that, as you again said, “the people who need to see this won’t be watching”.
And this is the goal, of course — these crimes make Watergate look like a walk in the park, and we know how much right-wing media was designed in response to Watergate, to ensure that something like that (holding a Republican president accountable for violating the Constitution) never happens again. Winning!
Any thoughts on what difference it all makes? Accelerates 2nd Teir, pauses, or perhaps we see a Tangerine altitude unfold in 2023?
Already answered that. Do you actually read the responses I take time writing to you?
“This is yet another example of how life conditions are arranging themselves in ways that only integral approaches can resolve. Every stage of development is on fire, and pushing away from every other stage, and it is causing the entire spiral — and the structures that support it — to collapse on itself. The world is burning, and everything is perfect. Everything is right on schedule, and things will continue to get better, even while they will likely become worse. But evolution can only happen through us, not outside or around us, which means that I need to meditate, eat my veggies, show up as fully and impactfully as I can within my own sphere of influence, and find the opportunities and leverage points to help the human spiral pull itself back together.”
In other words, evolutionary progress is not linear, there are many peaks and valleys along the way, especially distributed across an entire population. We are very likely heading into a dark valley in the short term, as the GOP social holon is given more emboldened permission to hijack and dismantle our democracy. But this will itself create more evolutionary tension that will eventually erupt through the surface.
So what’s going to happen? Knowing that our Zone 4 collective moral compass is completely out of whack, I personally see many possible scenarios:
Scenario 1: the DOJ receives the transcripts and rightfully prosecutes Trump, Eastman, Giuliani, et al. This sparks violence among the right, and possibly grows the coming red wave, at which point political vengeance becomes the primary goal (as if it wasn’t already). Likelihood: 20%.
Scenario 2: the DOJ receives the transcripts, but decides not to prosecute Trump and surrounding criminals, in fear that this would spark too much civil unrest and violence. The GOP is emboldened to repeat their coup in future elections. Likelihood: 40%
Scenario 3: somehow the evidence being surfaced by the hearings actually makes it into a critical mass of Republican voters, whose cognitive dissonance pushes them toward aligning with the white hats instead of the black hats, and begin to push malignant Trumpism out of the party, even while knowing this will hinder their short-term electoral opportunities. Likelihood: <5%
Scenario 4: No DOJ prosecutions, but the incontrovertible evidence that has been put into the public record, plus the hijacked Supreme Court’s restriction of 4th, 5th, and 14th Amendment rights, galvanizes the left and emboldens their turnout in 2022 and 2024. Likelihood: 15%
Scenario 5: none of the above, something else entirely, because emergence, by its nature, cannot be predicted. Likelihood: 20%.
@corey-devos
Here is what will happen when you look at the internal motivations of politicians and career public servants:
There will be a repeat of the last 5-10 investigations and charges against a few fall guys. They will not charge Trump but will say they are gathering evidence and a case against him, if anything at all.
2 more years and it will be an election year and the Justce department can delay further until after the election - and then make a descision based on which way the wind is blowing at that time.
This course of action is the good old “show you are visibly doing something but don’t do too much nor take any risks” that is learned early in government careers and politics
Ok Corey
Sorry Corey. This didn’t strike me as a “what difference does it make”. Wasn’t really much to engage with.
This is an odd twister. If feels like you want to focus on “feet on the street” recommendations for those you don’t agree with, yet then soar into an outer solar system orbit when it comes to what you personally would do or would want those you agree with to do. We’ve had this discuss several times in the past - the domain or quadrant shifting when uncomfortable. What do you call it, the 3rd Person God view? Very authoritative, incredibly judgemental and dismissive, and full on dialog killer.
I’m not the only person that’s pointed this out. Just drop a 3 page Integral-splain and watch the dialog die. Perhaps that’s your intent.
Yes actually I read the responses - see my previous response. It comes across as an anti-discourse for you to want to roto-root those you don’t agree with (GOP, MAGA, Qanon, Trump,…), then blast off into the noosphere yourself and for those you support. It’s not conducive to finding commonality, then jointly carrying forward.
Since you worked in a lower case integral, I assume you’re not specifically referring to Integral Theory in the vein of Ken Wilber.
This I don’t completely agree with - “But evolution can only happen through us, not outside or around us, which means that I need to meditate, eat my veggies, show up as fully and impactfully as I can within my own sphere of influence, and find the opportunities and leverage points to help the human spiral pull itself back together.” You have very clearly stated that simply mandating human development is likely the ONLY way to move forward. If the world takes a different approach than you are promoting, don’t you think it could easily just steam roll right over a few thousand Integral Theorists? Seems to be it easily could.
Thanks for laying out your 5 scenarios. It is interesting that in 4 of 5 scenarios, the only actor(s) you mention are the GOP even while today the Democrats control of the Senate, House, Whitehouse and Administrative State. Do you not see the Democrats as serious actors on the US stage?
They are well written to appeal to your chosen audience. If you really wanted to think multi-perspectively you might practice dropping that condemnation and judgement. Usually your words belie your thinking - and it’s clear you have no interest in finding any common ground with the upcoming “red wave”.
@raybennett Your outline is highly likely A couple of Manaforts will get fried, but the Swamp is scared shit-less of the congressional hearings and depositions they will be going through starting in January - emails, texts, call logs, notes, bank statements. Then the full sea change in 2024 with OMG Trump redeaux and we’ll find out just how intentional and premeditated the gas prices, inflation, baby formula shortages, booster shots, royalty payments, Afghanistan withdrawl, delay in Ukraine support, laptop from hell, media/DNC collusions actually were all “by design”.
There is a silver lining in that as the DNC self immolates, the GOP will likely fragment into Right, Right Center and Left Center factions to incorporate all of the US.
Have a great weekend fellas!
Most historians and scholars who study fascism and coups say the only way to interrupt continuing coup attempts is through criminal indictment of the people involved. I doubt that the DOJ is totally ignorant of this thinking. Whether Trump is indicted by DOJ is questionable (although there’s still the case in and by the state of Georgia), but it’s less questionable, imo, regarding the lawyers involved: Eastman, Giuliani, perhaps others. We’re only half-way through the hearings; who knows what else may come out?