The decline of creativity in the music industry

What makes your interpretation more “appropriate” than mine? It’s a song that, if anything, has become known as fairly inappropriate when it comes to the whole concept of consent :slight_smile:

“Say what’s in this drink? No cabs to be had out there” — Yikes. Surely in the age of Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein, you can see why lyrics like that might make some people uncomfortable.

I don’t have a whole lot of emotional investment in the issue myself, but it turns out the song has always been controversial since it was first released. Turns out it made Amber folks very uncomfortable back in the day :wink:

My concern is with your harsh and seemingly arbitrary application of literal interpretation, which you know very well completely misses the essence of “Baby it’s Cold Outside”.

And I’m happy you’ve found “deeply spiritual” Hip Hop. I think you can find deeply spiritual anywhere you want to find it.

What percentage of Hip Hop would you consider as “deeply spiritual”?

McWorther and Peterson have some interesting thoughts on Music somewhat similar to your Complexity vs Familiarity paper. “All art aspires to the condition of music.” Music is immune to rational criticism.

Why do you keep putting “deeply spiritual” in scare quotes?

It is undeniably deep spiritual lyricism. Literally describing subtle, causal, and nondual states, as well as the effortless effort that arises from them.

What’s the percentage? Who knows, I have absolutely no way to make an assessment such as that. I’m guessing it would be a very similar percentage of the total population who is capable of having and describing the same sorts of state experiences. Low quantity, high quality. Massive depth, much less span. Exactly the dynamics I am exploring in my paragraphs above.

“your harsh and seemingly arbitrary application of literal interpretation,”

I mean, reading the lyrics, taking them at face value, and noticing how our moral standards have changed over time is hardly “arbitrary”. I wonder if you are holding hip hop songs to the same standard, looking past the surface features to find the inner spirit of the song?

This is exactly my point. You completely and seemingly intentionally dodged the essence of “Baby it’s cold outside” by choosing to apply your oft used Literal Analysis technique. Odd that you’re jiggy with intentionally misinterpreting a song but if it works for you, stick with it.

I listened to your first clip of Blackalicious and found it complex with multiple simultaneous hopper lines. Something that would require headphones and some concentration to look past the clearly ethnocentric surface of the band’s name.

I’ve never said Hip Hop is not nor cannot be deeply spiritual. It’s not a genre that calls to me, so that’s why I asked “how much of Hip Hop is deeply spiritual”?

But I am more intrigued simply because you’re very complimentary of it.

Do you think Hip Hop might perhaps be one of the more “rational” genres?

I mean, I would never, ever, ever say I was “jiggy” with anything, but whatever. :wink:

And again, I really don’t think I am “intentionally misinterpreting” anything — the song is plainly about a man “playfully” pressuring a woman into sex. Yes, it was playful — according to the standards of the time, which have since changed. Maybe the idea that those standards have changed makes you uncomfortable, but change they have. And really, even by the standards of the time, it was already controversial, as mentioned in the article above. Turns out it was making the Amber fuddy-duddies furrow their eyebrows back then, just as much as it is for woke fuddy-duddies today.

Again, I am not nearly as emotionally invested in that song as you seem to be, so you do you. But if a woman says “that song is actually kinda fucked up,” I’d be prone to agree :slight_smile:

I mean, it’s just as ethnocentric as me going to the Polish Falcons of America with my family back in the day. In other words, it’s not ethnocentric in a bigoted sense, but rather an expression of a particular process of identity formation. Simply stating one’s ethnicity is not itself “ethnocentric” in a derogatory sense (though we could say it’s “ethnocentric” in a neutral sense, describing that overall sequence of ego-centric -> ethnocentric -> worldcentric.) Would it be as off-putting if they were called “Germanlicious”?

“Do you think Hip Hop might perhaps be one of the more “rational” genres?”

Again, I don’t think many genres can be pegged to a particular stage of development, in terms of content.

However, I do think that different stages of development can produce new genres. The orange industrial stage produced electric guitars. But that doesn’t make Rock music an “orange genre.” Hip hop was born on the one hand from repurposing record players as musical instruments and using samples in order to create a sonic pastiche, mosaic, or collage — and on the other hand from the god-given voice that all human beings are born with. The former is a somewhat postmodern use of a listening device as sort of meta-instrument, while the latter could even be described as a modern universal synthesis of voice, rhythm, and poetry. I could also describe hip hop as a whole as being somewhat “proto-integral” in that it tries to pull together and synthesize multiple genres, and became one of the world’s first multi-genre or even trans-genre musical cultures (we now see hip hop on every continent, performed by every imaginable ethnic and cultural combination, from India to Japan to Pakistan to Argentina to Libya and beyond).

Blackalicious is actually a perfect artist to explore this with. Their album, Nia, is one of my all-time favorite albums from any genre. A real desert-island album for me. And what I particularly love about it, is that the themes shift seamlessly from ego-centric (“battle lyrics”) to ethnocentric (a form of healthy afro-centrism) to worldcentric (universal love + social and systemic issues) to kosmocentric (describing and transmitting 1st-person states of spiritual experience).

And all of this is woven together on a single album, which I find absolutely extraordinary. Some parts are for me, some parts are not for me, some parts are for everybody, and some parts get us out of the whole identity game altogether. That’s about as “integral” as it gets, I think — not just honing in on a particular wavelength, but including the full spectrum of our incarnation. Such a perfect, wise, and incredibly fun album, beginning to end.

And all these multiple stages are bookended by the following pieces of mystical poetry, a gorgeous integration of masculine and feminine, as if the songs are self-emerging and self-liberating across the empty expanse of witness consciousness:

Searching

Finding

All of which is to say, no, I wouldn’t describe hip hop as itself being a “rational” genre, because right from its inception in New York in the late 1970s it has been populated with egocentric, ethnocentric, and worldcentric content. Which is why I simultaneously do consider it to be a “universal donor” kind of art form, one that can be participated in by anyone, regardless of their kosmic address, and one that relentlessly seeks to integrate just about every musical influence it can find.

If I’m reading you correctly, you’re applying your moral values in this moment very literally to a song written in the 40’s. You then equate playful banter to Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein drugging their rape victims. Wow Corey, you’re one harsh judgemental dude.

Ah, but wait, I just found your #MeToo controversy sources Noosphere Bruhaha. So this is akin to your walk through Conservatives to Christianity to Amber Literal Mythic into softly defined Ethnocentricity into (lower case) white nationalists into racists into Qanon into Nazi’s. Did I miss any steps along the way?

Interesting modus operandi. Seems like a bit of “bad faith” dialog Corey.

And speaking personally, my own relationship with hip hop has been deeply integrative.

One of my major artistic vehicles of self-expression in my life was when I decided to purchase a couple turntables and a mixer back in the early 00’s, as my obsessive love of music hit a sort of tipping point. I found myself spending all my spare time making mix tapes for people — so carefully curated, almost making new “concept albums” from my vast music library, trying to integrate the songs I loved so much into some kind of larger whole.

And it got to the point where I was so fixated on curating these mixes, and then giving the tapes to other people, I finally said to myself, “why don’t I do this in real time?” It hit me like a revelation, and I went out the next day to purchase my first turntable.

So for me, becoming a “trans-genre hip hop dj” was a way to use this instrument — two turntables and a mixer — as a sort of crucible, a melting pot where I could bring all my disparate tastes together, and try to create some more joy in people’s lives. (Also so I could go to parties and have fun without ever needing to actually talk to anybody.) And hip hop was basically the overarching musical idiom I used to mix anything and everything I want together, from rap to rock to new wave to electronic, downtempo, swing, etc. It’s a genre that transcends genre, if you want it to, and that’s one of the major reasons I fell in love with it.

What’s “bad faith”, I think, is you fixating on this point, arguing straw men, and ignoring the vast majority of everything else I am communicating to you. It’s why I said I feel like you are often looking for excuses to disagree with me.

Yes, I am applying today’s morals to yesterday’s art. I described it as a regressive/transgressive song, by today’s standards. I repeatedly said it’s an opportunity to observe our changing moral codes, which is why I said “in the age of Cosby and Weinstein”, while pointing to a line that literally says “what’s in my drink?”. And I even pointed out that the song was even controversial back then in the 1940s, by the same Amber crowd that likes classic songs like Silent Night (which I find to be the most beautiful of the carols).

Because we are talking about how music gets selected for by culture. When it gets selected for long enough — and continues to be inoffensive to the prevailing moral sentiments of the time — it becomes a cliche, like Silent Night or Jingle Bells, for example. But if it has content that becomes offensive — or in this case, a song that was already a bit provocative when it was originally released — that song no longer gets selected for by culture. Just like Disney’s Song of the South, or any number of other art works. This is the entire point I’ve been trying to make.

In 1963, the Beatles sang “she’s just seventeen, if you know what I mean”. It was seen as provocative, but not really transgressive. McCartney was only 20 or 21 years old when he wrote it, after all.

In 1988, Winger sang “She’s only seventeen”. By that point, it already started to feel kinda icky. But culture still allowed it, and even today it’s still seen as a glam-rock staple.

Today, people see both lyrics as transgressive and kinda gross. And for good reason — our moral standards have changed. I for one think that’s a good thing. Does that mean I won’t listen to “I Saw Her Standing There” when I play the first Beatles record? Nope, it’s still a great song. But I can definitely notice the shifting standards of culture since it was first released, and how that influences the way we enact the song today. One of the reasons that art is never inert, but forever alive, and often gets reenacted very differently from generation to generation, while giving us insight into the interiors of previous generations.

I also still listen to Michael Jackson, by the way. I can’t watch Kevin Spacey movies though, the ick factor is simply too high. Which is an interesting conversation in itself — why we hold artists to different moral standards, depending on the kind of art they make. I think we are most judgmental of actors, because it’s harder to separate their person from their on-screen persona.

So, yeah. The song you seem so insistent on defending no longer fits the moral standards of a culture that has chosen to emphasize consent in sexual relationships, and no longer thinks that trying to pressure a woman to have sex with him is appropriate or “playful”. Which I think is probably a very good thing. Does it go too far? Absolutely it does, and I’ve talked about that many times. But our morality does indeed change over time, and what was once conventional or even progressive, eventually becomes regressive, and that’s not always a bad thing.

But I think you know that’s the point I’ve been trying to make this entire time.

In the end, it’s just a silly, trivial song that I’ve always found obnoxious. Not sure how you got so worked up about it. As you say:

“We could look at our music selection process as a normalization of culture, which isnt always negative.”

It’s so odd to me that you would write a paragraph like that, and then accuse me of bad faith in your next breath.

Let’s actually take a look at the bad faith frame you offered, which promoted this entire discussion.

“Christmas caroling in the neighborhood with a rendition of Silent Night provides something entirely different than a new Rap song on getting revenge against a rival gang for injustices.
Of these two songs, clearly Silent Night would be Conservative with the Rap song as Progessive.”

So “clearly” what you describe as “conservative music” like Christmas carols are, by definition, pure and spiritual. While what you describe as “progressive” music like rap music is by definition coarse and violent. Nice framing there.

By the way, Ted Nugent sang this:

“Well, I don’t care if you’re just thirteen
You look too good to be true
I just know that you’re probably clean
There’s one little thing I got do to you”

That is clearly “conservative music”, right? Or am I trying to cherry pick the worst possible example of “conservative music”, which I will then compare to, I don’t know, let’s say “All You Need Is Love” by The Beatles, in order to make it sound like I’ve scored a political point? Let’s give it a try.

Of these two songs, clearly Jailbait by Ted Nugent would be conservative, with the Beatles song as Progressive.

Ah, I can see why you used this tactic :wink:

And then I pointed out, “well there are some fucked up ‘conservative’ carols that are regressive by today’s standards, and some deeply spiritual ‘progressive’ hip hop on the other side”.

This point seemed to annoy you. You became hyper defensive of a cringey Christmas carol from the 1940s, and dismissive of the idea that a music like hip hop could be seen as spiritual. How can I tell you were being dismissive? You said it right in this sentence:

“Meanwhile claiming that some HipHop is 'deeply spiritual”, I’m sure is technically correct in that there is some HipHop that transforms lives.”

Can you see the dismissal? “I’m sure is technically correct”, within your own purposely narrowed definition of the word.

So, to summarize, in this thread about music, you:

a) decided to twist it into a partisan left vs. right conversation,

b) got weirdly defensive and fixated on a trivial Christmas carol, resulting in numerous accusations about my interiors and my motives,

c) ignored the multiple other paragraphs I spent time writing, in good faith, in order to better communicate my views and enactment of art,

d) tried to engage in silly win-lose debate with me at every step.

And then, after all that, you accused me of bad faith.

Again, I ask you, are you capable of having a conversation without twisting it into a narrow ideological debate? Can you tolerate people disagreeing with you without resorting to unfounded accusations about their interiors? Can you engage in healthy discourse with others in this community, or are you committed only to win-lose debate in order to let people know how wrong you think they are?

Corey, you realize this all started as a very simple statement that “common music brings people together” with my reference to Silent Night. And a mention that Rap is Red altitude expression.
All I was pointing out is that, as an example, Christmas Carolling BRINGS COMMUNITIES TOGETHER. And that propagating Red Expressions is likely divisive.

But here’s the concern.

You shifted my frame from, as you stated, one of the most beautiful songs (Silent Night) to your Woke/#metoo example of “Baby it’s cold outside”.
You also looked to shift Rap to highly spiritual Hip-hop examples.

I did a very non scientific survey on YouTube Top 50 Hip-hop songs and read the lyrics where available for the first 10.
Lots of ethnocentric language, lots of Red situations, basically gang stuff music. Even Blackalicious would be hard to see as having a “spiritual Cosmic Address”.

Dude, I never said what you’re working on isn’t Innovative, or that there aren’t people “left out”.
But is that any different today than when I was playing gigs for $40 and contemplating a musical career looking at a substance living?
There are Millions of musicians that are good, not great. Good makes $40/gig, Mariah Carey with her 7 octave rang makes $1M/gig.

What I can say is that as a listener, I have a shocking array of music to listen. From Mongolian throat chanting to Italian operas to industrial to ancient Roman songs sung in native Latin to Finlandish folk music. Whatever you want is there!
And ANYONE can publish and monetize to the entire world, and just maybe make it big.
Thanks for the topic. I just stumbled across this. Different genre that Hip-hop, but wow amazing.

Wow…

I had simply noticed your conservative vs. progressive framing, which you arbitrarily introduced into the discussion, and tried to escape that frame by pointing out that there is “conservative” music that can be coarse, and “progressive” music that can be soulful/spiritual as your silent night example.

Neither of which I would actually frame as being “conservative” or “liberal”, by the way. There are an enormous amount of people on the left who are a) religious/Christian, b) at the amber stage and later, c) deeply moved by songs like Silent Night. And if we want to be super accurate, the sorts of rap lyrics you describe would actually be pre-modern in nature, and therefore pre-partisan. So I wanted to make it clear that those sorts of lyrics absolutely do not define hip hop as a genre, especially since, as you said, hip hop is a genre you never really connected with, and therefore had little familiarity with. I know there are a lot of “conservative” stereotypes about rap/hip hop, just like there are a lot of “progressive” stereotypes about, say, country music. And just like any other genre, both of those have a lot of terrible shit in them, but also plenty of diamonds.

Which is exactly why I spent so much time enthusiastically writing about one of my own favorite hip artists, by the way! I wanted to show you a side of hip hop you may not have experienced before, and see how elevated the art can be.

I also HIGHLY recommend you check out Endtroducing by DJ Shadow. It’s an all-instrumental album, and another of my all-time favorite albums. It was a real taste-maker for me, the album that first made me “understand” hip hop when it came out way back in 1996. Which is interesting, because there’s no actual rapping on the album (you may already know this, but “rap” and “hip hop” actually mean somewhat different things.)

So all I did was mention Baby It’s Cold Outside as an obvious example of a Christmas carol that many find to be coarse. I mentioned it, and Blackalicious, because it felt to like your conservative/progressive frame was purposely skewed and unfair. And then it appeared to be the only thing you wanted to talk about was BICO, and every comment of yours from that point was an effort to disparage my worldview because I was critical of that song.

And here’s the funny thing — I think that song is in some ways the 1940s equivalent of the Top 50 hip hop songs on YouTube! Those rappers would say they are also being “playful” in their lyrics about getting laid. They are just allowed to use much more colorful language to get the point across, due to shifting cultural permissions over time :wink:

As for the YouTube Top 50, that is basically making my original point for me. Due to all the technological, electronic, cultural, and creative pressures I described, we now have a music industry that creates far more incentive for “lowest common denominator” art. And that lowest common denominator is usually going to select for our lowest stages and drives — sex and violence, in this case — because 100% of us have those drives within us.

And gangsta rap is an interesting subgenre. Here’s the story as I see it:

In the beginning, it was basically a 1st-person documentary of what it’s like to grow up in a ghetto. There was an immediacy and authenticity to it — it wasn’t celebrating violence as much as simply describing violence first-hand from the 1st-person, as well as the ways the artist had to adapt to and even perpetuate that violence in order to survive. There was almost a desperation in many of those lyrics, and a resentment that they could see no way to transform their environment, or to escape it. Hell, that was often the primary reason they were making the music in the first place — to be successful enough to escape their environment. It was music being made by some of the most economically challenged people in the country, describing the many social evils associated with poverty and the lowest rungs of the needs hierarchy, wherever we find it.

But then after a few years, a funny thing happened. Dr. Dre released The Chronic, and on that album mainstream America was introduced to Snoop Dogg. And white people flipped their shit :slight_smile: Suddenly white people were increasingly becoming a primary audience for gangsta rap. Which, in turn, made the artists flip their shit. For some of them, their own ethnocentricity made them resentful, and they wanted to make music by black people, for black people. For others, they were suddenly making millions out of nowhere, and becoming household names. So they kept giving their audience what they wanted — the lyrics and narratives started to become more exaggerated, until the music almost became a caricature of black culture, produced for white audiences. At worst, it became almost something like black artists wearing blackface for white audiences.

For awhile, gangsta rap dominated the hip hop mainstream. What is kinda funny here, though, is that it was bookended by two other subgeneres. Before gangsta rap, from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, the hip hop mainstream was going through what is now known as the genre’s “golden age”, with artists like Tribe Called Quest, Arrested Development, De La Soul, and many, many others. These artists tended to be very jazz-influenced, and had a major emphasis on positive Afro-centric identities and themes. Positive “ethnocentric” stuff — let’s support each other, support and improve our communities, improve ourselves as human beings, facing challenges out there by becoming better people in here, etc.

And then, on the other side of gangsta rap, from the late 90s to the mid-00’s, we had the next major phase — what’s now sometimes known as “conscious hip hop”, or sometimes called “backpacker” hip hop, based on the fashion styles of the predominantly-hipster audience who loved collecting underground hip hop albums in their backpacks. These artists themselves often came out of the afro-centric “golden age” era (see: Blackalicious), and many of their lyrics were actively pushing against the violent themes of gangsta rap (listen to Shallow Days in the videos I posted above, which both directly criticizes gangsta culture and reminisces about the now-faded golden age era). However, while these artists embraced their afro-centric (ethnocentric) roots, they also fully embraced their white audiences, and began to deliver more socially conscious, worldcentric, and even kosmocentric (in some rare cases) lyricism. Their audiences rewarded them not for appealing to the lowest common denominator, but to our higher nature.

So it’s interesting to me, that we saw a shift from healthy ethnocentric “golden age” era, to egocentric “gangsta rap” era, to worldcentric “conscious hip hop” era.

However, over the last two decades, we haven’t really seen these sorts of “eras” emerging and passing. Which, again, I think is due to the many pressures I described in my original posts above — but mostly a) changing means of distribution, which b) diminishes the local-to-global creative flow generated by various regional scenes, and c) the shifting financial incentives away from “album” and toward “single”.

Anyway, I find all this endlessly fascinating, and love how hip hop gives us something like a cultural archeology to help us better understand where we as a people have been, where we are, and where we’re going.

I really love this video, absolutely fascinating. It’s like watching the soul of global culture unfolding over time.

Most popular genres over time, in terms of global sales:

Some of this was surprising to me, until I realized it was global sales, not just American (which is why “house” music was so dominant from the 90s into the 00s, whereas it made a significantly smaller impact here in America).

But I loved watching the oscillations of the global mainstream, often shifting back and forth between predominantly white-produced genres, and predominantly black-produced genres. Watching it shift from country, to jazz, back to country, to R&B, to Rock and Roll to Soul was absolutely fascinating to watch.

And again, particularly fascinating considering that these are reflecting global sales. The black-produced genres of music were being produced by African Americans who at this time only represented 9-11% of the American population, and yet they had such a massive impact on global culture. Even Rock and Roll grew directly out of R&B before it.

And of course, hip hop is just a continuation of that story – it’s just rock and roll put on its side, after all. Rock and roll moves side by side, hip hop moves up and down. Same basic musical structure, 4/4 timing, verse chorus verse, etc., with an emphasis on rhythm instead of on melody (but obviously including both).

Well, opinions vary. Hard to dissect music. To me Rock was. Americans are great but the bards are english. We keep The Doors and Pink Floyd, as an example of each, but we all and always bow to the Beatles, and Soul is now in deep eletronic, truly the first world music. Do not forget Billie Elish and above all, if you are into beauty, try Ludovico Einaudi’s ‘Seven Days Walking’

Yes, beautiful. I did have to point the VPN to UK to play :slight_smile:

I think the Good, the True, and the Beautiful are different than Corey’s thread here on “decline of creativity”. I think Corey’s really focused more on adoption and monetization in the industry, specifically on Hip Hop, as opposed to lack of creativity in musical artistry itself. But of course might be off here.

Samuel Andreyev might bridge some classical and creative. Worth a go. His analyses and interviews are also very enlightening.

Hey Luis, I agree that there is still a ton of beautiful art being made. I really enjoy Billie Eilish, and I will check out Seven Days Walking!

That’s a decent summary, yeah, though certainly not limited to hip hop.

I was being a bit provocative with my title, but I’m basically talking about the diminished impact and value our creativity has in the LL mainstream culture, and how the music industry in the LR has restructured itself in ways that often perpetuates an overall “cheapening” of mainstream music culture. And then, of course, how that in turn influences our own appreciation and experience of music in the UL.

If anything, I think we are probably a more creative species today than ever before, both in terms of depth and span. There are likely hundreds if not thousands of musical geniuses on SoundCloud, with only a few hundred listens. The issue, I think, is that creativity is now being channeled and distributed through a social network that rewards “span” over “depth”, which incentivizes the music industry to push lowest-common-denominator products.

But really, I started this thread just as an opportunity to talk about music, which I greatly enjoy doing :slight_smile:

@corey-devos Speaking of span, how about some commentary on the Super Bowl Half-time Show? For educational purposes.

@luis_costa I did check out some of “Seven Days Walking.” I like piano pieces, so this was nice; particularly “The Path of the Fossils.” Thanks! I’m sure I’ll listen to the whole thing soon.

@FermentedAgave Some unusual sounds in the Andreyev piece, like it could be the score/soundtrack for a Dracula-type silent movie!

I didn’t watch this when it was on, just watched for the first time :slight_smile:

Holy shit that was a flawless performance, technically speaking. Unbelievable production, everything was mixed so well, everyone sounded great. Was awesome to see all these old schoolers (plus Kendrick) on stage together.

Blow by blow:

  • The Chronic really was an incredible album, just dripping with style. That goes both for Dre’s production, and of course for Snoop, who I think remains one of the smoothest, most talented rappers, with very little to say. A dramatic imbalance of style and substance :wink:

  • 50 Cent looking like a house, good god. He comes from one of the eras of hip hop I was always least interested in – sort of this ghetto-glam late 90s period period that I associate with 50, Puff Daddy, and others. Kinda like a hip hop disco period. But that song was a banger on the dance floor, no denying that.

  • Mary J Blige — damn, she’s still got it. She really descends from that pre-gangsta “golden age” period, which is why she’s often so uplifting.

  • And then Kendrick comes out. In terms of pure depth and substance, this guy blows everyone else off the stage. Kendrick is the real deal, a once in a generation artist. It’s a bit odd seeing him grouped with the rest, as everything else is really a tribute to the mid-to-late nineties, but I’m here for it.

  • And then Eminem, another genuine virtuoso. He’s one of those artists who transformed the genre. He, along with the Beastie Boys 10 years before him, helped prove hip hop to be a genuine post-racial artform, one that can simultaneously include its afrocentric (and sometimes egocentric!) roots, while also making space to transcend those roots.

All together, a dope performance.

One thing I did think was missing — which I think is one of the things that made me so disinterested in some of these subgenres back in the day — was an emphasis on the DJ.

I notice that most of the hip hop artists I love the most emphasize the DJ. Turntables and mixers sit at the very center of hip hop’s emergence (which is itself due to a number of interesting socioeconomic factors I won’t get into right now, but begin with a 1977 power outage in New York City).

And then, as hip hop began to really break into the mainstream in the 1990s, the emphasis shifted away from the DJ (also for socioeconomic reasons, which can be summarized as “it’s cheaper to pay one person than two”.) But plenty of DJ-backed artists still remained in the underground, until that scene emerged into prominence in the 99-mid 00’s (though without nearly the span as the mainstream hip hop at the time, with some exceptions). At which point, the lineage of the largely afro-centric “golden age” era evolved into a worldcentric “conscious hip hop” era.

And DJ’s had quite a moment back then of their own, particularly scratch DJs, which influenced me in a huge way back when I got my first two turntables back in the day. This is my favorite documentary on the scene, highly recommended. I wish I could find a higher quality, I will replace this link if I do.

Thanks! I haven’t watched the documentary yet, but want to and here are a few comments. I basically saw this as paying homage to the hip hop and rap veterans, so to speak, in the first half-time show fully dedicated to the genre, with Lamar being a nod to the future, perhaps. At the beginning, wasn’t Dre at a mixer? or a faux mixer, but yes, no nod to the DJ. And I wonder if that isn’t in line with the point you were making in previous posts, that there is little or no bottom-up movement in music, so naturally, seems like aspects of “roots” being lost or ignored or given less significance.

I think Snoop Dogg is magnetic in the sense that he has flow and ease, or smoothness as you say, even if he’s mostly small-talk. He sort of undulates across the stage, like a slithering snake, which is fascinating to watch.

Is “ghetto-glam” the same as “bling hip hop”? (Learning my terms :slightly_smiling_face:)

Also, is the “uh” and “huh” and “uh huh” in rap kind of similar to the “millennial whoop”? Used for different reasons, of course, but still a repetitive thing song to song? Maybe overused?

While there was plenty of dance in the performance, I didn’t see anything particularly stand-out, and that to me was something missing. But I suppose they didn’t want to distract too much from the musical performances.

I don’t watch football, but I do like the Super Bowl entertainment spectacles, and this one was not disappointing. Add to that a little context of the NFL’s history with these half-time shows and the current affairs around race issues in the NFL, and that’s another layer of cultural interest.

Appreciate your comments and perspectives, very much!