More Political Scales, and Political Identity


#21

WOW!!! … I am new here and I am deeply disconnected from everything you have written here @gnosisman … I find your emotional response strangely akin to Donald Trump.

If you have something positive and insightful to contribute I’d like to hear that. We’re all in this together. Let’s lead the way in having honest integral conversations that help us all evolve. And please let’s all lay off the Trump tactic of attacking perceived opponents, shall we?

On the Integral front some 74 Million Americans voted for President Trump, how do we integrate that into a holistic world view? How can we find common ground and connection with those with whom we disagree?

Maybe honestly answering these questions will better the tone for all of us? Thank You! :slight_smile:


#22

You are missing the point, fermented agave. I have no qualms with the views of others. My point is that we are all talking about issues that are on the surface of things. We are not going deep enough in addressing the underlying cause of our sociopolitical problems and our politicians, on both sides of the aisle, are making them worse.


#23

If you are deeply disconnected to the quotes I provided and the comments I made about them, I can only say to you, go in peace. In reference to attacks, I did not insult Trump or his supporters. The quotes I provided and the comments I made refers to the behavior of followers and toxic leaders not who they are- that’s basic psychology.

In reference to the term you used, the integral front, the implication I’m getting is that you believe Trump supporters are Integrally informed. If so, the question arises: to what degree? I can only surmise that the vast majority of them know nothing about integral theory much less read the books I quoted. Had they done so, it would reveal to them that there is more to reality than what they see. And when I provided those quotes, it was meant in an insightful and positive way- disturbing though it might be. In integral theory, it’s called growing up. We need to grow up psychologically because it’s the only way we can wake up spiritually and growing up is not for the fainthearted because in puts into serious question our most cherished beliefs and it is these unexamined beliefs that hinder our potential far more than we realize.

In all this, I’ll admit I went on a rant and for that I apologize.


#24

I asked my question you apparently missed it. No one here is promoting anything other than observations on our inner spiritual dealings navigating the hostile waters of our divided world which is only amplified by personal politics. …

The “implication” you are getting … or what you “surmise” is deeply ingrained in your head and not in this dialog. Most people here welcome open conversations and individual perceptions. May I suggest that if you inquire with honest integrity, rather than reading between lines and jumping to conclusions, it won’t come off so judgmental.

As we "grow up and wake up "… hopefully we will all find it a distasteful irritation when the discussion devolves to rants … as it does not add clarity to the discussion; it only clouds perceptions.

I applaud and thank you for taking the high road with your apology. :slight_smile:


#25

I read some of your comments on your spiritual quest site; it explains our differences and the path we are taking. All the best to you in yours.


#26

This reply is really to @gnosisman, @FermentedAgave and @excecutive (but the system only allows to reply to one post.)

I find it extremely interesting how this discussion evolved, and I hope it helps me explain here what I am really interested in:
I think what happened here is very natural and the way the discussion resolved itself is about the best way that I ever see things going on any forum: emotions got a little triggered, but everyone had enough awareness to be able to also step out of their emotional position…and so it came back–not only to a more friendly discussion–but also, it seems, a bit of understanding about the other’s points of view (at least to some extent)

I think this is great–BUT(!) I think there is even more gold to be found in looking more deeply into why these emotions come up for each of us, how they are embedded in us–
because I actually think that part of the quote that @gnosisman started to join the conversation with is actually extremely accurate:

So, one thing I am really interested in, is to look inside our own psyche at these structures and learn something about how they work. I do not think they are all bad. I think they are at the core an expression of our concern about the world, ourselves, and others (it is just hard for us to see that: so are the equivalent structures of people “on the other side”)–but they are also built in a way that makes it hard (or for most people impossible) to see reality outside of their grip. (and indeed, the above quote suggests, this is part of their very purpose)

So: Here I am just straight-out getting myself in trouble with everyone in this thread, but let me explain, how I see this:

@gnosisman: Thank you for being the one most willing to respond directly from that emotional place (I know I’m turning things on their head a bit–but please stay with me)–thank you also for showing that you clearly have the ability to step out of it enough to respond to @excecutive the way you did. (because otherwise my questions would be pointless)
Now my question is: Can you (or would you be willing to) look deeper into what that place is actually like. I get the impression that the speaker in the video that @FermentedAgave posted immediately rubbed you the wrong way (and, if you’re like me, probably the commentator that started the video out, even more so)
I know, there are many points that can be made on a factual basis (for example: why does he ONLY criticize the democrats–as you said–BUT I am almost certain that a talk by Noam Chomsky, where he only criticizes the Republicans wouldn’t quite rub you the same way)–so, I am more interested in, if there is something in you (and me, and most everyone else) that tends to make us swing one way or another–independent of the (supposed) facts. What is it? What is the quality we get triggered by, from the opposing side, and what quality on “our” side allows us to ignore similar factual inconsistencies with them.

@FermentedAgave: You haven’t gone quite as all-out as @gnosisman in that respect, but to me, the fact that you posted videos and arguments ONLY from one side of the (admittedly extremely one-dimensionally defined) political spectrum, indicates to me that you also have an emotional leaning towards just one of these sides. Like everyone in this discussion, you clearly can step out of that and see things from a larger vantage point–but in this case I am actually more interested in what you can find out about the emotional leaning, if you do allow it to rise up in you. Why does it lean the other way from how it seems to lean for @gnosisman? What qualities does it like and trust and dislike and distrust?

@excecutive: You clearly keep yourself very clear from that emotional level in these discussions–and, based on my own experience (and I haven’t followed your posts elsewhere, so I am just guessing from that personal place) this may be the result of some hard-fought inner battles. However, I wonder if that means that you cannot still find these things arising within–before you catch them and decide to respond from a different place–or if that really isn’t the case for you, if you can maybe at least remember this place inside yourself. Do you have any wisdom to share about how you believe it is structured? (Maybe you believe that this is a futile agenda and we all should just overcome this–but then I would disagree with you, if not with the ultimate outcome, so at least with the process: It is my experience that “we should overcome this” is not a viable path, and a viable path needs to actually include an understanding and even, to some extent, embracing, of the aspect of ourselves that we want to transform)

I think it would be extremely valuable to understand this emotional place better. For one reason:
Because very, very few people outside this community and some other ones, are even able to separate themselves enough from this place to have the kinds of discussions that do not immediately end in total futility. So it would be extremely valuable to understand more about the internal mechanism they are dealing with, to be able to “work around” or “work with” it in some way to still be able to have a useful dialog.
Secondly, I strongly feel–as indicated earlier–that at the core of these emotional predispositions is something quite beautiful and life-affirming (that protects itself unnecessarily rigidly) and that getting to the core of each of these predispositions (there may certainly be more than two!) and integrating them, would be extremely valuable.

Again, this is one of the approaches that I find extremely important, and to me they seem deeper than the discussions about who is right. That does not mean that what you, @gnosisman find more important or deeper couldn’t also be so. (personally I feel that the supposedly “powerful” are much more captured by these same kinds of processes, than we think, and therefore much less in control themselves than your point seems to indicate–but that is not a point I really want to argue in this thread.) But then: I think I get to explore my idea a bit here too, since I did start this post :rofl:

Oh yes: So, to be fair and in case it isn’t clear (since I got a bit personal with my comments on each of you): I clearly have, and recognize this emotional place in myself. I find it absolutely fascinating, because it exists even around issues where my considered opinion has evolved to places where it does not match the “officially sanctioned” opinion of “my tribe” and may even be closer to the officially sanctioned opinion of “the opposing tribe”. Nevertheless I tend to want to give “my tribe” the benefit of the doubt and tend to immediately react with aversion when someone from “the other tribe” makes a statement I find factually false or manipulative or in some other way missing the mark.
Certainly I catch myself, when that happens and try not to react from that place. But it happens nonetheless–and I think it is worthwhile to investigate this in more depth.


#27

@Mbohu
My apologies as I thought you were looking for how each of us views the political spectrum and perhaps how we as individuals relate, knee-jerk respond, or think on said spectrum. I seemed to have “missed the mark” with my initial response regarding policy as the product and politics as the communications method. I wanted to continue discussion on politics vs policy in order to perhaps give us freedom around discourse as discourse, not as a proverbial memetic battle. Lol.

To course correct, I posted the Hansen talk which for me might be the most concise and comprehensive summary of my personal political beliefs, feelings, reactions of BOTH the conservative and progressive ends of the spectrum. :slight_smile:. Foolishness on my part to think that posting a video link of a conservative intellectual would not be construed as a fear inducing existential attack by progessives.

Happy Independence Day weekend to all. I would ask everyone in both US and globally to consider the scenario of the US NOT being founded as it was.

I personally will be enjoying and honoring with gratitude the sweet and delicious fruits from the orchard of Freedom and Liberty that our founding fathers planted for us here in the USA and for the rest of the world.


#28

Glad to hear from you, Mbohu, and I appreciate the time you took to reply to what we’ve been discussing. Speaking candidly, it was not easy for me to put an end to my disagreement with @executive. Mainly because he did not ponder -as you did- on the meaning of what I was saying. Instead, he was in a defensive posture. If intuition serves me well, it was because I believe what I said was a threat to his belief system hence he disingenuously equated me with Donald Trump as a means to alleviate his discomfort. In subsequent comments, I realized that it was best to let this go because his line of thinking is vastly different from mine. I also believe we are all at different stages of psychological development. When I say psychological development. I’m referring to growing up -not waking up. Growing up, as you may know, is not for the faint hearted.

It requires a hell of a lot of courage, humility, and willingness to rigorously question our belief system at a deep existential level. Long before Lynn Fuentes said in one of her lectures about integral theory that we must grow up first before we wake up, I was already on the path to growing up because I fell into a deep depression. It took me a long time to realize that it’s not my fault for having been born in such a fucked up society that is largely culpable for my suffering and of humanity. We believe we are living normal lives but we are not. In various ways and degrees, all of us have been traumatized but remain unaware of it because it runs deep in us. I believe this trauma is the formation of our shadow. In Dr. Robert Firestone’s book, The Self Under Siege, he said

To lead a free life, a person must separate him- or herself from negative imprinting and remain open and vulnerable. This differentiation is difficult to accomplish and requires considerable effort because, as children, people not only identify with the defenses of their parents but also tend to incorporate into themselves the critical or hostile attitudes that were directed toward them.

The above quote is not some new age Integral jargon. Dr. Firestone and the aforementioned authors’ words are anchored in the collective dire immediacy of our psychological realities. And what they say is quite understandable, insightful, and disturbing because they reveal the truth as to how the human mind becomes corrupted by all manner of bad parenting, our archaic educational system, the entertainment industry, and political and religious ideologies that are an utter disgrace to humanity- the latter piss me off to no end.

Dr. Firestone’s book and the ones I cited are just a few of many unknown authors who reveal how our psyche is so dysfunctional because we were born into a sick world and the world is getting sicker with each passing day. The only way out of this societal madness is to free ourselves from having been infected by it. However, and as Dr. Firestone said, differentiating ourselves from our negative imprinting from parents, politics, religion and the world we live in is not for the faint-hearted. It requires rigorous self awareness and the willingness to accept the truth no matter how we may feel of the outcome. For me, this is what growing up means. By knowing how and why our psyche has been severely compromised from those who have better eyes to see, we can begin to see the truth about ourselves; that growing up is a formidable task, requiring far more of our attention and effort than we realize. For me, the right kind of books and the right kind of psychotherapy can have a transformative effect in developing our individuation and freeing ourselves from cultural conditioning, our shadow, and pent up unexamined feelings that go as far back as childhood.

On another issue that I believe takes up too much of our energies is God. I often wish we should shut the hell up talking about who God is -and isn’t. I say this because anyone who calls himself integral should know that the idea of God is just that, an idea. And when we believe in these ideas without question, we don’t have the idea. The idea has us and it controls us accordingly. As Joseph Campbell said, God is beyond all categories of thought hence any idea we have of God is not God. That we haven’t gotten this through our thick skull is infuriating because man made ideas about God is making us utterly stupid as it ends up killing millions of people throughout history and manipulates the masses to all manner of submission and conformity as we’ve seen with Evangelicals supporting Trump and Sarah Huckabee claiming that he was sent by God. And so, for me to say that Trump’s behavior is toxic and his followers have been radicalized should not be controversial because, if anyone knows enough about growing up, they would know that all is not well within the Republican Party, Trump, and his followers.

Furthermore, when FermentedAgave said

Thinking of a discussion (political discourse in this case) as a physical battle is the methodology used by politicians and media to raise their level of perceived importance.

I agree, but I’ll amend it with the qualification that politicians, on both sides of the aisle -with few exceptions- do not give a rat’s ass about the well being of the American people and the Republicans are the worst offender. This is why I took issue with Dr. Hansen’s
video. When @executive called me out for not offering “positive” ideas, ironically, it is Dr. Hanson who has nothing positive or transformative to say about the present madness we are in politically. Unlike Dr. Riane Eisler, Dr. Hansen has no new theories on how to rise above the acrimony, dysfunction, and problems we face in the world. All he does is just talk about issues that give a semblance of something new but it’s still confined within his own perception of political reality. In fact, for decades, the entire Republican party has offered nothing truly substantial, i.e. transformative ideas on how to make the US a better place to live as we see in Scandinavian countries. As Thomas Mann and Norman Ornstein said in their book, It’s Even Worse Than It Was.

Today’s Republican Party, as we noted at the beginning of the book, is an insurgent outlier. It has become ideologically extreme; contemptuous of the inherited social and economic policy regime; scornful of compromise; unpersuaded by conventional understanding of facts, evidence, and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition, all but declaring war on the government. The Democratic Party, while no paragon of civic virtue, is more ideologically centered and diverse, protective of the government’s role as it developed over the course of the last century, open to incremental changes in policy fashioned through bargaining with the Republicans, and less disposed to or adept at take-no-prisoners conflict between the parties. This asymmetry between the parties, which journalists and scholars often brush aside or whitewash in a quest for “balance”, constitutes a huge obstacle to effective governance.

So, I agree with FermentedAgave, that we should include and understand but we must do it with a discriminating penetrating mind whose mission is to seek the truth above all ideologies. It means standing alone because it’s the only way towards freedom from our limited perception of reality and the cultivation of individuation.

Unlike Dr. Hansen, FermentedAgave’s post on Dr. Glenn Loury was quite different. Loury said.

Everybody comes with a mother tongue and so forth.We are given these things, those are the initial facts about ourselves. They are not alive, they’re just the raw material. We still have to make a script for our lives. We still have to fashion a vision for ourselves. We still have to be in the world -that’s a challenge that everybody faces and the reason that I can read- oh I don’t know- the great Russian novelist of the 19th century, the Dostoyevsky’s and the (toll?) stories. The reason I can read them and be enriched by them is not because I see my life in their narrative but it’s because their narrative is in the service of this existential challenge that all of us face -which is how to grow out of where we start into the fullness of our humanity -exactly the fullness of our humanity. That’s what the university is there for.

I believe the above quote is very true and I highly doubt that Tucker and Dr. Hansen would agree to Loury’s concern because what Loury said is what a progressive would say. We often hear of cancel culture. It seems the Republicans have cancel culture built into their ideology as they fear change and innovation. They want to go back to the old days of living a simple life. Understandably so, but I believe this stance is governed by fear and it’s holding us all back.

Look at what Orwell said. It’s been decades since he uttered those words and -here we are- madder than it was during his life and we should be mad as hell about it now!!
When will we grow the fuck up?


#29

You are right over the target with me and my approach @Mbohu … I grew up in a deeply liberal community in Boston so that shows you my tribal default programming. Today I approach everything from what I call a “spiritual” lens. I have many posts on my blog where I address the issues of “inner spiritual work” that I think we individually have to be willing to engage in.

After years of trying to fix the world I reached a place of spiritual peace when I finally realized that I had to fix me. The only thing I can actually control and manage is me. So rather than be triggered by hatred for Trump I tried to understand his appeal. This Victor Hanson guy does a good job explaining that from the right.

You @Mbohu have an ability to cloak or to expand your openness beyond yourself I appreciate that about you. I find those who are still vamped up in fighting mode that just the letters MAGA or BLM trigger emotional reactions that shut off rational and reasonable discourse.

Those who are highly emotionally engaged have a really hard time to defeat their own rigidity until they completely burn out. Thankfully they are few in number compared to the masses.

For those who want to change the world as I do, I think that change has to take-place one person at a time, working on changing themselves. I have a personal ideological work-out process that I use for myself and I invite others who realize that they too need to change to try it.

This is really hard work. If you can do this assignment honestly you will gain amazing clarity and prove your mastery over your own ego. Here’s the link of explanation for those who dare to push themselves.

https://the-spiritual-quest.com/2017/12/11/assignment-to-expand-your-spiritual-comprehension-are-you-up-to-the-task/


#30

Thanks for the long reply!
There is so much in this.

Since I feel there are multiple directions we could go from what you write, I’ll just make my comments to mostly one paragraph that sparks some ideas:

True dat! For sure!

Personally, I agree to some extent, but not completely. My personal experience shows me that a lot of focus on “waking up” before some basic “growing up” happened, can have very unstable results. (I spent the first 10 years of my adult life as a monk in a spiritual community very focused on “waking up” and while I feel it was tremendously beneficial to me, I met quite a few people that became somewhat unstable, because they really didn’t have the opportunity to do much “growing up” before all the “waking up”)
But beyond that I feel you can become unbalanced in both directions. People who have done a whole lot of growing up, without any focus on waking up, feel often rigid and overly serious to me. They sometimes feel like they “cannot see the forest for the trees”. They often have a real difficulty in dealing with people that (according to them) haven’t done as much growing up. Sometimes there is bitterness in this.
People who focus exclusively on “waking up” on the other hand are often ungrounded and have trouble dealing with “the real world” (which of course to them, doesn’t seem that real at all!)
They are sometimes open to spiritual grandiosity and are unable to recognize the immaturity of parts of their own psyche and can create quite some chaos, without even recognizing it.

Yes. I think you are absolutely right.

I see “shadow” a little differently. Yes, it often originates in some kind of trauma, but only when the trauma causes us to split off a part of ourselves (generally because we are not able to process the intensity of feelings related to that part, at the time the trauma occurs) This shadow is not always only a “bad” part of ourselves (i.e. “the golden shadow”)
I strongly believe (and experience this myself, and practice it with my clients) that shadow requires INTEGRATION more than SEPARATION.

This is where I maybe depart from complete agreement with you. I sense a strong conclusion in your writing that “someone else” (the elite? the ones “in control”, yes, even the Trump supporters…although I certainly know what you mean) is at fault, needs to be destroyed or conquered or changed, etc.
This to me does point somewhat in the direction of an unintegrated shadow. I am not saying that there is no problem out there, that these forces don’t exist, that some of your arguments aren’t true or perceptive, BUT the intensity of the OTHERING that I feel in this, is for me a sign that there is some projection mixed in with this. Some “evil” (really I don’t think it’s “evil” at the core), that is purely projected out and not also accepted inside…ending up in the very apt depiction of the last image you posted. (He is screaming at the world, or at the supposed perpetrators of what ails him, but he looks so much like the trouble is in himself, at least to some extent.–I saw the movie that this meme comes from and even in the movie, the cause of his ailments is as much internal as external…from what I remember)

Again: absolutely agree.
What I find, when I do this, is that I discover much more often a “hmmm, I don’t really know for sure” than a “truth” that is absolute and unchangeable–when I investigate any particular issue or area of inquiry.


#31

I think they should have kept the spiral in the model. It’s not a linear process. Maybe it a three headed ouroboros would be an improvement. Cleaning up leads to growing up leads to waking up or the other way. Yes, progressing too far too fast in any of the three without developing the other leads to instability - like a stool with to legs longer than the third.
Cleaning up is often overlooked around here, I’ve noticed.
I love rants - a person who rants is just on the verge of cleaning up while the person who hides anger behind waking up or growing up gets more out of balance and worse - doesn’t even suspect it.
People often may have to get a bit messy to clean up.
I honestly think that is a key missing ingredient in so many personal development movements - that messy dark wildness that we try to hide away from ourselves to the point that we don’t even want others to express it - lest we be reminded it’s in us.


#32

Well, I don’t see Trump supporters being in control in any way. On the contrary, they are out of control because they were radicalized by Trump- I actually feel sorry for them. Regarding shadow, I’m sure you would agree that not all things are driven by shadow. So the question arises: how can I make the distinction between projecting my shadow and the corporate state (i.e. the news media, corporations, and politicians) that lie to us all the time? Chris Hedges writes and lectures about the corrupt corporate state ad-nauseum. Is he projecting/othering too? I recall in one of his videos someone in the audience asked what drives him to write and speak. Chris said: anger. My sentiments exactly.

So, yes, you are right. I do feel very strongly about what I’ve been saying here and in other posts. Robert Augustus Masters says that when we are angry, as long as we don’t act it out by blaming, shaming, or name calling, it is healthy anger. So when I said that I believe we are all being adversely affected by menticide, what other reason could there be for the way things are? What are the underlying causes of our malaise in society so we can deal with them once and for all? Where is the foothold where I can rest my anger and frustration?
There are so many things we ought to be angry about and we are not angry enough at the way things are. And when we are angry, it’s for the wrong reasons as we’ve witnessed in the storming of the capitol. To make matters worse, Republicans refuse to take responsibility for it and are making feeble attempts to be Trump-like by appealing to the 70 some million who voted for Trump. In Erich Fromm’s book, Escape From Freedom he said

To understand the dynamics of the social process we must understand the dynamics of the psychological processes operating within the individual, just as to understand the individual we must see him in the context of the culture which molds him

He also said that

Man’s brain lives in the twentieth century; the heart of most men lives still in the Stone Age. The majority of men have not yet acquired the maturity to be independent, to be rational, to be objective. They need myths and idols to endure the fact that man is all by himself, that there is no authority which gives meaning to life except man himself. Man represses the irrational passions of destructiveness, hate, envy, revenge; he worships power, money, the sovereign state, the nation; while he pays lip service to the teachings of the great spiritual leaders of the human race, those of Buddha, the prophets, Socrates, Jesus, Mohammed—he has transformed these teachings into a jungle of superstition and idol-worship. How can mankind save itself from destroying itself by this discrepancy between intellectual-technical over maturity and emotional backwardness?

What I find discouraging -even demoralizing- is that the vast majority of people are not aware of what Fromm and other insightful authors are saying. Why is that? Why have our schools failed us on this? I ask these questions because it’s hard enough striving to free myself from my cultural conditioning, it’s harder still trying to do so in an often sick society. I believe our political leaders are culpable in perpetuating this sickness because, as Fromm implied, their regressive collective minds’ live in the past and they are acting it out in the present as they will do so in the future. To me, this is madness.


#33

Why the doom and gloom? Progressives hold ALL THE CARDS - White House, Senate, House - and the avant garde Progressives are right in line with Fromm pro-Marxists. Sounds like happy days ahead!


#34

Hi FermentedAgave,

When Obama made it to second term, it was then I did not vote for him because the promises he made, even with the best of intentions, did not materialized. I was deeply disappointed. So much so, that I lost complete faith in the Democratic party, liberals, progressives, and Bernie Sanders. I still have some faith in AOC but she too has her downside and that’s because the word socialism in the US has been infected with disdain and contempt. As Chris Hedges said,

To even call yourself a socialist in this country is to essentially remove yourself from the acceptable parameters of public discourse.

Yet many European countries have the word socialist in their respective parties.
The Democrats and Republicans are divided as ever and the mutual tormenting and attacks never ends which keeps us all divided. I agree with Rick Shenkman who said of Sociologist Shawn Rosenburg’s paper Democracy Devouring Itself: The Rise of the Incompetent Citizen and the Appeal of Right Wing Populism

Democracy is hard work. And as society’s “elites”—experts and public figures who help those around them navigate the heavy responsibilities that come with self-rule—have increasingly been sidelined, citizens have proved ill equipped cognitively and emotionally to run a well-functioning democracy. As a consequence, the center has collapsed and millions of frustrated and angst-filled voters have turned in desperation to right-wing populists.

When you asked why the doom and gloom? It’s either because my pessimism is based on all those books I read that you seem to regard as of no significance or that you are unaware of what is actually happening. While I felt that your comment was in jest, I would not be so nonchalant about the way things are and you might want to read some of Erich Fromm’s books before you throw him in as a Marxist.


#35

That’s completely up to you. I live in an amazing vibrant world. Actually the very best that humankind has ever devised .and. implemented. There is no other place on the plant in all of history, at least in my radical ignorant view. Lol!
And no offense intended, but I don’t have time to ruminate on failed academic fantasies from elite German philosophers that have led to justification for the worst atrocities in human history.


#36

@gnosisman

Here’s a very concise (more Hoover Institute…) conservative political scale discussion.

https://youtu.be/0iRvEPcQV3I
P.S. and if you listen to the end you will see self critique, perhaps biased but critique none the less of conservatism.


#37

I like that a lot! Thank you.

One thing that comes to mind is, that of course even that can be used for the wrong purposes, when it’s just trained as a skill, such as a lawyer’s or debate club president’s or skillful marketer’s ability to argue for any side whatsoever and use that in order to achieve specific (usually self-serving) purposes.

but of course, it is clear that you mean this to be used as a tool for self-awareness and not cynicism.


#38

@Mbohu
Are you getting what you intended out of the thread?


#39

Interesting discussion on relationship between individual and collective experience. (Peterson might be over caffienated… lol)


#40

Of course @Mbohu you’re right on with that. All attainments can be by used by the possessor’s in either polarity, this is what provides the clarity that occult masters reference in the Kybalion. In the spiritual quest there is only the individual working all alone on their own personal transformation. The alchemy of transformation is an individual work; we have to expel our own demons.

Most suffering we experience is in our spiritual space, Eckhart Tolle calls it the “pain body”. No matter what difficulties befall us, we’re the only person ultimately in charge of our own life. When we put blame on “the others” as being the “cause of our problems” we become completely debilitated and controlled by them … like we’re under a sorcerers spell.

The more intensity we put into faulting “the others”, the more we suffer … to the point of derangement if we don’t fix ourselves. The only measure of our individual progress is internal spiritual satisfaction and that is an exclusive attainment that only we define. You interact with life and create the exact life you choose for yourself.

We tend to project our own defects onto “the others” so we can blame them and exonerate ourselves to sooth our inner discomfort, but they actually control us. When we grow-up enough to realize that “we” need to change … we start to work on fixing ourselves and WOW how dramatically our life changes as a result.

With the intension of conquering our own internal fears that we project onto “the others” … we actually take back our power. Almost immediately we feel this internal power-shift from negative to positive. The more we mature and progress as individuals fixing ourselves, the better more holistic our world view becomes and the more joy and happiness we can experience. And even more better we can share this with others.

As Jesus said “There’s more joy in giving than in receiving” This is the spiritual quest I promote.

~ Peace :slight_smile: