One thing I find interesting is the massive time-shift swings when comparing “those people” and “those groups” with an immediate (relatively) pop culture hypothesis. Ken talked to something similar in his Gun discussions - perhaps we are bumping up against the max state. Or perhaps we actually don’t know where “those people” really are without checking in with them. Isn’t this the classic psychosis that every Altitude runs into? Perhaps I’m off?
Case in point, the speaker on What’s Wrong with Policing has literally built his career on “What’s Wrong with Policing”. We might have a more productive discourse if rather than “talking about” we “talked with”. I think Integral Life might find that, as examples, police departments, Catholic Church, and the multitude of “those other groups” might have a much much more diverse population that could perhaps be empowered by the discourse. As we know, the
You’re living in the Belly of the Beast so to speak with: “Unfortunately, we have the issue of the established culture that is deeply ingrained and influenced by less developed levels of mind. That’s going to be where the push-back comes from and will end up being the biggest challenge. I’ve watched these dynamics go on here in Seattle since the WTO protests in 2000.”
I think worth mentioning that there may be structures/people in influential positions that utilize the Reds/Ambers as Allies to attack Oranges and simply anyone that gets in their way. We see this everywhere around the globe as well as throughout history.
One thing I find interesting about these discussions is that there is often an assumption by many that critics of the police are viewing things from the outside.
I really do challenge this assumption. It’s a very limited point of view that only someone within a tribe can solve the problems of that tribe. On the contrary, I’d say “A problem can rarely be solved by the same mindset that created the problem.”
Related to this is the belief that the Police have the capability to find these answers from within their own ranks, and that people who are not within the ranks of police are not able to find answers and will create conflict and distrust.
At the point we are now in Policing America, the Police in most cities are not able to Police themselves without some kind of external pressure to do so. Plumbers and electricians need a code that they have to follow or have their license revoked or fines imposed by an external licensing body, so too do the police need an external body monitoring them and implementing disciplinary measures to violators. Whether this external body is the court system or an administrative system, it cannot be under the same umbrella as the Chief of Police in that city.
I agree with Mark in the discussion when he says that the Police rank and file have to be Amber to keep a check on red - but they need Orange to keep them in check.
In the Military this is done through an enlisted corps and an officer corps, and it’s very effective almost to the point of being the most efficient organization we know in dealing with Red. There are many Hollywood movies that accurately display this conflict between the Amber enlisted man who goes into red as part of his job description, and the officer corps that is expected to maintain Orange ideals. “A Few Good Men” comes to mind most clearly where the protagonist is fighting for Orange ideals in an organization with an Amber / Red mission.
In the military this line is very clearly defined and lived day to day. Military Officers don’t fraternize with enlisted, and have a much stricter code of conduct than Enlisted do. Most of the Officer Corps has never been enlisted.
While Police do have ranks, there isn’t nearly the same separation within the organization as in the Military, and usually the Police Lieutenants are trained by the rank and file first alongside all the other Police recruits, not separately as Military Officers are. As a result, Police supervisors are trained to be more Amber first and foremost while Military Officers are trained to be more Orange in separate training than the rank and file.
Note the rank and file in the Military often resent this - which is why it is not up to them, lol. The Orange Officer Corps establishes the policy and the Amber enlisted Corps follows that policy.
The reality is that almost all crime statistics have been dropping year over year. Manhattan Institute article quote: " As of the June 22 update, the Washington Post’s database [of fatal police shootings] showed 14 unarmed Black victims and 25 unarmed white victims in 2019. The database does not include those killed by other means, like George Floyd.
The number of unarmed Black shooting victims is down 63% from 2015, when the database began. There are about 7,300 Black homicide victims a year. The 14 unarmed victims in fatal police shootings would comprise only 0.2% of that total."
What if the hypothesis “What’s Wrong with Policing in America?” is actually not so relevant as the media, a group of Orange manipulators and their Red/Amber followers have us to believe?
“Policing is an issue” sells sells sells (amygdala hijack successful) but should we perhaps start with issues much larger than this 0.2% “issue”? What might these issues be?
I would call this hypothesis absurd - because it compares the terrible to the slightly less terrible and follows up with a “Red Herring” fallacy - “media, a group of Orange manipulators”, followed by a statistic to present a non-sequitur conclusion; saying only .2% of people experience police violence, it “does not follow” that we don’t have a problem with police violence.
Regardless of if police shootings went down over a very short period of time - they are still ridiculously higher than most other democratic countries.
The United States statistically is between Angola and Uruguay in terms of % of population killinged by law enforcement, and worse than Colombia, Rwanda, Mexico and Pakistan to name just a few.
The using a statistic to show the argument that there is no problem with Policing in the United States is blatantly lying with statistics when United States police killings are statistically 20-30 times those of other economically advantaged democracies like Australia or Germany and more than 60 times higher than the United Kingdom (who we inherited our judicial system from). Even compared to our closest geographical and cultural neighbor, we are Police Killings are three times those of Canada and even Mexico’s police look good compared to US statistics.
Ray, absurd? Are crime statistics falling? (I might be wrong).
Here’s another absurdity for you. I will conjecture that those of us here on IL are almost completely isolated from the “issues” we are in dialog on. I experience zero police oppression (but I also break very few laws) and no crime (can afford a nice neighborhood). And yes, I am in a position to choose my city/neighborhood.
I do think we have a widening Cognitive Divide. It’s a complex world to navigate. Those that can,can do well. Those that struggle are not so empowered. That’s where my thoughts around bridge conversations comes into play.
It’s perplexing you compare the US to Pakistan. Several of us were culturally appropriating some Nihari (delicious spicy lamb stew) with our Pakistani coworker and he was asked. ‘Do you go back much?’ His response was ‘my wife and daughters are blond Americans. They would rape me right along with my wife and daughters.’
But yes, we do have Red segments of society near us. They kill each other with abandon at vastly higher rates than the police are killing an unarmed ‘victim’. Heck you and I have Red in us as well, as well as Amber, Orange, maybe some Green (hopefully not too ego hijacked), indigo, … Since we know this, what do we actually do?
I’m not sure if you didn’t understand what I wrote with regards to USA vs Pakistani police violence or if you are intentionally just ignoring one set of facts that are inconvenient for you and only look at facts that support what you already want to believe.
It’s a convenient story to make up about thousands of people you don’t know hardly anything about - again to fit in with what you already believe. I myself know for a fact that lots of people get into these areas after great struggles in life.
I agree with the last point:
What we actually have to do is really look at it as it is - if red is red, then plainly say it’s red and don’t try to distract from it being red. And I say that the Police in the United States are far, far, far too red for a wealthy democracy.
The rest is just trying to spin it way and not look at this for how red it really is.
Oh, crime statistics are down ? The Police are still too red
Oh, you haven’t been the victim of police brutality? The police are still too red
Oh, rape is high in Pakistan? The Police in the United States are still too red
Oh, you believe people at Integral Life are caricature Green types who are all wealthy trust fund babies? The Police in the United States are still too red.
Agree completely the police are too Red and also comparing our police basically a military religious state like Pakistan is a non sequitur.
So instead of “reporting on” (from the upper trajectory of the Cognitive Divide), how do we “engage with” all those Reds and Ambers and Oranges so we can, as KW might say, subsume and transform?
I think to look at this we really have to recognize that this isn’t something that was inevitable to happen, because no other wealthy democracy has this problem.
Here are the main problems I see:
Us vs them - Police training should be assessed and changed wherever it stresses the public in general as always having to be treated as dangerous.
The thin blue line - Internal affairs investigations have to be conducted and reviewed by a body outside the City’s organization structure.
Homeland security - Police should be peace officers, not warfighters trained to treat protestors as terrorists.
Creating criminals - All drugs should be treated as medications and be issued under supervision of a Dr. with a prescription. The police should not be killing people over drugs. The whole war on drugs was a complete waste and made all the problems worse.
Most of this can be accomplished with new accountability and organizational structures and training. For example, a federal group of investigators who investigate police shootings rather than the same Police Department. Or a federal professional license like TSA Officers are required to have and cannot keep if they are fired for cause or ever had it revoked. Basically, anything to have any kind of accountability over officers that cannot be corrupted by Municipal politics or threats by police to not follow their oaths.
The Federal government does the with all kinds of things already - here are the rules and you have to follow them if you want federal funding. The problem of the last 20 years is the federal government has done this and their guidance has been to treat the population as an inevitable security threat, and given them military equipment to do a “police action” on the population.
I’m reviewing KW’s altitudes paradigm so currently using this lens predominately. One thing I can’t get past is that I don’t think there are any short cuts for society, segments of society, or each of us as individuals. We have to handle our I/We Red then Amber then Orange then Green then… It’s really a get Your/Our stuff handled at whatever level I/We are at, or I/You/Us/Them simply do-not-pass-go to the next altitude. KW goes into this in great detail on how each meme can easily justify destroying the other memes. Red’s give me your money or I’ll crack your head. Orange’s get a job loser. Green’s the absolute truth is that there are no absolute truths so get with my program. The idea of “include and transform” is easily lost.
Looking at our “police issue”, it seems to me that the less laws you break (Amber/Green) the less likely you are to be “victimized” by the Red police. I view the police as “basics managers” (Amber/Orange?) - don’t speed, sell drugs kids, beat up people, etc. Isn’t it way outside their mission to take on implementation of the multitude of social and assistance programs. Police don’t have this mission, training, likely not the aptitude (since not hired or structured for that). We, in my opinion, definitely need to “de-militarize” the police (see link) as they very easily in some instances “escalate” things. This is in fact more and more Amber that I don’t think is what will be effective.
If we consider their “mission”, it’s not to fix all the dysfunctions across the massively diverse (diverse in every way) society we live in here in the US. Their basic mission is to, well, police the population with the laws that were put in place by the people that we elected.
Are their dysfunctions in the police? Absolutely? Give them army tanks? Not necessary.
Are the police a major “cause” of drug abuse (meth, crack, fentanyl - the hard ones)? Are the police a more significant influence on drug use in the US than say free flow amazingly inexpensive very well design synthetic drugs? Hardly.
Should the police kill a 6’5" 220# ex-D1 athlete that’s lived his life in the Red/Amber jungle, high on fentanyl and meth (the strongest synthenic street speed and opiod on the planet), and trying to pass counterfeit money? Heavens no. But is this justification to legalize “the strong stuff”?
So how can I/You/We/Them all start getting to “pass go” and travel up the altitudes? I think, as Ray has lined out that it takes some work at all levels - Red, Amber, Orange, Green - to make progress.
The drug war and the militarization of our police are two issues we need to change immediately as mentioned by many of you. This is a no-brainer at this point. How we get our politicians that are in bed with special interests and looking out for their own careers to start acting on these issues is a huge obstacle. Media/news is another problem. They’re driven by the desire for ratings so objectively informing the masses is not a priority. How do we change that? Fortunately, we can see alternative media slowly bringing these issues to greater degrees of public awareness. I’m not very patient and I’m not sure if it’s fast enough. Grass root efforts are alive but the counter forces are driven by big money and all of those institutions still have the attention span of the masses. That’s a wicked problem! I guess we keep having conversations like this and talk to our friends & neighbors about these issues. Forget about the weather…