Gender differences and shadow

Town Square
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Late to the discussion but a couple of thoughts. I think hormonal change impact on developmental psychology might be a great starting point. We can then map to pure Integral terminology, but always keeping in mind the basis in physiology. If memory serves, KW was pretty clear that hormones are they greatest impact on human behavior overall.

  1. IT was built on Development Psychology.
  2. Developmental Psychology maps directly to Child, Adolescent, and Adult development
  3. Hormonal changes are the greatest influencer on Human Development

Male adolescents have a roughly 30X increase in Testosterone. Many traditional cultures separated men and women at puberty in order to honor these changes. I think it’s very convenient today to claim that “men wanted to hold back” (toxicity if you will) their female children when they were simply bifurcating the high estrogen subspecies from the high testosterone subspecies since they are so very different, have so very different needs, and communicate in such different of ways. I know in my extended family you won’t find a single woman for at least 3 generations that walked 2 steps behind, spoke only when spoken too, or was mistreated by any of the males. :slight_smile:

You could probably take these psychological changes based on hormonal differences and flip them to account for various shadow developments.

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Hi @FermentedAgave. Thanks for the response. There’s been a lot of more recent research done on physiological, including hormonal, differences. I recommend reading Testosterone Rex by Cordelia Fine who maps out all the research into testosterone and looks at it in terms of all 4 quadrants. This book won the Science Prize 2017.

There are so many factors that influence research - e.g. people often see what they’re looking for, because that’s what they’re searching for and so that’s what they set up their study around; people don’t take into account cultural effects and make the mistake of ‘correlation not causation’ from hormones. When able to break down these nuances, partly because of more advanced statistics, partly because of more advanced perspectives - people are able to look at what’s going on in its greater complexity and work out from which quadrants differences are stemming.

Basically, a lot of last research was just very limited and so giving wrong information, and there’s a far bigger effect from culture and social interaction than people realised.

Even when not taking culture etc into account, when you break down each gender trait and at look at the distribution curves, there’s an incredibly wide overlap between the genders on each trait - there are differences between the genders on each trait but it’s the case that e.g. 60% of males are more ‘masculine’ than the average female on a certain trait and 60% of females are more ‘feminine’ than the average male on a certain trait.

In the past people have both often grouped a bunch of traits and called them ‘feminine’ and grouped a bunch of traits and called them ‘masculine’. But people are so much more complicated than that. It will usually be the case that people are wide mix of both what has been termed masculine and what’s been termed feminine, and we would do all ourselves a disservice by limiting ourselves to simple boxes.

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@Julia248

I would view it as an iterative feedback cycle - physiology, individual psychology, societal. I’m not a professional in any of this :slight_smile: but would have a very difficult time discounting physiology’s foundational impact on the genders. Even subtle hormonal changes causing subtle predilections can cause significant influences in behavior, decision making, and flow right into society.
Transgenders seem to think the physiology is a big deal, as is hormone replacement therapy for both men and women.
Now you’ve got me wondering if perhaps it’s a societal construct that that I do all the heavy lifting, most of the dishes, half the cooking, and all the vacuuming around here? I’ll throw the yoke off these social constructs tonight and report back on how it goes :slight_smile:

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@FermentedAgave Absolutely. A complicated feedback loop between individual psychology, biology, and societal and social influences, and one that goes right back to the beginning of mankind. To untangle it and bring in all the different factors requires us to look at all these aspects and how they have interacted and played out throughout history.

A good example of a group of psychology studies is the effect priming has on test scores. If you prime children to think boys are smarter than girls, the boys score higher than the girls on the test; if you prime children to think girls are smarter than boys, the girls score higher than the boys on the test. The same effect is also found if you do the same study but with race. So history is still going to have an influence on us today, because it is priming us to think in certain ways, and it’s primed all the generations before us also, who are also priming us. So e.g. if you look at the fact that there are far more white males succeeding in professional fields, there’s no way you can put that down to physiology. It goes back through those historical feedback loops. However, today we have many, many more role models who are women and people of colour and so this effect should become less and less pronounced as we go forward.

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Sounds as simple as just priming everyone to succeed. Isn’t this the rapid progression that the West has been undertaking for many decades/centuries now?
Are some cultures better at this than others? How can we make these success traits readily available to all?

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I did not read the entire text, yet I will abide by what I’ve read from sort of integal theorie.

I notice the same pattern that priming is highly effective including the diversity spectrum. Yet, what I notice again what is missing is the idea of intersectionality. Also often how certain people in the intersectionality spectrum gain more help from others and that treating everyone equally is a prime example of how priming already occures. Via bias and that deleting that bias would be a true no-mind or a state of no thought.

I notice more and more through meditation how every single thought has an impact. Humans are highly sensitive creatures. I would love if someone could include a deeper analysis based on morphic resonance here.

Sexuality issues and consent is extremly difficult I talked to several women in my life and they told me a couple of stories how much attention is also given to their bodies without consent. At the sametime it is male nature to sort of look at women bodies and enjoy them to not see them as an object, yet as a mutal source of pleasure. Where consent is needed and shadows and trauma can occure. This is why and how these complex issues occure.

I can see also how more poverty and opportunity to education, housing in increasing these topics. How much also technology nowadays is needed in order to check what other people are doing/performing. For instance a.i technology and or machine learning technology. How sensetive people react to a camera alone is mind-boggeling.

I can see also how a healthy self-esteem and a good body image sort of the good part of the boomer parents that I had is important here. I feel because of this I am sort of out of the conversation so far, and it is more about how people respect their bodies. Mutal consent, dialog and open conversation, also working with trauma and shadows. Exercise alone is a way to work with that. Also, being able to look inside the Enneagram I can sort of see where these shadows reside in each type.

Talking more openly about the Enneagram could add more to a TOE. I often feel that 1’s and 9’s do have great insight, yet without them healthy developing I find that these rules / consent / tradition that exist. Especailly, also followers and support and a feedback system for them and their ideas could be great. I also notice the hatred against men makes no sense and it is often let out at vulnerable and soft men who have an open heart in a sense. This also can get close to emotional abuse, especially when you are senstive like me as a type 4 enneagram.

Also, sort of this “maga” stage orange fad and scientific materialism is especially dangerous. A lot more people in Germany and the Americans that come here identify with their possesions. Usually people are more relaxed and accept and tolerate each other. Yet, corona certainly did change this a bit. Yet, having americans here in Germany makes me feel more save. Simply, because of the strong achievement and exellence drive that is present in Germany and a lot a lot of antagonism currently. People generally are very green and tolerant of each other and their differences. Yet, tolerating differences already add up to the priming effect, since you accept the maps that people run through their skull …

This is exactly what I see when I notice this “holonic asymmtrie” on each scale of the spectrum and that harmony and having an interconnected relationship with others is highly important. Sharing experiences heartache, pain, dreams, goals, success. Without glee I often feel this glee is what drives this priming effect of others, that having … the advantage is key. Yet, I feel that more and more support is coming as long as people are working together to solve problems together. This is also from a book called Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior. Where they made a study of a homogenic group and saw that even under them antagonism occured because they were primed to fight against each other and earn prices etc.

When they were able to work together they were able to resolve their issues, and that fighting for the greater good is of importance. All of them gave had purpose and were included. What I presume with that is that priming occures on every level on the spectrum and quadrants. Then again how complicated this issue is is again insane. For a personal example my intersectional identity is I am half american / half german / half white / half black / bi-racial etc. etc. I can see that this is simply an intersectional identity and talking about each part of mini-holon is … IS not as easy as I would love it to be. For instance Germans often think that Americans are dumb because of their entertainment industry imo. This left a pretty big mark on me and having conscious opinions and well-informed opinions is a truely difficult issue today. With so much nitch/alcove thinking. Where a healthy pluralism is of utterly importance I feel here. Even having the AFD here at the Bundestag should be illegal. IMO we already have a strong conserative party I don’t feel like we need any radicals who are misusing science for their own benefit constantly. OH look we have scientist XYZ let’s vote for the antagonistic, anti-feministic, mysogonistic, racist, homophobic party. This is also what I sort of mean by “morhpic field / ressonance” or a de novum effect occuring.

That I can see how important it is again to prime ourselves to help prime others more consciously and positively and without distorting back to fear-mongering tactics and constantly churning each other up for no greater benefit.

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@FermentedAgave, well that depends on how you define success. How it’s defined in this context, and how it’s usually defined, in our competitive cultures, is how well one does in comparison to others, and success for everyone in that context isn’t possible.

If you were to define it in another way, such as how well people get along, how happy and fulfilled they are etc, then everyone could be successful in that sense.

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@Julia248 It’s the comparison to others that people for millennia have been trying to overcome. Sometimes to dominate others (external, dominance), but most importantly for each of us to overcome within ourselves (internal quadrants).

One thought I have is that since humans are the apex creatures that we know of, is it humanly possible to not be somewhat competitive with each other?
Can we look at our “competitiveness” not so much as “dominance”, but a strive to learn from and innovative/execute more quickly than others? At least at the higher development levels. Hmm…

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I didn’t say we should get rid of competition. Both of the above can exist at once.

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To the limited binary of win-lose competition no one (thanks @Julia248) succeeds all the time.

A question for you and @FermentedAgave … what success metrics or ideal formula could we define that would encourage an optimal community dynamic?

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You can win and lose to greater and lesser extents. When you have competition, you have winners and losers.

If you mean, ‘no one succeeds all the time’ - agreed…

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On this topic string https://community.integrallife.com/t/conscious-co-operative-capitalism we suggested some other success models as follows: Curious what do you think of these?

"By consciously restructuring the existing profit models toward greater shared benefits and better service toward others we all win. The best of the best will compete for bigger and better ideas at helping others.

Financial success will be less attractive than the social capital and influence earned by the super-stars of Conscious Cooperative Capitalism. They will have the credibility and co-operation of others to serve as Conscious leaders in our new economy.

The existing power centers built on Raw Competitive Capitalism alone will break apart, requiring that they too restructure to this new Conscious Cooperative effort if they want to remain viable in the marketplace."

Curious what do you think @Julia248 of these?
Perhaps you have some additional metrics in mind to add to the definition?

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Sure, and this is what’s currently happening - companies are competing in terms of who is benefitting people most, because this is what people are increasingly caring about. It’s also happening with the environment - e.g. more and more people want to have an energy supplier using 100% renewable energy, and so these are the suppliers that are succeeding. Seems positive to me. They are still competing and so the companies doing less well are losing…

The concept of directing finances towards social capital and influence is something that’s mentioned by Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching if I remember rightly, and is something seen a lot in collective cultures.

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Some of these MEGA CORPORATIONS can afford to meet these ever stricter standards. Sadly most lobby for exemptions because they have the political and financial power to do so. I.E. (The Trans-Pacific Partnership)

Some people (the vast majority?) sense this type of crony capitalism is what creates the bifurcated have’s and the have not’s? How do you suggest this be addressed since no one even hears the pleas of the little guy? (RSB Marketplace?)

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A possibility would be to give government support -bonuses/tax breaks - to anyone cutting carbon emissions. I think this probably already happens in a lot of countries.

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I agree that this is the narrative we read about … but to me it’s totally unrealistic in the “real world” … Please let me explain or inquire of you if you already know.

Regarding bonuses/tax breaks … a really small business owner is barely paying taxes because they make very little money. Many don’t even earn enough to pay taxes, they are on Government welfare collecting “earn income credits”. These small business owners are our fellow citizens and they are being completely shut out of the economy.

For example: If you own a small local restaurant you are competing just to survive another month against large corporate franchises with billion of dollars. They have lots of money and power. When you go out to eat where do you spend your money?

Some 2020 Statistics: Small businesses make 99.9% of US businesses and employ 47.1% of US employees.

The small business owners that employ close to half the population in the US are slowly being squeezed out of business by the big giant corporations; who can afford to monopolize the marketplace. These giants push for more Government regulations they can afford to comply with; their intention perhaps being to put the little guy out of business?

Sadly I feel as if the next generation has no idea about any of this? Please if I’m missing something and you can help I’d sure love to hear it. If you don’t have better answers please let me ask for support and help sharing this information with others.

(Watch Damnation on Netflix to feel some of parallels from our history)

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Let’s look at gasoline prices and my lawn maintenance guy as an example…

  • Government fiat raises gas prices by 50% here in the US with the intention of driving electric vehicle adoption.
  • My landscaper drives an old pickup pulling a large trailer that gets likely 10 mpg. Other than wages, fuel is his single largest operating expense which the government has just increased by 50%.
    I don’t know what he pays his employees, but I doubt they make $15/hour. Probably $10? Government fiat raising his employee costs by 50% will force some very serious business decisions.
  • Raise prices and risk losing clients? This is called price elasticity of demand and a very well known economic “law”, just like Inflation. At some price point, I will mow my own lawn.
  • and/or reduce his employee count which happen to be his children…

Brandon has never owned a new truck in his life much less put a deposit down on a Tesla Cybertruck so he can “go green”. He is the perfect example of a Really Small Business owner. The chances of him being able to “participate in” the massive benefits of this “new green economy” before he goes out of business don’t look so good.
And what’s most twisted about all this is Brandon DOES NOT WANT the government to destroy his business for him so he can go on a Federal Universal Basic Income.

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LOL. I binge watched Damnation on your last recommendation. Talk about the Duality of Life!

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Update; Conversation didn’t go as planned… Seems my lovely wife is completely bought into the patriarchy and I’m stuck with all the dirty heavy work yoke to drudge through life shouldering and also somehow picked up on demand barrista, dog feeding and foot massage duties.

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Wow @FermentedAgave you hit it right out of the park with your story on this. Thank you :slight_smile:

I will go further … these same corporate giants also want open boarders to flood the market with low-skill and low-wage (under-the-table) workers to further crush the little guy (middle-class-working-families).

I am hoping to hear back from @Julia248 or @once3800 and everyone else here on how the younger generation(s) of integral thinkers integrate these market dynamics into an integral framework that can/will accommodate everyone?

As I see it … this inherited life-style of Americans is being torn-away from our youth. Please @Julia248 and/or @once3800 help explain what we’re missing in all of this? If you don’t have answers perhaps you can share this with people in your circle(s) who might? Thank you! :slight_smile: