Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

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#1850

Speaking of expanding horizons:
Look - another criminal charged.
Wait - this is the same criminal that Trump pardoned. He did ANOTHER crime?

Remember that Big beautiful wall that taxpayers paid for but was never really built? Looks like Democrats were right about that and there was quite a bit of financial shenanigans.
And @excecutive - you want to gaslight that the left is making all this up I suppose?

Fortunately as more real information gets out about the actions of Trump, the more voting Americans realize they do not want him as president again. More than 60% now believe he acted illegally or unethically in holding Top Secret information about Nuclear capabilities amongst his unsecured personal papers, accounting documents and magazines.

MAGA extremists will have quite a bit of gaslighting to do to convince these 60% of Americans it was all just a hoax.

https://nypost.com/2022/09/08/most-say-trump-acted-illegally-or-unethically-by-keeping-classified-docs-poll/

But wait - there’s more! You know all that fundraising everyone suspected was illegal? Well, looks like the heat is increasing on that. The DOJ called Trump’s bluff and bluster and now that he’s actually calling for violence and civil war - they have nothing to lose by confronting him with all his documented crimes.


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#1851

No gaslighting, I think the corruption is everywhere and neither side is clean and honest. I just shared the other-side of the story … everyone is capable of reading and making up their own mind.


#1852

Regardless of the information warfare, propagada and basic gaslighitng of the right the past 2 years in trying to nomralize the events of Jan 6, 2021 …

A federal Judge has established judicial precedent that a man cannot hold office because he clearly participated in the Jan 6 insurrection.
This federal Judge has also set the precedent by clearly stating that the events of Jan 6 were in fact an insurrection.


#1853

How can people who are so absolutely and completely fooled by Information Warfare and Propaganda again and again not see it when what they were told to believe turns out to be a big dud time and time again?

This week, we revisit “Russia Gate”. In Sep - Oct 2021> I said it was a big “Nothingburger” while the standard true believers of Right Wing Media Gaslighting swallowed the propaganda hook, line and sinker and thought they would FINALLY collapse the entire Democratic power structure.

Oooh, delusions, delusions.
What a terrible tangled web they weave when first they begin to deceive (themselves, that is lol. Nobody else was deceived except the “true believers”)

Well, this week the side show that was Durham probe is finally DEAD. Nothing happened except the Right got all excited for a while.
In other words, like so many dozens of other things we’ve seen the past few years by our resident right wing true believers - one big fat cholesterol laden nothingburger.

Still waiting …

The hope for Trump supporters was that someone was going to crack open the case and show that the investigation was cooked up by Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, presumably with the help of Bill Ayers, George Soros, and the ghost of Richard J. Daley. Many times when I’ve written about malfeasance by Trump over the past three years, I have received emails from angry supporters telling me to just wait until John Durham blows it open. I’m still waiting.


#1854

Short quick list of other “just wait, you’ll see” nothingburgers over the years (that Durham was supposed to uncover)

  • Benghazi
  • Pizza Gate
  • Hillary’s emails
  • Hunter Biden’s crimes in Ukraine
  • Barack Obama wire tapping
  • Obama doing something vague but it would be revealed
  • Carter Page
  • Somehow George Soros’ involvement would also be revealed

Hope springs eternal for the True MAGA Believers as each one of these in turn has promised that everything will be revealed and big name Democrats would go to jail.

It requires some degree blind faith to be proven so wrong so many times and still be hoodwinked by the same promise the next time around.

It begs the question: Where can one find the greatest concentration of people who operate on blind faith despite overwhelming evidence? Well, religions of course. The more devoutly faithful a person is, the more likely they will hold out faith in the next great hope that all the “crimes” of Democrats will come to light and Hillary Clinton and all the rest will be locked up.


#1855

Unless this is Fake-News and fraudulent here’s the proof confirming your observation.


#1856

It sounds like you believe this is because the Jan 6 committee no longer places the blame on Trump. You did see that they released the full and final report, and just how damning it is, right?

Why post something about a subpoena that Trump was never going to show up for, which was dropped just before the Jan 6 committee is disbanded, and not the actual report itself, which recommends the DOJ pursue criminal charges against Trump?


#1857

I agreed with your comment about the “fever breaking” … apparently not with you?

You ignore most comments but you sure come to life when the Trump card of politics shows up, Perhaps an integral deep dive on why? … Where in what I shared is the “no blame on Trump” suggested other than in your comment? Why is your passion on right/left politics so intense? What is your true mission here as the “man behind the curtain”?

Sure seems like politics rule this integral life space for you? Okay then … please lead the political reform @corey-devos … what do you recommend? What’s your plan to fix the world? What is your mission and purpose with integral life? What steps can I take to support the endeavor? Perhaps I don’t even belong here because I don’t perfectly align with your political thinking?

Why indeed? Please try and strong man that for me will you?


#1859

Thank you @Sidra for getting it,


#1860

You tagged me in a comment, so I responded to it. As simple as that! You can’t tag me in a post, and when I respond, tell me I’m obsessed with the topic. This feels like entrapment LMAO

You called me in here, @excecutive!

“Sure seems like politics rule this integral life space for you?”

Why would you say that? Can you count the number of content pieces I’ve published in recent months that were political and/or anti-Trump, or even mention Trump? In fact, haven’t you made more posts about Fauci these days, than I have made about Trump?


#1861

As for this question:

Perhaps an integral deep dive on why?

I think I’ve made my views here known in the past, but the reason I feel a lot of passion about the Trump scandals is because I can see very clearly the incredible damage he has done to our culture, to our media discourse, and to our very perceptions of reality. He is a symptom of the full blown transition to aperspectival madness as social media becomes the primary platform of civil discourse. He was responsible for the very first non-peaceful transfer of power in modern American history. And he is running again in just 2 years. Why is that not worthy of discussion and deep reflection?

However, as much as I have to say about this particular topic, in no way do I let that dominate my discussions or contributions on this website, contrary to your accusation that “politics rule this integral life space” for me. Just so the record is clear, here are the content pieces I’ve published over the last few months. How many of these mention Trump, or even politics in general?

Inhabit: Your Bardo

Corey deVos and Ryan Oelke

Ryan and Corey explore the idea that every moment is a bardo, a transition from one state of being to another state of being — and within these ubiquitous transitions there are opportunities to transcend the karmas of our conditioning, and to channel new kinds of creativity into the world.

Stuck in Development: Bringing Depth to the Postmodern Media Age

Jason Lange and Corey deVos

Filmmaker, life coach, and long-time Integral friend Jason Lange sits down with Corey deVos to talk about his new television series, Stuck in Development , now available on all major streaming platforms.

How Healthy Relationships Manage Conflict

Dr. Keith Witt and Corey deVos

Dr. Keith and Corey discuss “post-issue relationships” — relationships where both partners have the awareness and skill to stay connected in warmth and acceptance all the time, where challenges such as irritation, anxiety, doubt, guilt, and frustration can be transmuted into problem solving and warm feelings towards each other.

Putting the “Art” in Artificial Intelligence

Ken Wilber and Corey deVos

What is art, at its most fundamental level? This is one of those perennial questions that we have been asking and re-asking at every stage of the human journey, from the first cave drawings all the way to the emergence of sophisticated artificial intelligence algorithms like MidJourney that are once again blurring the lines between art, beauty, and perspective and forcing us to find new ways to answer this timeless question. Watch as Ken and Corey take a fun and fascinating look at the intersection between art, semiotics, and technology.

Taking Justice Personally

Mark Fischler and Corey deVos

Mark and Corey offer an intimate sharing of their personal stories, reflecting on some of the most formative experiences in their own lives that influenced their interest and enactment of justice. It is a tender and heartfelt conversation that we hope not only allows you to better understand their own passions and perspectives, but also invites you to reflect in a similar way on the critical fulcrums in your own life, and how these experiences continue to shape your standards of goodness, integrity, and justice.

Holons: The Building Blocks of the Universe

Corey deVos

Join Corey deVos for this fun, fascinating, and far-reaching exploration of one of the essential cornerstones of integral theory — holons , or the apparently endless series of “part/wholes” that fundamentally compose reality as we know it.

How Change Works: Supporting Vertical Development

Dr. Keith Witt and Corey deVos

Dr. Keith and Corey explore some critical strategies to help support ongoing growth to increasing wholeness in ourselves and in other people: finding a psycho-spiritual framework to help organize our knowledge, experiences, and practices (e.g. Integral metatheory), engaging in change work (psychotherapy, coaching, consulting, etc.), and seeking communities of people who we recognize as more developed than ourselves.

The Maturing Test: How Developed Is the World’s Most Advanced AI?

Robb Smith, Corey deVos and Susanne Cook-Greuter

We just assessed GPT-3, the world’s most advanced sentence-generating Artificial Intelligence, using Susanne Cook Greuter’s testing methodology. What did we learn, and what are the possible consequences for humanity? Watch to find out!

[SPOILER]: I believe I did mention January 6th in the “Taking Justice Personally” discussion. The context? That it is good for us to extend empathy to the people who were rioting at the Capitol, because they sincerely believed Trump won the election. And that we can hold this basic empathy, even while holding them fully accountable to the law, as they should be.


#1862

@excecutive @Sidra
Yeah pretty much what corey said - this thread has been dead for months and then suddenly @excecutive has an axe to grind and flags corey about topic that has Trump center stage and is also political. Then @excecutive has the audacity to say corey has an axe to grind?

Lol - you’ve don’t this to me, too - which is why I’m jumping in here.
It’s very hypocritical.

I’d like to challenge you - why don’t you join in on more Integral discussions about non-political topics?

And … as long as we necroed this topic …

I’D like to point out that fermentedagave was hilariously wrong about the “red wave” that would come and all the Democrats he expected to be locked up and all the scandals he expected. I think also you were expecting some kind of revolution as well, right?

lol

maybe … just for a minute … look inward to where you went wrong in your analysis and realize it has nothing to do with corey - nor me. You were misguided - deliberately - by people and organizations to believe a false narrative and have false expectations about how events would transpire. Your deception has little to do with me or anyone else except you and the people and organizations that deliberately hoodwinked you.

On the subject of pinging corey - it’s considered bad etiquette to ping the admin of forums unless it’s something that they need to address as admins. If you want him to join you in a nonpolitical discussion - then say something interesting or thought provoking or insightful in a nonpolitical discussion. He does reply - not always and I don’t expect him to more than anyone else. But if people post something that provokes him to think - he will respond. But it’s not his responsibility to somehow get you to say something that interests him. That’s your responsibility. Maybe just expand your awareness to other topics that stimulate interesting discussions.


#1863

I started this popular topic string in support of the “Consilience Project” from a pretty serious guy Daniel Schmachtenberger over a year ago. Which was quickly hijacked into a pollical propaganda demonstration that had me, for the most part, drop out of the conversation.

I shared the image of document without spin … to let it be what it is … a conclusion in relationship to the topic string. This seems to have immediately triggered your blood to boil … you chose to undermine me personally. Everyone here certainly knows your politics and that of @fermentedagave due to this topic string alone.

Do you even know my political views? Why do the integral connections we share seem to allude you? Despite my sharing my views here over and over again our every interaction on this platform has been politically hostile.

While this insight seems to allude you, others are not so shallow. They get it and for the most part opt out of the conversation. Take the high-road here I offer you. Please explain why this conversation has been a benefit to you and to this integral community?


#1864

I would also add that for myself - I see that Trump is merely the most visible figure of a population with these qualities. Moreover - it’s my opinion that it is necessary for people to get out of their laziness and fragility and confront this madness head on - with increasing firmness as required, including bloodshed. A year ago some people thought I was too negative or whatever for saying such things - until Ukraine happened and then suddenly - yeah - Integral at some point has to be prepared to go outside of a Green and peaceful narrative of nonviolence.
That’s where I entered this forum a few years ago - learning and practicing confrontation on various levels while also searching how it affected me internally. Also being aware of possibilities of other people’s internal - but not establishing these as knowns but as merely hundreds of possibilities. I have some very interesting ideas about the internal of @excecutive or even corey - but I don’t establish these as knowns, merely possibilities and to state other people’s interiors as knowns is just egotistical hubris. (linking in a topic in another discussion here)

“Cleaning Up” is very much about cleaning up oneself and realizing all these levels of egotistical hubris that we project onto others and the world. I will say this - I don’t think it’s possible for a person to be “Integral” if a person projects their interior into another’s interior. In other words - I don’t think it’s possible for a person to believe they absolutely know what another person is thinking and be Integral. They haven’t “cleaned up” all the levels of ego projection and don’t even have a basic understanding of their own interiors.


#1865

This I truly regret, because I personally am not trying to bring any hostility into the discussion. Perhaps it’s just one where I have more passion than you do, whereas you have more passion for your Fauci discussions.

However, I don’t think you are taking full responsibility here @excecutive. You say that I chose to “undermine you personally” — I cannot see where I have done so. I made no personal attacks on you or your character whatsoever. I certainly did not say the sort of things that you said to me, which I took as far more hostile than anything I said to you. Not in an over the top way, we are all grown ups and can find congenial ways to disagree. But it seems to me that you tried to interrogate my interiors far more than I tried to interrogate yours.

Are you self-reflecting here, as much as you are asking me to self-reflect? If you were, I think you’d likely notice that you have out-aggressed me here :slight_smile: For real though, it feels very much like you are projecting your own hostility onto me in this thread.

The point remains, you called me onto this thread, and when I responded, you basically said I was obsessed with Trump, questioned my intentions and “true mission” with Integral Life, etc. I never said anything nearly as personal about you. Do you accept responsibility for these actions?

Do you even know my political views? Why do the integral connections we share seem to allude you?

I only know what you have shared. Some places we agree. Other places we don’t. It’s fun talking about both. But my overall concern here is that you seem to be representing yourself as a “high road traveller” in these discussions, while sneaking a few daggers of your own while traveling that high road. This very comment chain today, for example, feels to me a bit passive aggressive (which is a form of hostility, as you know).

Now, I did try to strongman your view. It’s up to you to tell me whether I was right or wrong. But I said “It sounds like you believe this is because the Jan 6 committee no longer places the blame on Trump.” That was me trying to strongman you, and trying to deduce your motivation for tagging me in a dormant political thread.

You initiated a political conversation with me, and when I responded, you accused me of being overly/aggressively political. You made far more accusations about my interiors than I made about yours. You do see that, right?

And in no way did your comment “triggered my blood to boil” (another accusation about my interiors). You really think my response was blood-boiling? Man, my response was some tepid shit, and basically just said “the subpoena being dropped is meaningless outside of the context of the committee closing its doors, and having just released its final report”. That isn’t exactly blood-boiling my friend.


#1866

Just for fun and since someone opened up the topic of Trump again in this discussion - turns out the man did - obviously - commit fraud each year he filed his taxes. Not in a clever way, either. In a way that any first year Tax Preparer at H&R Block or similar chain knows not to do and even rookies know these things are very easily spotted by auditors.

Which begs the question why they were not audited with such blatant red flags.

  • Round numbers for interest to the nearest thousand dollars
  • Expenses of companies matching its income exactly to the dollar
  • No FBAR reporting of foreign bank accounts with more than $10,000 (incurrs a fine of $100,000 or 50% of highest value account for each year. No audit really neeeded for this one. Did you file it? No = fine)

Then a few other key points:

  • His keynote Tax Bill in 2018 clearly benefitted him personally
  • He claimed to donate his salary to charity, but did not report any charitable deductions. Basically, he lied. Again, no suprise to most the world.
  • He paid more taxes to China than to the United States (because he defrauded the United States)

#1867

No I do not see that … I replied with questions

So you reply below about your site content, I love your content and millions of people do … but you ignored my questions and seemed to take further offense.

So I will ask again … regarding your mission with this integral life platform


#1868

I replied with questions

It felt more like you were begging the question :slight_smile: Your conclusions were already packed into the questions themselves.

You said that I undermined you personally and acted in a hostile way toward you, but I do not see where I did so. Can you show me?

Meanwhile, here are some of your comment/questions:

“you sure come to life when the Trump card of politics shows up, Perhaps an integral deep dive on why?”

Begging the question. It’s like asking “when did you stop beating your wife?” By the way, I “come to life” when it comes to all sorts of issues. That’s how I make content!

Not to mention the fact that you tagged me in a comment about Trump, and when I responded to your comment, you accused me of being obsessed with the topic. Can you see why I’d say that feels like entrapment?

Here’s a few more:

Sure seems like politics rule this integral life space for you?

While technically a question, this is also preloaded with your conclusion. It’s not really a question, but an accusation. “Sure seems like you used to beat your wife.”

Why is your passion on right/left politics so intense?

Begging the question. I have all sorts of passions. I probably spend more time talking about art than I do politics, for example :slight_smile: But I’ve already explained where some of this “passion” comes from — in this case, a total undermining of our political, media, academic, and governing institutions coming from the right side of the aisle. You see, sometimes a “trans-partisan view” is capable of saying “this party is fundamentally broken, and is capable of breaking our democracy.” As we came close to seeing on January 6th.

please lead the political reform

Am I not allowed to have political opinions and views unless I am leading a political movement?

But since you asked, I do have a plan to “fix the world”, but is clearly not something I can actually do myself, or have any real influence over, so I focus on sustaining a platform where more integral ideas can grow and spread and gather influence. And I’ve mentioned my plan in this very thread, even!

Here’s the plan:

  1. Repeal the 1929 Reapportionment Act that places an artificial cap on the number of representatives in the House, and skews influence toward less populated states. This fixes the Electoral College problem without requiring a Constitutional Amendment.

  2. Ranked choice in all 50 states. This eliminates the spoiler effect and allows more moderate candidates to be selected by voters, as well as space for more parties to emerge without being forced into a binary set of coalitions. This fixes the two party problem and brings us closer to a more parliamentary system that can “hold the center” much more adequately that a two party system possibly could.

  3. Preserve and supplement the 2nd Amendment with a mandatory service in a peace corp/national guard like service that brings all young Americans together, regardless of class, races, sex, gender, etc. and puts them in service of a greater good, while training them to respect and wield firearms. This rekindles a healthy American nationalism, gets guns out of our collective shadow, and helps eliminate tribalism by putting people in contact with perspectives unlike their own.

So that’s my plan! Elect me in 2024 and we will make it happen. Yes we can!

What is your mission and purpose with integral life?

Honestly, thank you for this opportunity to reflect. It’s nice to touch base with purpose.

  • to support the continued emergence of integral ideas,
  • to support the constellation of integral souls,
  • to continue my own development by surrounding myself with like-minded and like-hearted people,
  • to help re-cohere a shared epistemology to bring us out of the aperspectival social media era of narcissism, nihilism, and conspiracy lunacy,
  • to engage in heartfelt, intelligent discussions around any number of topics, including politics,
  • when it comes to politics, to center the integral political framework itself, and demonstrate how far from an “integral center” our own political system has drifted. Rather than a weak “enlightened centrism” that tries to hover above the fray by saying things like “both parties are equally bad”, instead we can note that, yes, sometimes one political party is far worse than another when it comes to a given issue.

What steps can I take to support the endeavor?

Remain in dialogue. Take and give feedback. Do your own work to make sure you aren’t projecting your own shadows onto others. Find ways to apply these big and beautiful ideas in your own sphere of influence. Oh and keep listening to my shows! (Okay that last one was a bit self-serving.)

what do you recommend?

As a general recommendation – not to you specifically, but to anyone trying to think about politics in a more integral way, I’ll unpack my comments about “enlightened centrism” above. I do not think the integral path is one of “enlightened centrism” that is based on the idea that “both parties are equally bad, and do equally bad things” or that “we need to include 50% of one party and 50% of the other party”. That to me is a product of lazy thinking, above-it-all-ism, and totally lacking a sense of healthy proportionality. The funny/ironic thing is, this kind of lazy centrism actually has no center, because its center shifts as soon as the Overton window shifts. As soon as one party pushes to an extreme, it drags the perceived “center” along with it.

I am trying to pursue an integral centrism that uses the integral framework itself to identify whether a particular leader or political social holon are behaving like grownups. Which is why I generally agree with Jonathan Haidt that, while we are certainly seeing political extremism on both sides of the political aisle (an inevitable result of the social media age), the GOP has become far more compromised by this extremism than the DNC. And because I want to transcend and include healthy conservatism, I feel very strongly that the regressive MAGA-GOP movement needs to be negated in order to preserve a healthy system (while simultaneously understanding the conditions that resulted in the emergence of MAGA in the first place, and addressing those conditions).

Because to “transcend and include” is simultaneously to “negate and preserve”. We don’t include the cancer cells. Which means that sometimes we need some friction, some conflict, some confrontation in order to eliminate those cancer cells.

I sort of see it like a quadrant diagram (not Ken’s quadrants). You can be right for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons. But you can also be wrong for the wrong reasons, or right for the right reasons.

We can automatically include green (not Ken’s colors). Meanwhile, we can learn from orange, and we can fix yellow — so both of those have true-but-partials that can be carefully transcluded. If one political party was more-often in the yellow, and the other more-often in the orange, I’d be more inclined to lean yellow at the polls, depending on the proportionality of the issues. But red can’t be included, it needs to be negated in order to preserve the other three.

I think some of the regular people who attended Jan 6 — but didn’t actually break into the capitol building — were in the yellow quadrant. I think the majority of them — particularly the ones who did break in the capitol — were in the red quadrant.

Trump, Eastman, Giuliani, and all the others who actually conspired to overthrow the election using a phony legal theory and a manufactured fog of war, who counted on being the victors who would write the history, were squarely in the red — and it’s one of the most egregious and malignant examples of red that we’ve seen in modern political history, which needs to be aggressively stamped out.

Now I’ll switch back to Ken’s colors :wink:

As Wilber says, we don’t deal with Nazis (or any other malignant red/amber group by surrounding them with loving-kindness meditations, but through superior firepower, period. Which is why my disdain for MAGA is coming as much from my own healthy amber, as it is from any higher altitude in my stack. This is not a partisan take, it is a post-partisan take that is not afraid to hold a particular individual or social holon accountable.

Which certainly does not mean we should go along calling everyone we disagree with a “Nazi”. But it does mean that genuinely regressive political movements exist, and whenever we see genuinely malignant red/amber gaining influence in our political system (as we did on January 6th), we push against it, and we push hard, without fear that someone might call us “partisan”. This is the trap of two-party politics — the Overton window swings wildly, and with it goes our perceived “center”, because that “center” is only defined relative to the current status of these parties.

There is nothing our nation needs more right now than a genuine worldcentric conservatism. And there is nothing preventing that “deep conservatism” from emerging more than the regressive MAGA movement itself. As an integralist, I care about that very much.

I hope that answers your questions! And I hope that you can see that I am indeed passionate about these topics — I love having them, I love learning from our disagreements, and I love finding new ways to use the model to discern more of reality and better differentiate right and wrong, action and intent. And I sincerely do regret if you think any of our interactions have been “hostile”, I certainly have no ill will toward you whatsoever, you seem like a very intelligent, authentic, and peace loving dude! Honestly I think much of it is because all this takes place on a text-only platform, making it easy to misread intent, without being able to catch misunderstandings in the moment. For example, I read your initial intent bringing up this thread again, and posting the dismissal of Trump’s subpoena, as trying to be deliberately – but playfully – provocative. Which is totally okay with me, and can be fun in political discussions! Friendly sparring is always allowed, and sometimes preferred! Maybe it’s because your phrasing was so short in your comment, as was mine in my response, that we interpreted each other as being more terse than we intended. That’s probably why I often overuse emojis. :slight_smile:

And I certainly agree with you that when we are having those “right and wrong” conversations, we need to do our best to keep our emotions clean, since it’s so easy for our moral line to hijack the emotional line. And we always need to be as skillful in our actions as we can, with the shared intent to reduce suffering in others as much as ourselves.

Happy new year!


#1869

Here was the opening challenge and you determining my intentions.

Why indeed? Please try and strong man that for me will you?


#1870

But where was the personal insult? My response was a quick strongman — “seems like you posted this because…” Now you get to tell me if I was right or wrong.

There was no hostility there, I didn’t say anything about you as a person, let alone “undermine you”. It was questioning your reasoning, not your character. Was it just the brevity of my response, and lack of emojis? :grinning: