Who could have predicted social media facilitating resistance to this extent?
@raybennett Several things came to mind with your mention of “life as a dance”:
–the Dancing Shiva (Shiva Nataraj), in which the ‘5-fold act of consciousness’ is symbolized: creation, preservation/maintenance/sustainment, destruction/dissolution, concealment, and revelation/grace. Is there anything else?
–the (Hinduism-based) statement of Deepak Chopra, that “life is a dance between the divine and the diabolical, with hopefully the divine always ahead, leading.”
–the dance between Putin’s dominator hierarchy and the growth hierarchy that pushes ahead, elevating orange and green (and teal. etc.) structures beyond Putin’s red-amber structure.
I recently watched the 2015 Netflix documentary “Winter on Fire” about a major episode in Ukraine’s fight for freedom. It covers the revolution of 2013-2014, the demonstrations during Yanukovych’s regime. Brutal dancing! Dirty dancing! And some poignant funerals and lovely music–the “ringing of the bells” that hadn’t been rung in about 800 years at the Eastern Orthodox Church. It’s a powerful documentary, available on You Tube now if you haven’t seen it and are interested in this particular slice of Ukrainian history.
@LaWanna
I can’t think of anything to add to the dancing.
With regard to Ukrainians I think I do see something happening to Ukrainians this past week.
Within this thing something related to accusations of “pessimism” as well, lol.
Ukrainian society has A LOT of flaws. If nothing else, they at the very least tend towards the pessimistic. Yet they are literally on the front lines defending Democracy against a tyrant.
At the same time, their struggle has been mostly ignored by “Team Teal” and “Team Green” until two weeks ago.
I’m curious of the degree to which Team Teal pats themselves on the back for as you say “elevating structures”, without recognizing the absolute necessity of the dirtiness going on in the trenches in places such as Ukraine. My observation is that Team Teal tends to try to keep their hands clean, which I see as absurd. They stay safe - by analogy they dance in only on the periphery of the dance floor. They believe they are influencing the center as trendsetters but fail to realize they can’t even see the center, much less effectively influence it.
I don’t want to drag down Team Ukraine right now - but yes, I see the dance going on there for what it is. My first interaction with Ukrainians was in Eastern Europe in the late 1990’s when organized crime ruled between Moscow and Bratislava, I tracked the events of its citizens rising up and using sticks and broken glass to topple well armed riot police firing real bullets while the population of The United States was deeply engrossed in “Game of Thrones” Season 4.
If @robbsmith finds me pessimistic and therefore unethical (and therefore by extension abusive towards children as well) I really have to wonder how he regards Ukranian Babuskas. Not the most optimistic demographic on the planet - no, not optimistic at all … yet they also are directly confronting Putin’s Red power structure with a greater deal of effectiveness than Integral diagrams, papers and discussions … I judge.
Here is a little test for everyone who is INTEGRAL. Below I give you a way to combat disinformation with virtually zero chance of any negative repercussions.
- Will you “just do it” and combat disinformation by a literal Tyrant by leaving your device on the webpage a little bit each day?
- Or will you respond in the fear that there is some kind of hacking going on, or that you might get a warning letter of some kind from your ISP that says you are naughty?
- Or Will you all form some kind of other Intellectual rationalization for just letting disinformation to spread unchecked
I’m curious about the fourth option. Autocracy wins. Biden fights it out for three more years, loses reelection, and the next US president is Trump, or some version of Trump, and withdraws from NATO. It seems like significant numbers of people actually want some form of religious autocracy here and in Europe…it that a possibility?
“Europe” is pretty hard to generalize about, and I don’t see the vast majority of Europe headed that way. I don’t see any appetite for religious wars or Autocracy in Europe - at least not West of Kyiv. Particularly not the Russian flavor of Autocracy, which many still alive have tasted.
The United States? Sure, why not Autocracy in America? It seems the majority in the United States want autocracy and to force the other side to follow their way. It’s clear in our foreign policy over the past 100 years and has silently moved into our domestic Politics.
But, yes - I also don’t believe there are only a “few possible outcomes” . I think when people do that as @corey-devos did, they kind of just want to keep it simple in their own minds.
Our global civilization has so many millions of moving parts and several of them are proving to be inadequate as others fail here and there.
What most westerners looking at this also fail to realize, even if Putin is toppled by other Russians - we’ve been there before, lol. Nobody remembers the events in Russia in the 1990’s lol?
There is a trend here, a certain commonality that nice polite academic types just seem to be completely clueless about, lol. - Russia - Iraq - Afghanistan. The same blinders are now going on with the mass media’s idealization of Ukranians and in this topic the hope that Russians will somehow be different the next time they form a government.
This isn’t me being down on Russians nor Ukrainians - it’s just pointing out that western academics usually have no clue at the grass roots level about the people they are forming theories about.
This isn’t the academic’s fault - I have a friend who was in Ukraine with the Peace Corps and even he didn’t get how deeply embedded - among other things - graft and corruption are in the society. More than just “society” - in the collective psyche.
One funny thing I see is that when the media sees westerners going into Ukraine now, they are referred to as volunteers and I haven’t seen the media ask any questions regarding financial compensation. I think most people watching the news think these volunteers are working as unpaid volunteers, while I’m pretty sure they are being well paid. Using 2004 - 2006 dollars, the going rate in Iraq for mercenary “volunteers” was about $15,000 per month, plus or minus depending on the expected danger.
This is just kind of a minor example of something that I just automatically expect, having been friends with British mercenaries who participated in Iraq and Bosnia (though in Bosnia for less pay).
The reason I bring this up is that the cogs of transformation to Democracy is greased with prodigious cash flow - but depending on the collective psyche of the target nation, that cash flow may never actually fundamentally change the culture. It often does, but sometimes does not.
Hey Ray, don’t you think you might be being a little hard on Team Teal (and Green)? The world is quite complex and undergoing many crises simultaneously; even the media is challenged to keep on top of every single crisis/situation/story that deservedly needs ongoing or constant attention. While you say Team Teal tries “to keep their hands clean…” I see it and would frame it a bit differently. Education is probably one of the most important needs in today’s world, education in general and also specifically about today’s world; along with a way to make sense of what is going on in today’s world. Plus, some people drawn to Integral are still trying to learn IT so as to simply apply it to their own lives. Team Integral is responsive, I think, to all of those needs, and in terms of world events, responds to the most current and critical issues–nothing more, nothing less. Neither you nor I know exactly how Integral Theory is or is not affecting the world, or how it will or will not affect the greater world in the future. I’m here because I resonate with it.
Since I’ve been participating at ILC, there have always been people who criticize Team Integral for not doing enough, not getting their hands dirty, not being “in the trenches.” To me, this comes back to the gunas: tamas, rajas, sattva. I think some Integral people use their sattvic (“light”) energy and their rajas energy (passion, desire, activity) to educate and sense-make; I see nothing wrong with this, and see that it is useful–just as I see that there is nothing wrong with getting one’s hands dirty and being in the trenches, and that that is also useful. Both are necessary.
I also see an issue with defining what is a trench? There is an idea of Integral, that I know I want to see in the world, but there is another force here. There are people (I don’t like to categorize anymore), from those I know, who believe we are in a fight for humanity and have a vision of the world, that the more I learn about it, I am pretty sure a lot of people would prefer but is not my vision at all. It’s what triggered the question about autocracy winning. The better way to say it would be what if another system emerges all together. The system I see being fought for is just not seen or spoken of by anyone that I am reading. I think there is a liberal version of what teal is, but there is something else, another version and I think it would be helpful to see it. I have been optimistic my whole life, I am not anymore, even before this happened. For me it’s like integral’s evil twin popped into the room…he has the advantage of surprise
My surface reply was “I don’t know, and only time will tell if it is enough or not enough.”
But then I realized that the question inferred a truth in my point. It’s not that I’m wrong, or that I’m completely whacko or off base or making things up. The question infers that I have a point, but also the opinion that I should not be addressing it in the way I am. Ironically, confirming the point I’m getting at. There is a strong refusal to look at or address ugly matters.
I don’t think this is a tamas, rajas, sattva issue - whether a person wants to build a foundation, light a bonfire, or sit and meditate in a cave - they still have to recognize why they are doing so. If a yogi goes to a cave to meditate because he is afraid to face war - that is not a “correct path”. If a man does not stand up to perceived injustice because he is afraid of his own anger, that is not a “correct path” (I specifically call out “men” because this seems to be an epidemic in the USA). If there was no injustice, the point is mot - but if there is perceived injustice and the reaction is avoidance because of a shadow, that is a major problem. Then we can go a step further and point out that it is even worse if the man who is afraid of his own anger not only withdraws out of fear, but tries to hinder another who is describing the injustice, again out of fear. If he is forced to recognize it - then he might have to face why he isn’t facing it. Much easier to tsk tsk others who are trying to describe problems.
So that’s what I’m concerned about many people who self-identify as Integral, but really have strong green shadows. Not whether they are actually taking action, but their reasons for not wanting to see the problems.
This leads me to a question that I don’t know the answer to, and I don’t think anybody does. Is a Teal society inevitable, or will it require blood? If not blood, at least a hell of a lot of sweat and tears.
Previous transitions have required blood. There were the American and French Revolutions that cemented the ideas of “freedom” and “liberty”, and later the Civil War was required to fulfill “equality”. The collateral damage of Liberty in France was Napoleon and his war against the entrenched Monarchies of Europe while the collateral damage of a Free and Equal USA was genocide of Native Americans. If we look back at the horrors of the religious wars that later allowed the Age of Reason, there seem to be numerous coats of blood painted as the base coat that enabled Green to stick.
That’s the frame I’ve been looking at the events going on in the USA and the world. Kind of always, but more intensely since 2000 and then again in 2012 and since 2016. I see those years as “branchings”, when humanity made decisions that set them on courses that could not then be undone.
What interests me isn’t whether others see the same thing, but the “why” behind what they see, and if their “why” is congruent with their daily activities. Usually it isn’t and we get things like “SUV driving Yoga mom antivax Qanon conspiracy theorists”, for example.
Since I could very well be wrong, if someone believes that humanity will transcend to Teal just naturally and without any struggle - I see that as a valid point also. Gautema believed this. All we have to do then is get everyone to practice Vipassana daily, lol.
@Michelle I know what you mean about the possibility of “autocracy winning.” There is a lot of information about its spread. This site tracks democracy, and how it is tending toward demise in some parts of the world, towards autocracy. In Europe, Hungary and Poland are sort of “on the edge,” along with a few other Eurasian places. https://freedomhouse.org/article/new-report-attacks-democracy-intensify-autocracy-spreads-europe-and-eurasia
@raybennett I basically agree with @Sidra, that we’re all in the trenches in one way or another. The point I was trying to make, perhaps ineffectively, was that there are different kinds of trenches: the Ukrainians are in one kind of trench, protestors on the streets in Russia and elsewhere are in another, etc., and the intellectual/sense-making sphere is another kind of trench, where disagreements and different points of view and verbal conflict can and do arise. For socially conscious people who also have a dedicated spiritual practice, that is another “trench” of sorts, where suffering and injustice can be fully felt and addressed in particular ways (see Nomali’s episode in the other thread on the Ukrainian situation). As many trenches perhaps as there are people.
I think we probably agree then, except that I see a desire in many not to hear or see anything except what is immediately in front of their “trench”, and to pish posh reports from other “trenches” as “bad for morale” if we are going with the trench analogy.
When other stages emerged, the world was not so connected. Personally, I don’t see the transition to Teal needing to be bloody, it’s more the whole spiral never goes away and most of it is very bloody. What I no longer see happening is a Teal leadership that drives the world (I used to think this was possible). The world will be spread over vast levels of consciousness with such extremely differing realities that I don’t know how we can ever manage it all. A significant portion of the world believes that after the right person drops a nuclear bomb and creates the apocalypse, God will come to Earth, restore it to its original Eden state. Hopefully we never find “the right person” to do that!
For me the question I now have, since I no longer see it being possible that this many stages can communicate with each other, is can we coexist. The other question I have is why so many in countries that have systems that allow for higher consciousness to emerge, do so many stay in other levels. I used to think “helping people to evolve” was the thing to do, now I just don’t know what’s the right thing to do. There is level subjectivity to what is injustice. Is forcing someone to conform to a “higher level” the right thing to do?
My dad asked to participate in the thing the Pope called for which was to answer the question “why did you leave the church?” I hardly knew what to say, really because the church doesn’t want ME. I have had so many conversations with him about this and there is no where to go.
It’s an interesting time, sad and scary to feel at the real edge of evolution…I guess it will show us what it has instore.
@Michelle You packed so much thought-provoking material into this one post Michelle; thank you! Here is what came up for me.
I have relatives who believe this, stemming from their amber-mythic stage and fundamentalist religious belief. Whenever I hear it, I find myself alternatively thinking of the “theory of dissipative structures” (by chemist Ilya Prigogine–easy to find info about this online), which is (minimally) an orange-rational stage general theory of the dynamics of systems (including societal systems), and a “scientific model of transformation at every level.” According to the theory, instability is the key to transformation, with the possibility of a sudden (and non-linear) re-ordering into a higher order when the system is fraught with magnificent stress, crises, chaos, conflict. Of course, total destruction of the system/world is also a possibility rather than that higher order, if the stress, crises, chaos, and conflict can’t be “damped.” But, I do hold to the possibility of this (positive) “shift” if you will, and without sacrificing rationality, can connect, if not to the exact beliefs or means or end-product, to the desires of those fundamentalists for a better world. (Sidenote: I do have “agreements” (or requirements 
) with some of these relatives that we do not talk politics or religion ever–not to dissuade communication or understanding, but because some of the more fanatical and bad-mannered do not talk with me or to me, but at me, loudly and with no understanding of what it means to ‘listen.’ I do have my limits )
It’s a good question. Some religions have found that difficult if not impossible. And in nature, clearly some plants can’t co-exist in close proximity: pine trees and roses (the latter requiring much nutrient-richer soil), beans and beets (negatively affect one another’s pH levels), for example. But there is also history of different human groups being able to co-exist, although not without some friction/conflict/bad feelings. I’m thinking of school desegration, and other race-related issues like separate drinking fountains, restrooms, etc. of the past that have ended. As for stages of development, we are co-existing now, again, not without conflicts and stresses which may possibly, possibly contribute to that jump to a higher order.
There’s two sides to this, of course.
Can “we” exist with the other?
Can the other exists with “us”?
I think the degree to which these are not true determines the degree of conflict.
Also, I think failure to recognize the extent to which the other cannot live with “us” can lead to becoming overwhelmed by the other. An example is a temple of Buddhist monks being slaughtered by a group that refuses to allow them to live.
To a lesser degree, we see in the USA two opposite extremes that refuse to allow the other to exist, and have been escalating for decades.
When we take the stand that, for example, we will not tolerate bigots to exist in our society - we have to also understand that the bigot may not accept that. This isn;t to say that we should allow bigots, but we must know from the get-go that they might not just say “yeah, ok I will cease to exist”. Or to a lesser extent “OK, I will give up all my childhood heroes who were based on unhealthy male dynamics”, lol. When the stakes are higher and we are talking about high levels of power such as Putin and Russian Oligarchs, the stakes are much much higher and if we want to ante into that game we have to understand that before we join in.
I see the whole 2020 BLM crisis in this way. The United States as a society wants racial equality, but not enough of the population is willing to accept the costs of that.
In the beginning, the cost of recognizing a person’s right not to stand for the pledge of allegiance was a bridge too far. Equality, yes - but don’t get uppity just yet.
Then holding police accountable was a bridge to far. Equality, yes - but don’t complain about the dark secret of police brutality. We as a majority of society don’t want to see that.
And so on. The majority of US society is in favor of equality - just as long as they aren’t forced to see unpleasantness on their TV News.
It’s like when I first learned Integral in my 20’s, I was in a more green centered place and I interpreted it as a path for peace and more harmonious living. I think I see it all a bit more clearly now and see that even if I or a whole system can integrate the better sides of each stage that does not make the stage itself gravitate to only it’s healthy side.
I like your analogy to plants. I think that is really insightful. It would be interesting to use that in a way to think about cultivating more healthy communities. I tried that a bit with a school program I did years ago. It actually had some success, but COVID it and the rest is history!
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I have read with great interest and attention your article Robb, and it has been very illustrative and valuable.
However, there are several issues I would like to comment on:
First: Regarding the question of the possibility of using violence and weapons and therefore of going to war against an aggressor country, you almost tiptoed. From my point of view, there comes a time when, due to the aggression of certain actors (invading armies, jihadist attacks, massacres in schools) you have to “you have to get wet” (a Spanish expression that means that you have to “get dirty” in whatever we are dealing with…!!! That is to say, there may come a time when, as if in a diabolical dilemma, we will have to resolve to take up arms to defend the principles on which we base our open and democratic societies if we do not want these die together with us buried under the boots of despotism and tyranny.
Second: The actions that can be carried out from the network society that you mention are not at all exempt from damages and losses. Especially for the population in general and much more so for those who live on the threshold of poverty… The first to suffer from these measures may be the people who have the least responsibilities in aggressive and belligerent actions…
Third: These actions of the network society have a slower pace than the actions of an invading army well equipped with military weapons… and so, in the case at hand, which is the Russian invasion of Ukraine, while we wait for the sanctions imposed on Russia are working, the Russian army has blown up a nuclear power plant with the danger that this implies of radioactive contamination and has bombed a maternity hospital with it is not known how many children died under its rubble among the many atrocities it is committing. .!!!
For all this, your article seems somewhat naive and deluded to me in the analysis of an episode such as the savage and inhumane invasion of an independent country like Ukraine by the armies commanded by an oppressive and tyrannical dictator and autocrat like Putin… !!!
I am not saying at all that violence, weapons and war are the first option, not even the second that we have to adopt in the face of conflicts like this, but I do think that it should be considered as an “in extremis” option when nothing remains to be done. to do, or when this is a lesser evil in the face of a much greater one…!!!
Of course, in this case, the possibility of a nuclear war is on the table and it is, by the way, a not inconsiderable trick, that Putin with perverse intelligence is playing… but that is precisely one of the dangers that we run as humanity when an “artifact” emerged at a certain level is used by lower levels or perversely from the level in which it arises. The final result of this, if that is so, is what seems to me that can put us on the verge of a true Age of Transformation… either we get out of it or we self-annihilate as a species…!!!
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While I appreciate the importance of a 3rd+ person meta-analysis that the Integral community has been so brilliant with I can’t help but feel that there is a lack of 1st person experience in actually implementing Integral sensibilities into everyday existence in which one is interacting with people expressing themselves from all levels of development. I’ve spent years interacting with all levels and have attempted to find a common ground with people at Red, Amber, Orange, Green, etc. This has not been easy and I’ve had exchanges that went very poorly and even became dangerous especially with minds projecting from “Red.”
For decades I’ve had an underlying intuition of the unity of everything and that everyone was “all of it and none of it.” While my world view may be Integrally informed I’m still red, amber, orange, green, etc… I’ve learned in the 1st person that a person at Red doesn’t truly honour a person at higher(more expanded) levels unless they display a strong Red energy. Red looks at other levels as weak until you stand up to it with your Red energy. This is not to be misunderstood as a regression but an acknowledgment of the fact that we are online with all of it!
I just don’t see a true leader being someone in a disassociated bubble of academia or some corporate boardroom, etc. My idea of a leader is someone that can connect with every aspect of being that exists in the 1st/2nd person. In a past post I’d asked people to give an example of interacting with people from all levels while coming from an Integral level and I believe only two people responded(Thank you!).
If you want to run a country don’t forget to sweep the floors and clean the toilets… Once you polarise into a 3rd person perspective you lose touch with the blood, sweat, and tears of all that is! Know the GRIT yet hold the GRACE!
Best regards,
Brian
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Mr Robb Smith.
A friend introduced me to Integral Dynamics , I like it , and share what little I have learned with friends , unfortunately when I pointed out the perceived limitations of the system I was labelled Cynical. OH HO!
Intergral disciples don’t like to be confronted or challenged about their viewpoint.
I like the system but some of it’s followers …honestly and truly I can only describe as Intellectual Idiots … please take note of this and do some self examination.
Now on the topic of Russia as a Catalyst . at first I thought I was reading from a CIA handbook on the evil Mr Putin. Or an essay by Boris Johnstone
I live as a meditator and a seeker of truth. Am totally fascinated by the Russia Ukraine drama and so have settled on the Russian point of view.
Rather better listen to what the Russians have to say about their Dramas than listen too what the west has to say about the Russians.
After all the Russia has produced some very Intelligent people.
SMITHY…YOU HAVE NOT DONE YOUR HOMEWORK , your info about Russia TOTALLY LACKS HONEST AUTHENTIC ENQUIRY .
Your integral description on Putin I cannot Debate . A man such as he is most probably required to deal with what Russia is facing viz a viz Ukraine and NATO interventionism.
Your predictions of Russia falling apart and almost every comment that you have made about Putin and Russia , I can only call Stupid and uninformed. Where the Hell do you get your Information BBC ? The Guardian ? Hillary Clinton ?
Honestly man !! Thats all I have to say
Pathetic
If you would like to further your education on what is happening there plz feel free to ask me…and then you can attempt to prove me misinformed.
Yours
with very little respect due.
Bob
…On another Note . I just watch part of Jeff Salzmans Putins War on Modernity.
Jeffrey Stares that Putin is Pre Modern Authoritarian …opposing the Modernism of.
The Ukraine
I say the opposite is true
I am sorry but I have to speak up.
You guys are so out of touch with what is happening in the Ukraine.
Have you seen the televised proof that the Nazi Azov Battalion has Zelenski by the balls.
Ukrainian children have been taught to Hate Russians since 2014
That Highly motivated Ukrainian Military have been bombing Donbass and Ludansk for 8 years , terrorising innocent human beings.
How about a Buddhist Prayer for the poor people of the Donbass.
You People have really got to get real …Seriously !
Gautam the Buddha died 2500 years ago there have been thousands of Buddhas since then , and apart from the Living lineages of Sariputta , Mahakashap et al . the numbers of mediocre Buddhists has been growing ever since,
Now we have Living Buddhas walking the Planet bringing light to Modern Human beings. Buddha was teaching to Indian people 2500 years ago
Osho, John de Ruiter , Vasant Swaha, Papaji, Mooji, Adhya Shanti, Baba Purnananda, Eckharte Tolle . People with Balls as well as Hearts.
I am not one of them but the pull of awakening is what drives me .
I challenge you to Authentically listen to the voice of the Russians rather than the very swift Popular Yellow and Blue Armband psychosis.
I like Integral Teachings but as a man who knows there Inner Cauldron I find people like Jeff Salzman Insipid and uninspiring