Wang Huning: The World’s Most Influential Intellectual?


You asked “Wonder why the surge?”

Simply by asking the question “why has there been an increase of migrants”, you are “going meta”.

I told you the reasons why so many people are migrating to the U.S. If you are genuinely interested in trying to solve that problem, at least trying to understand these systemic factors is a pretty good place to start.

People make choices based on conditions. Want to understand the choice? Then understand the conditions. Want people to make different choices? Then change the conditions.

I assume you were asking in good faith?

One way I like to think about it — certain stages of development are capable of creating particular technologies, but once created, those technologies can then be used by any stage.

The electric guitar could only have come from an orange industrialized society. But does that mean that all music that uses an electric guitar is orange? Of course not.

Just wanted to interject something on the lighter side… Just one of the many things I enjoy and deeply appreciate brought to us by Orange technology despite my disgust of it’s unhealthy side!


Same brother!


That’s an American Fender Stratocaster for those that are curious.

Let’s start a band and name it “Nexus Agency”.

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Yes!! :guitar::musical_note::notes:

You’re a true Renaissance Man, Brother!!

Since I’ve always been the Lead Guitar player in bands I’ve played in does that make me the “Dominate Monad?” :wink:

By the way, let’s take this conversation over to the Immigration thread. I allowed you to disrupt this thread and bend it into your hypothetical future impeachment of President Biden and criticisms of his immigration policy. I should have caught this sooner and redirected my own responses to the Immigration thread.

No no no, you have to save “Dominant Monad” for the title of your first solo album after Nexus Agency inevitably breaks up.

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Yeah, but also that goes pretty deep - the whole controversy of Rock and Roll then Heavy Metal in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s and all the subgenres produced. Just off the top of my head, Metallica’s image and riffs appealing to aggressive young men but the lyrics delivering a antiwar messages.

On the topic of Wang Huning - I don’t think he understands the intelligence of this kind of thing, or the long term benefits. He would surely encourage all rock and roll bands be sent to re-education camps.

I think China (and Russia) will beat the USA at the economic, military and strategic “Game” so long as we are playing by those measures of success. I think music is one of the biggest contributors to learning how to think “outside the box” and create new ways of looking at the same thing. I mean, there’s only 6 strings, so if I never heard a guitar I’d think it was a pretty limited instrument because a Piano has more keys, for example. But the reality is those 6 strings have almost infinite potential to a creative mind.

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I totally agree, Ray! It’s tragic that so many public schools cut their music programs over the years. Definitely helps develop critical thinking.

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This is one of my favorite examples when trying to apply integral to music — that heavy metal has a reputation for being “red” music, when many/most metal thrash musicians were giving voice to orange existential fears during the Cold War. That’s why heavy metal went to shit after the Berlin Wall came down.

It’s always seemed to me that while we can use something like the color stages of integral theory to describe the lyrical content of the song, it’s much harder to categorize the whole thing, particularly the instrumentation. Something like the chakra system feels more appropriate — for example, Metallica was often delivering orange lyrical content via third-chakra musical aggression.

We can also look to the stages of social holons that produce the instruments in the first place — rock and roll evolved from electric guitars (an “orange” instrument), hip hop evolved from turntables (a postmodern use of playback equipment used as an instrument), and electronic music evolved from computers (a late-green, early-teal technology). But of course, none of these genres are tethered to any particular stage — hip hop can go from crimson to turquoise, in terms of its lyrical content. But it adds another layer to the discussion for sure.

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Also what I see as clever is something done in Hypnosis, where the most obvious “in your face” component is just the vehicle for delivery of a more subtle influence, which I would say influences the subconscious on a much deeper level. So the most obvious instrumentation or voice can be based in one “color” (integral or chakra), but then the other is based in another. Again, Metallica’s lead singer’s voice is extremely strong and moves all the way from “Solar plexus” to “heart” to “throat” to “third eye” (as in Nothing Else Matters), while the guitar classic riff of that song also starts in a steady rythm in bass, but then irregularly plays higher notes and then (I think) matches the voice back in heart / throat. And I’m not skilled enough to give a beat by beat analysis, though. I love attempting to sing it, but I’m a baritone so there’s no way I hit the high notes, lol.

This is different from lets say Guns and Roses or AC/DC where the vocalists are almost exclusively in the throat, and maybe going out on a limb here, but also the guitar solos are mostly what people think of when they think heavy metal (higher pitched riffs)

I think this kind of matching or dissonance between the lead vocalists and the lead instrumentals is what gives each band it’s unique voice.

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“Modern conflicts: battle between power and imagination” (with a few words on China too)

I like the opening you created. I see that our term modern or orange actually hasn’t happened yet. Rob likes to just stay from an internal view. From a capacity view. But when we look at what constitutes orange. Like, all human beings have rights inherently. We see in our systems are a hybrid of technological evolution and amber power structures. Doesn’t mean people don’t keep developing. Just that the systems we interact with aren’t protecting the human natural dominion but extraction from humanity. So not modern at all in the externals. It’s a conformist cluster fuck. Modern demands transparency. We could do that now, if we can start to see the false modern assumption. I think those who use this language(modern , Orange)are trying to show, is a time sequence, but getting there understanding of phases off terribly. A hubristic fragile stance at this point. Confusing internals for externals. We are amazing sheep.

Yeah, I’m not sure myself how to define where humanity as a whole is at when the great majority of the masses are in a different place (survival paycheck to paycheck) than the economic elite (Amber), who are in a different place than the political elite (hard to place because they are so fake), and then the educational elite (green). But also what we see is so many people are “faking it”, or just understand a dumbed down concept of what each level is. “Consciousness” is a perfect example, which has ironically become a consumer product so we have millions of people thinking they will be more “conscious” because they take Yoga courses from a person who did bridge pose on a beach and took a picture with an expensive lens (see below). Daily I interact with people (friends) who believe they are far more conscious than they are. Thank you COVID, for bringing that out to the surface, lol.

Now part of the mandatory social interaction is this little microculture is enduring a 10 minute or more monologue by people who “know the facts because they researched the science”. And this in communities who believe themselves to be “conscious”. Worse than this are people are following some kind of manipulative “red pill” programming, but are so filled with anger and frankly hate towards external groups that it’s obvious they are nowhere near “red pilled”, but are just manipulated at a different level, but more completely because they are absolutely oblivious to it.

Then if we go even earlier, we have the fact that the whole idea of the west following the teachings of Christ for 2,000 years is absolute bollocks, lol. The vast bulk of humanity never actually “got” what Christ taught 2,000 years ago, much less Buddha. So if just one or two guys lived a concept, does that mean the whole of humanity is “at that level”? I don’t think so.

Similar to the “founding fathers” of the United States - they wrote a few documents that even today people don’t understand “All men are created equal”. (Yes, they left out women). But regardless, they did not say “All Americans are equally exceptional and superior to the rest of the planet”, which has been the mythology of the United States for the past 250 years - so the vast bulk of Americans don’t actually comprehend what the founding fathers wrote on paper, much less what they were all about.


After I wrote the comment above and I read your comment, I realized that technologies are artifacts in the LR Quadrant and can’t actually be described in terms of vertical structural development stages like amber, orange or green etc. that apply only to individual holons. They can be used by individual and social holons according to their developmental level. Thus refering to any information technology as “green” or whatever is just sloppy thinking. What could be said about any technology is that it is being used by individual holons based on their level of structural development. As for social holons only the level of their predominant level of mutual resonance determines how they use technologies. And as far as China and their use of modern information technologies is concerned, this is clearly determined by an amber level of mutual resonance.

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It’s a little bit tricky — artifacts can be “infused” or “imprinted” with the creator’s Zone-2 stages, shadows, etc., as well as with various pressures from multiple other zones, which can then shape how that artifact functions once it is released into the world.

I’m thinking, for example, of a single part of a rocket engine. It is an artifact created by a particular stage of consciousness (let’s say Orange), designed to be used in an incredibly complex system of other parts – a system that can itself only be understood by the same stage of consciousness that produced it (or higher). So this artifact only finds its utility when enacted by Orange, and is essentially useless when enacted for other purposes. It has no “fit” outside of an Orange context of astronautical engineering. Sure, a person at, say, Amber can find the engine part on the street and use it as a flower vase, but at that point the person has totally changed the fundamental utility of the artifact. It’s no longer an engine part, it’s a vase.

Or think of a piece of literature — let’s say Beowulf. Here is an artifact that has been produced by a particular stage of consciousness within a particular culture at a particular point in history, and imprinted with particular stages across multiple zones. This artifact has a kosmic address, part of which are the stages of development that produced it, and which can then be enacted by other later stages of development.

Ken also likes to give the example of an artificial intelligence algorithm, which is going to be imprinted with the intentions, behaviors, etc. of its creator. What is the algorithm designed to do? Is it trying to infect computers and install crypto mining malware? Then that is an algorithm that has likely been imprinted by a lower stage of development.

The same is true of something like Facebook, I think, which is also designed according to the conscious or unconscious assumptions and intentions of its creator(s), and therefore behaves according to those assumptions and intentions — which I think we could probably describe as a combination of flat green social engineering, and predatory red/orange profit motives.

Thanks, Corey, for clarifying the issue I raised, by pointing out that artifacts “can be infused or imprinted with the creator’s Zone-2 stages, shadows etc., as well as with various pressures from multiple other zones, which can then shape how that artifact functions once it is released into the world.” And that an “artifact has a kosmic address, part of which are the stages of development that produced it, and which can then be enacted by other later stages of development.” This makes a lot of sense and sounds more “in tune” with the AQAL-integral framework, than simply assigning Zone-2 stages to technologies.