Alternate Noosphere/Higher Level - Tangerine?


#61

I’m starting to feel like anti-woke is trending to be the new woke.
Antiwoke is “in”, woke is “out”.

What I am observing is that anti-wokism shares many of the characteristics of Green tier, but similar to Wokism is often displayed through and subverted by shadows from other tiers that were not resolved.

Antiwokism, like wokism does not have a requirement for logic (regression to pre-logical), focuses on binary us vs them (tribalism), requires all or nothing without any shades of gray, often has a victim-persecutor dynamic (see above), collapses or withdraws under direct challenge only to re-emerge elsewhere, uses dog whistles and innuendo rather than being forthright, invents “alternative facts”, ignores logic when presented, and so on and so forth.

As the anti-woke movement grows, it uses the same tactics as the woke movement used. It’s come to the point where Liberal or Conservative views don’t actually mean anything and are words from a language that is losing most of its meaning. People mix and match whatever emotionally charged words spins to their group’s benefit regardless of actual facts or what the words actually mean.

Speaking of zones, I believe this can be traced back to zone 1 being completely “short-circuited”. Most people don’t introspect anymore. Meditation in English has a corrupted meaning. Instead, people are provided with what they think and believe from their chosen media. What they are told to think by the media they respect as “the truth” is in conflict with what they actually would believe if they actually thought about what they really think (and if they have the skill set to do so). So the majority of modern society has a severe disconnect in Zone 1, which grows the shadows in Zone 2 to increasingly strong negative emotions. Some people direct these negative emotions inward and get depressed while others direct the negative emotions outward onto others.
If we look at Zone 3 and 4, global resources are being used to disproportionately contribute to this “short-circuiting”. Behavioral and medical sciences are funded by consumerism, not for the betterment of all humankind. The result being that even most educated people cannot even formulate a concept of what their actual problems are. For example, I get creeped out when I hear people joyfully singing commercials that played on TV in the 1970’s. Consumerist jingos have been so deeply imbedded in our psyche in zones 2 and 3, most of us can’t even begin to fathom how deeply. That’s just one of dozens of examples. War is another that lies deeper than race or consumerism.
I think the only way I can see these patterns is by jumping in at the deep end into Zone 9 to outside both the collective and the individual. Who am I / we if all the other zones are stripped away, even Religion? Only exterior of the collective can we then analyze the collective and trace how Zone 7 creates Zone 4, 3 and so on down the line.

To bring it back to wokism and anti-wokism - who are we if there is no longer any us / me? Then from that perspective we can look at us / me with an appropriate detachment.

You probably already pondered all this, though. Anyway it was a good thought experiment for me to put it to words.


#62

Originally this was supposed to be higher but it was negotiated down. Corporation tax rates in G20 countries have been getting lower and lower on account of countries competing with one another for the profits from corporate giants. Having a minimum is a huge success, in my opinion, as it avoids that continuous competition and reduction from countries outside the G20, and from G20 countries decreasing it below the 15%. There is one G20 country with their current CT slightly below 15% btw - Switzerland.

I think the minimum should have been put as higher, but there is scope to increase it further down the line - a positive to doing it gradually is it isn’t such a shock to the economic systems of countries with currently low CTs - e.g. Hungary, Ireland and China.

Other positives, irrespective of which countries it directly affects, is it prevents corporate giants, and any company, from committing tax avoidance, wiping out competition from smaller companies (I remember in a previous thread this was something you were concerned about) and from companies behaving ethically in regards to paying corporation tax.


#63

But helping other people isn’t being against Western Civilisation. I’m not sure what you consider Western Civilisation to mean.


#64

I use the classic Western Civilization definition of Greco-Judeo/Christian-Roman based developmental lineages. And personally I’m only a proponent of Western Civ since it’s clearly what’s worked best for the vast majority of its peoples.


#65

I can see how you might see this from your very high altitude vantage point, but as someone that’s probably flying much closer to the “mainstream” altitude I would offer a slightly different perspective.

Reporting in from the low altitudes if you will (hopefully this isn’t taken as bad faith) it really is as simple as “Judge a man by his character, not be the color of his skin.” with the extension to something like “don’t worry about what you think someone might be thinking, but judge them by their words and actions”. Many low altituders have gotten worn out with others “assessing from afar” their inner states and motivations, while also completely ignoring what these humans actually “do in the real world” to make the world a better place.

It’s a beautiful thing in our liberal society that it’s been supported and highly encouraged for millennia to investigate, research, formulate, and postulate alternate developmental lines. But the vast majority of the population don’t have the luxury to throw out the baby with the bath water on the off chance of transcendence based on theories derived from lineages with negative track records of delivering “better” much less transcendence in the real world for real humans. At some point, it comes down to something implementable in a positive way with high probability of yielding positive results - again, for the people living and working, raising children, in the real world.
Perhaps if everyone - Woke, Antiwoke, Post Woke, Woke Ignorant - were to focus on positive futures both incremental and Meta we might see much more inclusiveness, agreement or at least quality disagreement. I think the really difficult part is to communicate Post Woke or Neo Woke or Nothing to Do with Woke in a way that creates positive associations and perhaps positive futures both near term and Meta.

This video is a pretty good summary of perhaps how many for what I assume you see as these “Antiwoke” are finally Antiwoking Up too if you will.


#66

@FermentedAgave
Thank you for providing a perfect example to my point.
I don’t really care who thinks who is at what altitude and your ironic self depreciation is is just dog whistle rhetoric. Again - saying something but not having the courage to actually say it. It just shows how much you’ve abandoned conservative values in favor of the new woke-anti-woke paradigm. If you still had true conservative values you wouldn’t hide behind victimology and self depreciation.
You are so zealous in your anti-woke crusade that you don’t even bother to consider how very much you resemble the woke meta.

So stop doing that! Stop assessing your own inner states from afar. Claim your own inner state and accept ownership for your own inner state. Don’t try to hide behind what you imagine what other people are doing or not doing. Own up to your own inner state and stop trying to dodge it by pointing the finger at others.
There is nothing wrong with being at low altitude, by the way. There’s both beauty and function at all altitudes. That’s the whole point of Integral Theory if I understand it correctly. It’s unfortunate when people are stuck in an unhealthy paradigm at any level including Green, but that’s also part of a process. This whole “higher” and “lower” levels is again just your own desire to see yourself at a lower altitude for some reason.

The amount of time and emotion people waste on bullshit problems that aren’t even there is completely astounding. So first off if people just realized when their strings were being pulled against their best interests they could probably live more happily off of less than half what they think they need and spend better quality free time instead getting all stressed out about imagined and invented problems. People (you, for example) spend so much time creating and dwelling on problems that don’t exist if you just stopped your life would improve dramatically immediately.
I agree with this:

I mean, you could start talking about positive futures instead of interrupting every dialogue on any topic to insert your sociopathic “negative against everything progressive and if Integral isn’t 100% against progressive it’s woke” nonsense.
So when are you going to start focusing on positive futures? Tomorrow?

However, I disagree with this:

The obligation isn’t on me, for example, to tread on eggshells around your, for example, insecurities. That’s more appeasement. In the short term it reduces conflict but in the long term the destructive beliefs become more entrenched and emboldened. If nothing I can say and nothing three or more other people in these discussions can say will change your point of view on your own meta, then that’s on you. Four or more different people and four or more different approaches. If nothing sticks, that’s on you.
Nice video and it supports my idea that “Antiwoke is the new Woke”.
What he is saying is that it’s very easy to use the same meta and just swap out the topics. So Woke Progressivism and Antiwoke PostConservativism use the same “Woke / Antiwoke” Meta.
That’s exactly my point. You keep beating this Antiwoke drum but your meta is essentially the woke meta.


#67

Do we still call it “Western Civilization” if the Greeks and Israel got all their knowledge from Asia?
Or do we just ignore actual history and believe that there were no Triangles before Pythagoras and no Geometry before Euclid?
Here’s a fun one - what if Jesus was taught in his childhood by three Kings from the Orient? And Jesus’ life story and teachings are coincidentally very similar to Krishna’s, who lived thousands of years before in Asia. If Jesus as a youth was taught these beliefs by three Kings from the Orient, Is Christianity still “Western” Civilization?


#68

Don’t take self deprecation as being passive aggressive. I’m simply acknowledging that others, perhaps yourself, have a much high altitude grasp on Integral Theory (or life or nuclear physics or…) than I might. I’m peddling as fast as I can and this is what it looks like. You might be peddling on the Tour de France, right?

I do own my inner state, as well as I may or may not understand it, and also acknowledge that you and others might be much higher altitude than myself, my friends, and many others in the world. Right now I am absolutely training myself in Woke-ology as Wokeism is going down right now in real time with an effort to restructure our civilization. I disagree with what’s going on so very much am one of your Antiwokist “lost conservatives” as you state it. I was trying to share what myself, many of my friends and family “share with me on how they think and feel” in order to share perhaps a viewpoint that others might gain some modicum of insight from. If you’re trying to paint me and many that I know and love as acting in bad faith, then you’re wrong.

@raybennett I don’t hijack threads. I respect the dialogs that others intend to have. But as a reminder, I started this thread we are in called “Alternate Noosphere/Higher Level - Tangerine?” as a discussion topic. If anyone is “trolling” anyone else, it’s you.

I specifically posted the video to SUPPORT YOUR POINT that YES there is a very large Antiwoke up swell happening. I think I also fairly clearly stated that the vast majority of humankind doesn’t have the luxury to just wave and claim “let’s go Meta” ignoring the immediacy of the real world they live in, so they’ll likely be Antiwoke. And I’m definitely not claiming to “be Meta” but would like to at least “see Meta” possibilities (why I’m here). The example we are currently in, this thread, was started to perhaps a consider, ponder, shoot down, discuss, disagree on, agree with, laugh at, laugh with a higher level Tangerine altitude based on extension of what’s been the most empowering, enlightening structure and society humankind has ever seen.

@raybennett Feel free to start your own thread on topics you would like to discuss. I promise not to disrupt your conversation.


#69

Is it not also the case that Moses etc. learned from Egyptians etc. Feels odd to leave this out. Also that the old egypt was ruled by a folk named kemtics and that these were by a majority black. The greeks married into their families in order to persevere culture and keep trades etc alive ?

I wanted to add this abit for a deeper historical context, since the south and northern history is mostly left out. I can see reletics of sweden etc. Taking over “western” cities etc. Still today.


#70

All great points @once3800 . If we get a chance to rewrite all the history books, maybe we change Western Civilization to Mediterranean Civilization or something similar much better than I’m not thinking of right now.


#71

Good one! Run Literal Mythic arguments against Literal Mythics with Literal Mythic myths. If I didn’t know you to be so Meta, I would guess you’re a Critical Theory practicing Wokester. :-:wink:


#72

Ok, I’ll ease up on the trolling a bit. Though I’d of course rephrase it as “provoking a response”.
I don’t think it’s useful to think about if yourself or others are “higher” or “lower” altitude. I’m not exactly sure where I am and I don’t think it’s useful for me to establish it. In my philosophy a low depth can lead to a higher resurgence and also a person thinking they are higher can lead to a drop to the depths.

I’d say the best thing thing you could do right now is just forget about wokism.
Or, if you do want to focus on it, only do it to find your own reflection. I’m not saying that “against” you. It’s a legitimate method to use and I use it a lot and as time goes by and you practice it more it will become more like a habit. Unfortunately there is a lot of linkage between this method and certain spiritual belief systems, but if you can drop all that and just see it as a technique it can serve you.
Any time you (and I) have a strong emotional reaction to another person or idea, it’s the brain trying to not accept something within itself. So if I ask you to see wokism in antiwokism - it can be an accusation - but it can also be an invitation for introspection. Then the second thing is self acceptance rather than self judgement. Am I lesser or better if I project my own wokism onto the antiwoke and realize I am doing it? No, neither lesser or better it’s just a deeper understanding and acceptance of myself.

My intent behind bringing up antiwokism was an effort to show that it’s a mulligan. A plot contrivance. The big hairy eight eyed monster that the writer put in the movie to explain why everyone does things that otherwise would make no sense. It’s a shortcut of writers so they don’t have to flesh out complicated story lines and complex motivations. In this case the writer is the left media and the right media

The best and most productive thing anyone and everyone can do no matter where they are is realize the absurdity of this mulligan and that it makes no sense. At some point progressives have to realize their mulligans. Yes, both the far left and the far right are following plot lines that make no sense because they have a whole bunch of hairy eight eyed monsters they can use as a reason for why the other side does things that make no sense.

These plots don’t bring anything of benefit to the lives of normal people nor to people of whatever altitude. The plots are to get normal people addicted to the story and to consume more product. It’s like a soap opera but the stakes are higher. People feel the compulsion to invest thousands of hours a year developing these soap opera plot lines in their real lives and have to work hundreds of more hours a year to support the consumer products that they were conditioned to “need”.

The next time you read, watch or listen to your favorite media, imagine the tendrils creeping out of it and trying to wrap around your brain and suck you into it’s horrific movie script. They are grasping, desperately needing you to participate in their soap opera or they become irrelevant.

And really, I do believe normal people lose more than they gain by participating in mass media of any type because suddenly they are following someone else’s script and not living their own lives and meeting their own needs.


#73

Understanding how to make a bomb does not make you a terrorist. Understanding the mechanism of Critical Theory does not make you Antiwoke. You can use like “mulligan” analog but the vast majority of humanity does not have the luxury to just “go Meta” when their children are being psychologically abused in school, losing their jobs due to national trade policies, or they are now governed by a radical Theocratic oligarchy.


#74

I’m curious where you think I live and how you think I am not living in the same world you are and compete in the same job market, and how my children were / are educated?
For that matter - where do you think I went to school in the 70’s that I avoided psychological and even outright physical abuse? One of my earliest memories of school is a teacher shaking the crap out of me or putting me in a corner numerous times - or then there was the teacher that took us into the hallway and yelled at us if we didn’t do our homework.
What miraculous job do you think I have where I do not have to deal with a real world economy?
What Government do you think I live under?
I’m sorry, but unless you are just assuming that I’m on Mars or born with a massive trust fund to rich emotionally healthy parents in a gated community … again, this thing calling me “Meta” is just another “mulligan” example. Rather than actually dealing with a complex reality where I live next door to you (figuratively) it’s simpler to just make up a word that doesn’t really mean anything (meta) and use it for whatever dramatic story you want to introduce.
If you are not born with advantages, life can be a struggle. My point is that there is no need to invent additional struggles or take on other people’s or organizations’ imaginary conflicts and spend all our time chasing our tails.


#75

I did a google search on “Key to living a full life” and this was the top result:
https://philhagspiel.medium.com/5-keys-to-living-a-good-life-56efbfab9d04
KEY #1: REALIZE THAT YOU ARE THE CREATOR OF YOUR OWN LIFE
KEY #2: DON’T LET OTHER PEOPLE’S PERCEPTIONS LIMIT WHO YOU CAN BE

Notice - “Constantly be upset and complain about how other people’s beliefs are hurting me or what tier people are on relative to me” is not on the list.

(I have no idea who that guy is, but hey - Google recommended him) :joy:


#76

"Go Meta and peace shall descend upon us’ saind Candy Lebowskis boy friend.


#77

That would be a fun project. Gotta love bias.


#78

With all that is going on today in the US, perhaps time to dust off the Tangerine Noosphere concept. Just to point out a few key indicators in the “public awareness” space that may foil the as-defined unfolding of the “Progressive” agenda: :

  • Biden/Harris/Pelosi/Schumer camp seems unable to implement their agenda even when in a historically dominate position with control of White House, House and Senate
  • Biden/Harris Administration Rule by Fiat facing significant State level and Court challenges across multiple fronts - Covid Mandates, Willful disregard for border security
  • Biden/Harris endangering US Citizens in Afghanistan against recommendations by military advisors
  • Public up swell of grassroots resistance to progressive educator’s systematic indoctrination and grooming programs promoting racism with children. Recent AG focus to “chill” local school board inputs by parents by utilizing Federal agencies.
  • Exposure of Clinton/DNC colluding with parts of Obama’s FBI and DOJ to fabricate materials against a rival political campaign. On going attacks based on same fabricated materials on a sitting President.
  • Seemingly significant unmasking of Big Tech up to and including lying to Congress, targeting children, stoking division for profit
  • Tumbling revenues of Progressive mainstream media outlets