Enlightenment evidence and description

spirituality

#1

Ken often states that there is a lot of evidence that enlightenment exists.

  1. Are there links to repository of these evidence?

  2. Which do you think are the most compelling? (to show to non-believers)

  3. Which descriptions of enlightenment do you think describe it best? (links or explanations)

Thanks :exclamation::heart:


#2

there are over two dozens definitions of enlightenment. Daniel Ingram’s books mctb (master core teachings of buddha) has a long section exploring different definitions or models.

i personally think 24 hour consciousness around the clock is a scientifically verifiable definition. another verifiable definition is capacity to exhibit constant delta wave while awake, as well as access to various advanced states on demand. (this distinguishes peak states and permanent traits) see ken wilber’s brainwave video on youtube to get an idea.

enlightenment is not equal to panacea to all problems or lack of personal flaws. this is one of the thing that confuses so many people and got cleared out only in the last 30 years or so.


#3

Thank you very much for the detailed answer! Much appreciated! :heart:

I’ll check out this book. Does it also contain something like a resource list of “evidence” of enlightenment?

there are over two dozens definitions of enlightenment

It seems like this is the enlightened people’s job to step up and talk about it, with the world and as public debates/discussions so that it will be more clear. Yes, the Tao can’t be put into words, but still, if you don’t do anything, you won’t impact anyone. If not for hearing about it from enlightened people I wouldn’t have believed it either…
I guess this is also the difference between the yellow stage (Integral) and turquoise (post integral). enlightened people that get to the highest stage see past the trying to change the world for the “better” because there is just nothing wrong with it as it is… there is no right and wrong, better or worst, so they just live their lives in our common heaven that we’re just blind to it :grin:

I agree with you that scientific evidence is very very helpful but science is always evolving and there are some things that can’t be proven through science yet (and maybe forever).

I saw the video long time ago and indeed it is very impressive and important.

Well, while writing this post I just burst into laughter as digesting these ideas more and more deeply :grinning:


#4

It’s a dodgey topic to define enlightenment by the behavior of people who have been enlightened, because so many enlightened people still have their shadows. They have “woken up” but might not have “grown up”.
Is trying to improve the world truly a “lower level” and “seeing past trying to change the world” as “higher level”? Or is that just some enlightened people trying to explain away their shadows?
What about “Showing Up”?
I agree @sheekus that it probably has more to do with being able to stay in various states more consistently. So I would propose that a person who is “showing up” in very difficult environments and also able to maintain their state is “more enlightened” (lol) than someone who is protected in a controlled environment. Let’s say for example if a Politician or world leader is able to maintain Delta brainwave patterns 24/7 that would be quite something to observe.
The difficulty with scientific measurement of enlightenment is that you have to measure a “zero” state. Well, let’s say the most enlightened people can stop all their brainwaves. So we measure their brainwaves and study 100 enlightened people and they can all do this. While people who are slightly less enlightened can only maintain Delta brainwaves. The problem there is that dead people also have zero brainwaves. This leads to an inherent problem in measuring enlightenment with brainwaves.