Integral Interpretation of Abortion, Abortion Bans


#41

Do I really need to make a list of every conservative who has fought against the sorts of things I’ve listed above?

Are you saying there has been no call for “abstinence-only” education from the right?

Are you saying there has been no move from the right wing to prohibit kids from receiving school lunches whose family cannot afford them, saying it will make the children “spoiled”?

Or are we trying to keep the discussion limited to members of this group only? In which case, your various posts about the many things you don’t like about what the left is doing are all off-topic.


#42

“Hey kids, It doesn’t matter if he doesn’t look anything at all like the gentle man we are talking with, let’s stuff a little more religion in the legs and a bunch more Mythic Literal right up the seat of his pants. This will confuddlate the holy bat guano out of everyone.”


#43

Let’s just narrow the conversation to the matter of rape and incest. Here are what some regressive GOP members have said publicly:

“As long as it’s inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it.” —Former Texas Republican gubernatorial contender Clayton Williams on rape.

“If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” —Rep. Todd Akin (R-Missouri). His lost his Senate bid in 2012.

Life begins “from the first day of the last menstrual period of the pregnant woman.” —Statement from an Arizona bill signed into law by Republican Gov. Jan Brewer

“The facts show that people who are raped —who are truly raped—the juices don’t flow, the body functions don’t work and they don’t get pregnant. Medical authorities agree that this is a rarity, if ever.” —former Rep. Henry Aldridge (R-N.C.)

“In the emergency room they have what’s called rape kits where a woman can get cleaned out” - Texas state Rep. Jodie Laubenberg, on why there shouldn’t be a rape or incest exception in Texas’ sweeping anti-choice bills.

“Watch a sonogram of a 15-week baby, and they have movements that are purposeful. They stroke their face. If they’re a male baby, they may have their hand between their legs. If they feel pleasure, why is it so hard to believe that they could feel pain?” — current Republican Rep. Michael Burgess, arguing that male babies masturbate in utero.

“I struggled with it myself for a long time, and I realized that life is a gift from God, and I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something God intended to happen.” —Indiana Senate candidate Richard Mourdock, who lost his 2012 Senate bid.

“The method of conception doesn’t change the idea of life.” —Republican vice-presidential hopeful Paul Ryan, when asked about pregnancy resulting from rape.

“One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is I think the dangers of contraception in this country… Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that’s okay, contraception is okay. It’s not okay. It’s a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be.” —Rick Santorum, former Republican senator from Pennsylvania and former presidential hopeful.


Wow, look at all those scarecrows!


#44

Hey, another scarecrow! Gotta keep those hungry kids from being “spoiled”.


On June 9, the Waukesha school board voted to forego the pandemic free-meal program that extends through June 30. While many lawmakers and advocates said the program was necessary to help prevent child hunger during the pandemic, the district’s board members opposed the program and said families that could afford to feed their children should do just that.

“I had three kids. I had them and so I’m going to feed them. I feel like that’s the responsibility of the adult,” Karin Rajnicek, a board member, said during a May meeting. “I feel like this is a big problem, and it’s really easy to get sucked into and become spoiled and think, ‘It’s not my problem anymore — it’s everyone else’s problem to feed my children.’”


#45

Nobody needs to say something that is easily seen.
Do you think only what you say is true? Do you believe that if YOU do not actually say something it isn’t true? Regardless of what you say or do not say, the situation in US politics is easily seen unless people have blinders on.


#46

@corey-devos
Topic at hand is: Integral Interpretation of Abortion, Abortion Bans . Seems we are heading across lots of terrain here.

Did you want to discuss the school lunch programs? I’m not really up to speed on Waukesha and completely lost on what point you are trying to make, but the very first hit (I use DuckDuckGo search) was wumm89.7 (linked) is copied below. It does look like Google search leads with

After an intense public backlash, the Waukesha School Board reversed its decision to opt out of a special federal free meals program.

The board originally decided in June to turn down the Seamless Summer Option, a temporary that pays for meals for all students regardless of income.

Instead, the board voted unanimously to return to the National School Lunch Program, which requires families to apply for free or reduced-price lunch. One reason given was that it would push families to fill out the free lunch application – and the paperwork helps them access other aid.

But after WUWM and other news outlets – including the Washington Post – reported that Waukesha was the only Wisconsin district to turn down free meals for all students, the board experienced a backlash.

At a special meeting Monday night, board members, including Corey Montiho, said they had received numerous threats.

"I was told to put a bullet in my head," Montiho said. "I was told that children would die and students would starve. It’s unacceptable."

Board member Karin Rajnicek said her business was flooded with negative reviews after she was quoted as saying families would become spoiled by the free meal program. Rajnicek said she was tempted to use the free meal program last year, even though she could afford to buy lunch for her kids.

"The spoiled I referred to is me – it’s all of us – if we rely on the system when we can provide for ourselves," Rajnicek said "And we do have many services in place for those who need help. And if we don’t start saying no with our government handing out money that we can never get out from under, we won’t have the services to help these exact children and families we all want to help."

Other board members felt differently. Greg Deets said he voted to return to the National School Lunch Program in June without doing enough research.

"The truth is that many of our students are hungry throughout the school day, and we have the ability to do something about that," Deets said.

Board president Joseph Como, Jr. had similar concerns. He said the messages he received from community members opened his eyes to the fact that there are students who fall through the cracks at school.

"I don’t know – one of the things that I struggled with most is I eat every meal every day," Como said. "I cannot relate to being hungry."

Waukesha Superintendent James Sebert did not make a recommendation on the lunch program earlier this summer. But at Monday’s meeting, he recommended the board change course, and accept the Seamless Summer Option for the upcoming school year.

"It would help families who may not qualify for free and reduced lunch, but who are also experiencing situational poverty due to the pandemic," Sebert said.

When it came time to vote, board member Anthony Zenobia urged the others not to cave to what he said was politically-driven pressure from progressives.

"If it’s food today and free lunch today, it will be forced masking, forced whatever we want to do in the schools – because the mob will have the power to tell us what to do every time we walk in this building," Zenobia said.

The board voted 5-4 to reverse its decision, and use the universal free meals program (Seamless Summer Option). Deets, Como, Bill Baumgart, Patrick McCaffery, and Amanda Roddy voted in favor. Montiho, Rajnicek, Zenobia and Kelly Piacsek voted against.

The district also plans to encourage families to fill out free lunch applications, so that when the temporary program is over at the end of this school year, children who qualify for free meals can still get them.


#47

The discussion veered into the observation that GOP politicians seem to care about the pre-born more than the post-born, and you asked the question “who said that?”

So I told you who said that :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


#48

image


#49

Hey man, you asked the question. Don’t ask if you don’t actually want an answer :slight_smile:


#50

Walks like a duck and talks like a duck …
You post daily right wing media and now think that saying you are on the right is straw manning?
Loool


#51

And yes, I am glad the conservative-led decision to let impoverished kids go hungry got reversed! I bet Zenobia was not happy to see the board cave to politically-driven pressure from the progressives!


#52

image


#53

What really sucks, in my view, is that we have so few genuinely worldcentric leaders on the right who know how to legislate without appealing purely to the ethnocentric majority. My own conservative principles have very little representation in our current political climate. I want worldcentric conservatives who are capable of perceiving and enacting “systemic causation” rather than “direct causation” and who can actually represent much-needed interior values, without eliminating or ignoring exterior systemic factors. I am very pro-2A, for example, which is why I want better regulations around firearms. I want as few unwanted pregnancies as possible, which is why I want to enact the solutions from the right and the left that have been proven to work. I want a healthy national identity without falling into the ethnocentric rhetoric of 20th century nationalism. I want to restore and re-situate healthy amber foundations in this country without regressing to premodern views and values.


#54

I’m trying to figure out the “straw man” thing. What in your mind do you think we are strawmanning here? Do you think we are strawmanning YOU by discussing the things the GOP is doing and saying? I can’t imagine what else you might mean by it. We are taking about the Republican Party as a social holon, which is comprised of specific leaders who say and do specific things based on specific justifications. And I am offering specific examples, in order to reveal this current of thinking and it’s influence upon today’s GOP. This is by definition not a straw man, and I for one am not assuming that you agree with the quotes I’ve been posting, and then using that to argue against you. We have to remember there are important distinctions between “right/left” as political parties (social holons), as the electorate, and as political philosophy.

For example, I find myself agreeing with right-leaning intellectuals far more often than I agree with GOP politicians and policies, but the problem is they have very limited influence among the conservative electorate, even compared to something like Q Anon.

So no one is strawmanning you here, nor are we strawmanning the GOP as a social holon, as the quotes make clear. Again, I do not assume you agree with the voices above, and I do not agree they represent only a minor fringe of the current Republican party.


#55

image


#56

Just today, Abbott, who signed this into law, said the following. Is this another scarecrow?

Reporter: Why force a rape or incest victim to carry a pregnancy to term?

Gov. Greg Abbott (R-TX): “It doesn’t require that at all, because obviously it provides at least 6 weeks for a person to be able to get an abortion.”

Too bad those six weeks begin when a woman’s last period began, not six weeks after conception, or six weeks after a missed period. Which means he is expecting many/most rape victims to schedule their abortion before they even know they are pregnant. 6 weeks gestation is only two weeks after a woman’s missed period. I guess every time a woman’s period comes late, they better schedule an abortion just to be safe.

This is what happens when we enact amber belief-based policy that is not grounded in minimally-orange scientific reality.

Does this seem sensible to you, @FermentedAgave? Or does this count as a straw man for some reason?


#57

Scan the thread.
In setting context with discussion with Ken you by design collapsed anti abortion, religious fundamentalism and conservatives into a single blob. You then used used Mythic Literal interpretation of Old Testament passages as well as extreme assessments to bludgeon home your blob.
I will point out that KW was extremely balanced and in no way “agreed” with your assertions. He was on a different plane.

I was a little snarky about this. You got snarky. I think Andrew brought us back.

I then posited several topics for discussion that you had not already bludgeoned solo into submission.
You replied 1 by 1 from an almost completely political frame. Thats ok but hardly Meta.

I was a bit taken aback at how clearly you aligned with M. Sanger who was a renowned cull-the-herd-of-humanity proponent and founder of Planned Parenthood. Its also strange to me that you are equally quick express moral outrage and also complete objectification of 100M’s or Bs of people.

You and Ray then start stuffing your boogieman scarecrow with all the triggers that youve been wanting to cover. I thought it funny. And here we are.

You said your In laws are Catholic. I think there are several Catholic groups that might really open up your worldview if you spent time with them. As in BE WITH THE PEOPLE AS THEY DO REAL THINGS IN THE REAL WORLD, not geeks on the interwebs. Of course you would want to stay silent if they say a offensive prayer or they say something snarky about Democrats. Just a thought. Its all good brother. Be well.


#58

When did I do that? I said she was irrelevant. Now you are strawmanning me.

Because that is what strawmanning means. Putting words in someone’s mouth and then arguing against those words as if they said them. I am categorically not doing that, I am pointing out the words that influential conservative leaders have said, and asking your opinion, as I just did about Abbott’s uninformed belief-based comment on my last comment. Because you made the claim that there are already mechanisms in place for rape/incest victims. I proved there are not.


#59

If you have triggers - those are your triggers. Triggers have absolutely nothing to do with straw manning. Just like feeling you are a target personally if people discuss what’s going on in the world has nothing to do with straw manning. The other person is describing general trends and unless they say you specifically, if you take on that baggage that’s your own baggage to deal with yourself.

If you want to feel targeted personally, here’s an article I find applicable:


#60

No Corey, I said your long rationale for pro choice very much aligns with Sangers foundational philosophy for Planned Parenthood. Perhaps your altitude is Meta Eugenics ?