Spiritual Peace … Is Fairness and Equality The Answer

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#21

Hi @excecutive

Can you clarify what you’re intending to say when you use “extinct” or “extinction”?

I would argue that Humanity has already realized organizations at a high consciousness level that are definitely self sustaining - and also changing, morphing, growing. But what we have are many clashing world views, Noospheres, ideologies. And yes, some ideologies or vision “Noospheres” will essentially become extinct (odd term to use really in a discussion of thoughts but I’ll go with it) as they are subsumed into others. Marxism is a perfect example. Marxism has been the single greatest spread of misery and death in the history of humankind. Marxism has a perfect track record of collapsing in on itself. It fails every single time anyone tries to implement, yet the ideas are recycled by yet another group of media, politicians, academics or students with disregard of the failure rate or misery caused.

Should we not, at some point, simply start to rule out failed ideologies as “highly unlikely to get us to 2nd Tier”? Or perhaps it was just a matter of timing?

Ones that I would throw on the great heap of humanity’s “interesting ideas that sound great but always work out horribly so lets not try to build our society on them” would include:

  • Military Governments
  • Hereditary Monarchy
  • Theocracy
  • Communism/Socialism (that’s Marxism just to be clear)
  • Oligarchy

#22

Good morning @Julia248

If I can be so bold as to try and unravel a few things?

Aware of and agree with Billionaires run amok with yacht parties in Davos to architect the “Big Reset”. Do not agree. Billionaires that throw $100M’s at our elections (at least in the US), including Zuckerberg’s $350M targeting most influential local election offices (not campaigns, election offices) based on FB algorithms having determined as “key precincts”. Do not agree. Google’s ability to demonetize (pick political winners and losers) political views counter to their “corporate culture” agendas? Don’t agree. Google, Facebook, and Amazon promoting their own profitability through search results, ad placements and product offerings. No. Bloomberg spending $16M to reinstate 4000 felons voting ability in Florida, in addition to his last minute $500M frantic flurry to win the Democratic nomination. Nope. Or the DNC promoting Biden over the clear front runner Sanders for the party nomination. Don’t agree. US citizens not having an arbitrary limit on how much money they can make or accumulate? Yes

Do you think the Integral Community here looks to actively “include” Conservatives in their quest for Social Reform?


#23

I agree 100% with you! … By extinction I mean if we lose our biological or organic self-regulating or self adjusting ecosystem and let one-side of human intellect alone take over; humanity as we know it will go extinct. Perhaps it already has gone through many such cycles in the past?


#24

It seems we are in agreement on much of this then. I should clarify, in case you misunderstand - capitalism isn’t only the American economic system, it’s the economic system of many countries worldwide, and a part of the system of almost every country. So when people speak of capitalism they are not speaking about America specifically. But of that’s where your knowledge loes I can see why you would relate it specifically to America.

That’s a difficult question as it has so many layers to it. Firstly, I expect there are a multitude of views from people within it on varying aspects of conservatism. I would say it is a big aim of integral as a whole to be inclusive of orange and amber (the stages associated with conservatism).

If thinking of integral as a stage, Susanne Cook-Greuter says of the autononous (integral) stage, that it is the first at which people begin to integrate shadow, and that they are embracing of ‘like-principled others and broad range of human beings and their many ways’. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter%209%20levels%20paper%20new%201.1’14%2097p%5B1%5D.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiivMDOs7PxAhW1lFwKHXV-BaQQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw2z0GB2aqBusOhdJS7ToQ9o.

When people have shadow, that means they aren’t going to be inclusive of everybody as they will often shy away from people that trigger them, and also at the integral stage people just don’t have the empathy to be able to embrace everyone. I think, in a similar way to green, people can have too high expectations of the integral stage.

I would also say though that the integral community does do well at integrating orange and amber. It’s tricky because I feel like American amber in terms of the ‘its’ quadrant has a lot of values of orange? Perhaps because America was created 100s of years after the birth of capitalism. But there’s a distinction because amber would have these values mainly because they were what their society advocated, whereas orange would have these values primarily because the person wanted to understand, compete, and achieve. I would say that’s similar to how amber and orange now are in the UK. But hundreds of years ago amber here was very different.

I think in many societies orange and amber can often be confused - I think amber can be confused with many stages, because amber follows the rules of the society - it’s quite chameleon-like as a whole.

What do you think? Would you consider yourself a conservative and, if so, do you feel that your views are included?


#25

Hi @Julia248
Yes, my experience is decidedly American and perhaps tempered with several passports stamped full and much decades working globally.
I’ve gone through phases of looking to emigrate to Europe or Asia, and each time I do a Ben Franklin cost benefit analysis living in the USA looks like best option. Every place has benefits but all considered my assessment aligns with almost everyone on the planet regardless of race, gender, sexual preferences, religions or ethnicity that the US is overall best choice.

I see the rhetoric to “be inclusive” but have not seen any real focus on bringing along those at “lower tiers” even though there is considerable mental machination on how “those lower tiers” are “holding us back from Integral nirvana”. At least here on IL. I don’t see this so much with some of the Euro based groups but haven’t spent time.
Regarding “inclusion” IL is decidedly “lefty” and anti “righty”, again with much focus on how to neutralize “those that are holding us back”. Doesn’t seem inclusive. At least in the US, this ideological divisiveness will alienate “integral” from roughly half the population.
So far I haven’t seen anything compelling to consider recycling yet again Marxism as anything but a fantasy Noosphere for Integralists.
Don’t get me wrong, I enmeshed myself deeply in SciFi and “alternate noospheres” when younger, but as I get older (maturing?) I do look for “does that bs actually work?” Sadly collectivism / Marxism has a miserable track record.
Likewise I see little honoring, which would seem to be a high for of inclusion, the society, governmental structures, religions, and people’s that “have brought us to where we are”. There is even a significant blame game here on IL that “the world we have” is the impediment to overcome in order to implement collectivism/Marxism. This fundamentally seems a child’s argument akin to “you’re mean to me and keeping me from having ice cream for breakfast”, with no acknowledgement of who stocked the fridge, went to the store, or that development outside of my own bubble is likely progressing.
It’s as if I Woke up this morning in an imperfect world, it’s not my fault because havent done anything yet, and everyone that built my support system is holding back my fantastical dream noosphere.


#26

The USA will have to reconcile this schizophrenia before it can even think about leading an integral movement. It’s not that I’m a Europhile and everything out of Europe is great. I lived there for 10 years and know a lot of the good and the bad. But they do seem to be further along in the evolution of integrating Red, Orange and Green. It’s messy, but light years ahead the fanaticism of Green vs Amber in the USA with Orange being stressed to the limit to keep order between the two camps. The best a person can do in the USA is find a group or community that is Integral and work towards keeping the insanity of extreme right or left views out of that group.
To me, IL seems a bit too academic and theoretical. I don’t see much rubber meeting the road, so to speak. Reminds me a bit of a scene from Monty Python’s “Life of Brian”.
While in the movie, the scene is making fun of “Leftists”, I think it can be expanded to include any group that just keep on talking about changing things and then talking more.
To me, there comes a point when discussing the same things just gets ridiculous unless specific action is taken and concrete progress is made.


#27

Amen Brother! And at least for me I’m blessed to be enmeshed in communities that are from my personal experience and inside out view highly integral and inclusive. They’re actually “hidden in plain sight” and sadly the very same groups Integralists trot out as “archaic power structures that by very definition exhibit aperspectival madness”, are these very same groups that “get shit done in the real world”.

Here’s a funny analogy… I’ve had a horrible time getting a polyurethane finish on my new cherry butcher block desktop. I hired a friend to help me with some upgrades at the house and he was adamant how we should apply the polyurethane. After two days of “not glassy smooth”, I finally asked him about his actual experience. Turns out he was “winging it based on a couple youtube video’s that he enjoyed” but had no “rubber on the road” experience. I just shook my head and asked him “in the future please quality your experience between having master it in the real world or having smashed the like button on youtube from the clever vlogger.”

Thanks for resharing The Life of Brian clip :slight_smile: Amazing how apropros for today.