Russia Is Catalyzing the Transformation Age


#64

@FermentedAgave
A slightly more informed opinion includes the data that Russia started transforming it’s military in 2008, and

As recently as 2015, an informed Russian commentator could cast doubt on the effectiveness of the transformation and reequipment program overall,

also

Furthermore, continuing significant structural changes in the Ground Forces during 2016 mean that any assessment of this area describes a work in progress.

So, you can continue to make arguments based on zero actual facts or analysis, or attempt to only include partial and misleading facts to spin a narrative that fits your preferred political opinions.

But frankly, you’ve been shown wrong time and time again and as a result of you being just plain demonstrably wrong so many times I really have a very low regard for your opinions.

It’s far more likely that Putin’s primary criteria for invading Ukraine was the readiness of his Army to do so.

According to Gerasimov, “today [Russia is] acquiring priceless combat experience in Syria. It is essential for this to be analyzed in the branches of service and the combat arms at both the operational and tactical levels, and for a scientific conference to be held on the results of the military operations.”11 A series of public and closed conferences in Moscow from the end of 2016 to early 2017 did precisely this, examining the shortcomings of arms and equipment in operational use in Syria and looking at optimization of organization and logistics for foreign deployments.12


#65

My own hunch is that this was the timetable regardless of who won the 2020 election. IOW, it would have happened during Trump’s second administration all the same. I think Putin was absolutely banking on the West being far more fractured and fragmented than it proved to be, after Trump created so much strain among our alliances. But this is just conjecture, and I hold my own opinions lightly.

Maybe Putin was banking on Biden’s low approval ratings as a signal that the American response would be fractured and hamstrung by our own political cynicism.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Are you asking whether destroying Ukraine is itself “for the greater good”, or if the “greater good” was an unintended consequence of the invasion? If the former, then no, I do not think an invasion of a modernizing sovereign nation was in anyone’s “greater good”. If the latter, then sure? Maybe? I think the potential for greater good is certainly emerging, as documented in Robb’s essay, if we can just figure out how to shake off the delusions produced by all the propaganda we are swimming in. But there is also the potential for a far greater evil here, if things continue to escalate toward possible nuclear warfare.

In the long view, history bends toward greater goodness. Amber has “more goodness” than red, orange has “more goodness” than amber, green has “more goodness” than orange, etc.

In the short view, it’s an awfully bumpy road, paved with human suffering.


#66

There has to be a desire of the target population to do so. Progress. Learning and development in all quadrants cannot be forced. This is the exact problem in the United States where most of the population refuse to access Green and most efforts to force them backfire.


#67

There absolutely is .some. truth to this. There are power games in play, culture wars, battles of ideology.

The difference is that Consrrvatives operate in the world in which we actually live and work. Meanwhile Progressives seemingly want their ideological changes at any and all costs.
Zero Carbon is a great concept on paper, until energy costs for energy we actually can use today drive historic inflation. It’s a heavy burden for the Americans least able to absorb the increased costs. Something as simple as $6 gas, rising rents, and foods is hardly an artifact of the Media narratives. So let’s not blame folks “not buying what you’re selling” as purely a PR and education campaign. As @Brian_Downey said “Integralists forget to keep the business of society” (paraphrasing, apologies if I’m off) running whilst soaring in 3rd Person Omniscient noospheres. I would add the occasional emotive I sight further abstracts from reality and humanity itself.

Something I’ve mentioned before is our Progressives seemingly live primarily in the domains of government apparatchik, psychological services, sociological services, public education and politics.

Most Conservatives would prefer to ignore politics and live their lives, do their works, worship as the please, and essentially have as little government as possible. But I think Conservatives, Centrists, and Liberal Left see the fallacy in leaving politics to the white glove philosophers.

As a rational Progressive, do you see any benefits to the US Citizenry and to broader global populations for what Progressives might see as 2-steps back?

Yup. Trump claimed to have been negotiating most of our Germany based troops to move to Poland. Don’t know if Joe thought that a good idea or not.


#68

Yeah, Trump claims a lot of stuff. Most of the time he lies, so what Trump claims is irrelevant in a facts based discussion.

Do you have another reliable source besides a habitual liar for this claim?


#69

One dimension I don’t see discussed much in Integral materials or conversations is the aspect of cognitive ability. Just as we wouldn’t expect a 6 year old to understand LGBTQ+++ arguments, would we expect someone that is peddling as fast as they can stocking shelves at Walmart to grasp geopolitics?
As a Christian, I don’t see in the Integral community much effort to communicate Integral Theory to non geeks.
I’ll swag a guess that most everyone on on that flips a page on anything Integral is in at least the top 1/5th of cognitive ability. That’s a pretty narrow audience. Every other heirarchy or spiritual practice on the planet does look to serve the 4/5ths that aren’t super geeky.
It’s a missing for IT.


#70

LoooL.
More partial facts.

There were already 4,500 troops in Poland
Trump (Pompeo) added 1,000
Biden added 3,000

The 1,000 Troops Trump “added” were just shifted over from Germany. Not really an addition to forces, just a relocation. For some reason Trump wanted 12,000 troops out of Germany and only 1/12th of them were sent to Poland.

Come on, man.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/08/16/pompeo-inks-deal-to-support-more-american-troops-in-poland/


#71

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/08/16/pompeo-inks-deal-to-support-more-american-troops-in-poland/


#72

Come on Ray. Trump and Pompeo were creating strategic partnerships to effect real change. Your buddy Biden and Always Blink First Blinken are simply looking for despot leaders with which to negotiate their next surrender.

And to be fair to Blink First Biden, having troops, tanks, aircraft, missiles, artillery across a barbed wire fence from Hunters friends did put Hunters friends under pressure.


#73

The difference is that Consrrvatives operate in the world in which we actually live and work. Meanwhile Progressives seemingly want their ideological changes at any and all costs.

I disagree, as evidenced by trying to overturn elections, sweeping anti-abortion laws, “don’t say gay” restrictions on speech, corporate lobbying, and regulatory capture. Did you hear how Missouri is trying to make abortions for ectopic pregnancies illegal?

I think you have some outdated stereotypes about progressives that are reinforced by your own media bubbles. The left also lives in the world where we actually live and work, which is why they emphasize things like social safety nets, because they can see how many people are falling through the gaps of the world they live in. And why they push for climate change solutions, because they see the world where they actually live and work becoming increasingly unstable and unsustainable.

I disagree, to the extent that much of our inflation is coming from selfish profiteers who are capitalizing on the chaos produced by covid and the culture wars. The price of oil, I understand, has recently gone down 20%, but prices remain the same at the pump, while the oil companies continue to pull in a historically high profit margin. Corporate-controlled media is exactly what gives cover to this sort of malignancy, by keeping people focused on the amber vs. green culture wars while MOM laughs its way to the bank.

I personally think this is why our culture wars went into overdrive after the OccupyWallStreet movement way back when, because that was the first time MOM actually felt any real threat from the pitchforks. We quickly learned how easy it is to keep people locked into unresolvable LL conflict, so that real LR accountability and transformation can be prevented.

Wait, really? We are ALWAYS talking about cognitive stages of development. It’s not the only important line of development, but it is primary, being “necessary but not sufficient” for the development of almost all our other lines.

You are being generous with your “top 1/5 of cognitive ability” estimate. I’d say it’s more like the top 3-5%, developmentally who are capable of actually understanding this material, and who are capable of making their own subject into object long enough to dislodge themselves from whatever narrow ideology they’ve grown up in.

If a person hasn’t yet grown through green, then there is very little of Integral that they are actually capable of understanding.

Of course, when the U.S. was founded, we had a very similar challenge — the vast majority of the world was at red and amber stages, while Orange was only at about 10% of the population or so. But as Ken sees it, 10% is just about the right number where we start to see the developmental avant garde beginning to seep into culture, creating the potential for a new “tipping point” that can send history in a completely new direction.

The same with the 20th century, when we saw about 10% or so of the population at the new Green stage of development, which then spilled over into civil rights, environmentalism, etc.

The hope is that organizations like Integral Life can act as an attractor to help eventually facilitate a new “tipping point” where integral values begin to trickle down into the rest of our culture, and we can recognize the need for a new kind of leadership that transcends the petty divisions between narrow 1st-tier ideologies.

Just as we wouldn’t expect a 6 year old to understand LGBTQ+++ arguments

It’s funny, because I remember talking to my daughter about “LGBTQ+++ arguments” at about that age. In a very basic way, of course — sometimes boys can love other boys, and girls can love other girls, and that is perfectly okay. Some kids have two moms, some kids have two dads, and that is also perfectly okay. Love is love, and you are allowed to love anyone you want to love. You know, the sort of very basic conversation that is now illegal to have in Florida schools, due to conservative restrictions on free speech.

She was 100% capable of understanding this.

That said, yeah, there is a real “pearls before swine” issue when it comes to having integral conversations publicly. Largely because pre-integral folks find their way into those conversations, and try to assert their own ideological narratives and assumptions.

People are constantly looking for a reason to disagree, and to completely write off someone else’s perspective because it does not fit cleanly into their own ideology. It takes a genuinely integral mind to step out of that sort of matrix.


#74

Again - fuck off with your bullshit.

The only “buddy” I might have is possibly Zelinsky, lol. The fact that he stood up to Trump is a bonus to all the other greatness he is.

I posted factual numbers.

What about 4,500 troops were already in Poland do you not understand? What about only 1,000 were added (but not actually added - just shuffled) under Trump do you not understand?

Why can’t you see that Trump did not rescue the world, but instead the Department of Defense continued the same trends and policies through Obama / Clinton, Trump and Biden.


#75

@corey-devos At some point you really need to consider the concepts of “Self Determination” and “Government by the people for the people”.

Yes we have a Federal government but you insist on thinking YOU and your Ideologues should be able to wield Federal powers of enforcement like a Joseph Stalin or Mao or Castro or Xi or Putin. This is a very young conversation Corey. Would Piaget and Kohlberg tag it as maybe 8 years old, 13 perhaps?

The people of Texas get to say. The people of Missouri get to say. The people of NY and California get to say how MOST of what effects them works in their state. Very simply Coloradians get to Self Determine MOST things in the State of Colorado. Just as Arizona will elect a Governor that will close the border and sue the Federal government for trashing our State.

If you have a problem with this then AMEND THE CONSTITUTION. You’re plopped down in the greatest Liberal Democracy the world has ever known. It has very straight forward change mechanisms. SO HAVE AT IT!

Step #1 should be to figure out how IT can appeal, communicate with the non-geeky 80% of the population that is currently unaddressed.

So here we go again - No Conservative, myself specifically, has clarity of thought since you’ve defined the issue of “media bubbles”. You aren’t completely wrong, but there is the issue of doing the work, running the businesses, feeding the families, maybe taking the crew on vacation if the government will let us. By continuing to claim it’s simply a “public relations issue” is non-intellectual, non-respectful, and frankly a power play to dis-empower your fellow Citizens.

Can you accurately describe the global, national and local petroleum and gasoline markets? I doubt it.
You make no mention of the regulatory impacts that the DNC has propagated throughout the Administrative Apparatchik nor of the geopolitical impact of fueling Putin, Maduro, Kerry’s Ayahotla machines of destruction.

And Corey, it’s quite all right. WE GET IT. Climate Change and Progressive’s Zero Carbon Emissions is a “no sacrifice is too high, no cost is too much” for every single American.

I agree completely that there are positive outcomes from say the Progessive’s “tip of the spear” movements like BLM and Antifa. The nation is learning. We are highly unlikely to have as many unarmed black men killed by police. And to Progressives, whatever the costs are worth it, right?

Just as with the Jan 6th Block Party, it scared the living shit out of the Democrats. it was fine for Antifa to throw molokov cocktails at law enforcement. But hey hold on a minute, Nancy has some ice cream to eat and a $200M park to build in her front yard. So Nancy might have some ice cream melt, but on a positive note I think it’s good for a little thought about “by the people for the people” to get instilled into our Beltway elite.

That’s the self-aggrandizing hope. Do the “Integral Elite” ever sit on in a park with a microphone to see what passers by might think? it’s fine to sip some spoiled tea at a Boulder yoga studio, but might want to take this stuff into the streets to see if Billy Bo and Betty Sue can grok the pitch. You might be surprised how intelligent they might be, even if not so steeped in Neo Marxist teachings.

LOL. it fits your narrative of divisiveness. YOU as a parent should and do determine what is shared with your children. I applaud you. Do you want a home room teacher on the play ground to have that same discussion with your daughter? Do you want the gym teacher to have that discussion with your daughter? Maybe you do. And maybe another parent doesn’t see it as appropriate. Again - by the people for the people.


#76

I served up “it’s Trump’s fault” on a silver platter and you missed it.

Trump negotiating moving our eastern European forces out of Germany into Poland would put long lasting strategic pressure on Putin. Essentially you could either blame Trump, or blame Blink First Biden for pussing out.

What’s interesting to me is I think you fundamentally would like to see the US act on the global stage, but are frustrated that it doesn’t appear that it happens much.

I think you’ve been too caught up in, as Corey would call it, the Leftist media echo chamber to see some of the things that Bad Orange Man did do well, which we heard about often in the Conservative media echo chamber.

What strategically did Obama do in Eastern Europe that Trump inherited and continued on with?


#77

I noticed that but prefer not to engage in ESP, God Mode mind reading or any other silliness.

Again - I think you give Putin far to little credit for being able to formulate a plan without needing to check with the United States about it. In fact, I see Putin as capable of manipulating Obama, Clinton, Trump and Biden to react according to his plan.

Well, you can project all you want onto me, but I don’t have to do more than listen to what Trump actually says to see him as a complete moron. You act like it’s impossible to actually hear one of his speeches while standing next to another person and we both look at each other and both say “what the fuck is that dumbass talking about?” That incident actually happened to me in a store with a stranger, lol.

Not really, no. I would want the United States to return to some kind of morality or at least logical consistency before acting again on the world stage. The United States needs to get it’s shit together before it can start telling other countries what they should do or not do.
I personally know several thousand Non-US NATO soldiers and I believe they are capable of standing up to Russia while the United States get its act together and gets through its midlife crisis.

I’ve already provided you with several links. Can you read those? For example, the 4,500 troops added (not just reshuffled) to Poland before Trump’s day 1.

Also, an interesting tidbit here - I know first hand (because my job was talking to Eastern European NATO officers and soldiers on a daily basis) that George W was trying to push for Antiballistic Missile systems in Eastern Europe … and that is pretty much the start of Putin’s efforts to rebuild his Army to invade Europe - before 2008.
Not laying the blame, I see both sides of it. But just saying if we want to trace what started Putin being paranoid, it was NATO expansion that occurred prior to 2008.


#78

@FermentedAgave
Here is a major limitation I’ve noticed you have - when I shift the perspective of the discussion outside of mainstream Left / Mainstream Right US political media, you seem unable to follow the discussion and you exert every effort to bring the discussion back to that limited and unproductive framing.


#79

I think that you didn’t surround yourself with so many straw men, you wouldn’t have anyone to argue with :slight_smile:

Case in point:

“you insist on thinking YOU and your Ideologues should be able to wield Federal powers of enforcement like a Joseph Stalin or Mao or Castro or Xi or Putin”

“WE GET IT. Climate Change and Progressive’s Zero Carbon Emissions is a “no sacrifice is too high, no cost is too much” for every single American.”

“it was fine for Antifa to throw molokov cocktails at law enforcement.”

Your buddy Biden and Always Blink First Blinken are simply looking for despot leaders with which to negotiate their next surrender.

“it’s fine to sip some spoiled tea at a Boulder yoga studio”

There are all tremendously bad faith comments, purposely distorting our views and pushing them to what you see as an extreme. I’m not sure why you continue to put words in my mouth or mischaracterize the things I say in bad faith, other than the fact it makes it a lot easier for you to feel like you’ve scored a point.

Just so you know, not a single Integral Life employee lives in Boulder, so you can stop repeating whatever stereotype it is that you have in your head about us.

“At some point you really need to consider the concepts of “Self Determination” and “Government by the people for the people”.”

I’m curious how far you’d be willing to take your argument. So you think it is OK for legislators in Missouri to make abortions for ectopic pregnancies illegal — which guarantees that women who suffer ectopic pregnancies (1 in 50 of all pregnancies) will die on the table, because there is no other medical intervention for this — because that is the “will of the people”. You believe that is within the a state’s rights for self-determination.

So what if the “will of the people” wants to, say, make it illegal for democratic voters to own property in Alabama? Or for stores to refuse business to any/all gay people, where states can create a vigilante snitch system where neighbors can report each other for being gay? Or for teachers in a school to out gay students to family members? Hey, it’s all “the will of the people”, right?

“If you have a problem with this then AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.”

We already did, it’s called the 14th amendment, which was the legal basis for Roe vs. Wade before activist judges decided that precedent no longer matters.

Huh?

“You aren’t completely wrong, but there is the issue of doing the work, running the businesses, feeding the families, maybe taking the crew on vacation if the government will let us.”

And you seem to think that folks on the left don’t “do the work, run the businesses, feed the families, maybe take the crew on vacation”? This is another bizarre straw man right here.

“Do you want a home room teacher on the play ground to have that same discussion with your daughter?”

If, say, a 7 year old kid was being bullied in class because they have two dads — then yes, I would 100% want a home room teacher to intervene and say “hey, some families have two dads, some have two moms, and that is okay.” However, free speech has now been successfully restricted by conservatives in Florida, so this sort of speech is no longer legal. Or is it only “limiting free speech” when the left does it, but “the will of the people” when the right does it?

Ray said:

Here is a major limitation I’ve noticed you have - when I shift the perspective of the discussion outside of mainstream Left / Mainstream Right US political media, you seem unable to follow the discussion and you exert every effort to bring the discussion back to that limited and unproductive framing.

I tend to agree. As far as I can tell, you seem ONLY interested in narrow, partisan right vs. left conversations, and tend not to engage in any other topic. Even when many of your arguments and assumptions are challenged/refuted with actual falsifiable facts, you ignore those facts and immediately shift the conversation to bad faith mischaracterizations of our interiors and intentions. Which is why I continue to ask, are you sure this is the right space for you? You don’t seem very interested in integral ideas or perspectives at all, only in asserting your own partisan ideology. As I said earlier, criticisms of integral coming from folks who cannot demonstrate an embodied understanding of integral, can more often than not be dismissed.

Edit: yet another example of the regressive push toward barbarism. The family of rapists in Idaho can now sue medical providers for aborting pregnancies that occur from rape. The will of the people! (Except, you know, the will of rape victims and women suffering from lethal ectopic pregnancies…)

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1503782553676918788?s=21


#80

Also, I ask that this conversation be moved over to the Disinfo thread, as we have yet again allowed the conversation about Ukraine to be sidetracked by narrow partisan comments.


#82

This is what I love about the Slavs.
muah!


#83

Reality is often stranger than fiction.

I guess Orange is still alive and well in Ukraine and there are enough farmers who are in this situation that the government has to make their policy clear:


#84

I thought this was relevant to your discussion with Brother Tequila above.

https://twitter.com/andriyyermak/status/1504495049425498112?s=21