George Ivanovich Gurdjieff - reimagined at Tier 2? (

I asked Google Gemini to write a report on ‘Practices and Experiences in a Gurdjieff Group Meeting’

It starts off like this:
George Ivanovich Gurdjieff, a figure of significant influence in the realm of esoteric spirituality, developed a comprehensive system of inner development known as the Fourth Way.1 His teachings center on the premise that individuals typically exist in a state of semi-conscious “waking sleep,” and that through specific practices and efforts, a higher state of awareness and being can be attained.3 Gurdjieff’s approach uniquely integrates the physical, emotional, and intellectual dimensions of human existence, offering a path to transformation that distinguishes itself from traditional spiritual disciplines.5 A core aspect of this path involves participation in group meetings, which Gurdjieff considered essential for fostering the necessary conditions for self-awakening."

I’m wondering if anyone has experience of Gurdjieff work at Tier 2 or beyond? Like, Ken’s religion of tomorrow but like in the 2nd ‘we space’? I’ve also read a lot about appreciative inquiry and wondered how a positive approach to working with I (ego) can work with others?

Sorry, totally random ideas all coming together here. But maybe to refine my question and I go. I’m asking. What would a Gurdjieff movement look like (for reals) when analysed using the practices suggested in Religion of Tomorrow?

Anyone go to such a group? Do they exist? In real life (Tier 2 Gurdjieff groups)

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Formatory Apparatus - someone suggested I look at this in relation to this thread. Not sure what to make of it.

Check with Russ Hudson.

There’s also a Gurdjieff group in Philadelphia. They may have someone who is doing that work. Christian Wertenbaker is involved with that group.

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I know they exist. I’ve heard talk of them. Good question.

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What I would find interesting is how precise the definition of “waking sleep” is, if it is clearly identifiable or more vague. Then if this state is demonstrably bad and why.

For example, many western adaptations of eastern practices seem to think that being in a floaty state detatched from reality is the ultimate goal and a sign of “enlightenment” or “awareness”. One might call these variations as “waking sleep”.

This begs the question: what is the end state to be desired? I myself find the end state of Integral “Growing Up” leaving much to be desired.

I cant remember whose methods say “start with the end in mind”. On occasion I have gone through early to mid stages of various practices only to realize that the end goal these practices were heading towards was not actually desirable.

It could be that the most popular and most successful practices (at least in terms of sales) are able to clearly identify the end state of the practice and that is able to resonate with an initiate as a desirable outcome.

Just a tangential thought that occured to me.

Are “higher states of awareness” actually a desirable outcome? Sometimes i observe people claiming to be living in this state and wonder.

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I’ve reflected since my original post that sometimes you just need to be ok with your inner R2D2. It might be mechanical. It might not be able to speak even. But it can relay interesting ‘clips’.

I’m working on a book that will more cogently outline what I’m trying to say with this old YouTube snippet.

Reflecting today, I think Ken’s religion of tomorrow helps me wonder about what’s next for institutions like Gurdjieff - can they find the limiting governing rules that need questioning?

I like this forum for that reason. A place you can reflect on anything.

I’ve heard that the head of the new administration is part of a group in Washington. It’s going global now. He acts like it half the time anyway.

Two different takes on the same thing?

Japan

USA

The thread for me is that if you are trying to transcend and include automatic thinking. That has to include all types of ‘thinking’.

I’m curious how first person elements fit with group work. What’s the pattern that connects?

This is my next chapter. I’m curious about how to create a sense of flow for readers while also recognizing you can’t please/write for everyone. I’m surprised that people try actually. SES to me reads so differently to RoT. Maybe it’s okay to allow texts to be opaque for some?

I’m thinking a chapter at the end about textual choices and semiotics night be helpful.

But how do we do these kind of things when we’re not writing books but part of real time conversations? I guess you can get used to people over time. So you know that sometimes a word means a framework of ideas, sometimes, a simple concept, other times it’s a reach for something we didn’t have words for but that didn’t stop us trying… Patience and trust I guess.

I have found a group, I thought I’d update the reflection thread, just in case anyone in the future finds this thread and has been searching for what I called^^ a second tier Gurdjieff group (in light of Ken’s Religion of Tomorrow).

I’ve been very happy with group meetings so far (it’s an international group). They have everything you would expect:

  • group meditation with chances to speak in tongues afterwards (with chance to clarify what the Spirit is saying afterwards)
  • reading groups where we read aloud sacred texts and pay attention to what we’re reading and reading the room at the same time to ensure we’re not being mechanical in our inflections
  • movements classes - uncomfortable at first of you didn’t take dance classes as a kid
  • one of the elders has taken me under her wing for’ emotional coaching’ which has been super helpful

I can only say, if you seek such a group, you will find one. I’ve been really appreciative of how posting here helped me clarify what I’ve always been searching for.

My next steps are to try and figure out the ‘hidden curriculum’. I think part of the organization is actually hidden from newbies. I’m self aware enough to know how that could sound. But if you’ve been part of one of these groups you’ll maybe know what I’m talking about! Anyway, first rule of group is… Don’t talk about group! (Sorry couldn’t resist fight club reference).

I’ve attached two very different pictures. To illustrate how hard it can been sometimes to know what’s happening in group. I think it’s just as well they welcome people who might have an artistic sentiment. Anyway, if you find this post, sorry it’s not very helpful, but in my own way I’m trying to encourage you that ‘if you seek, you will find’ and that there are some freaking really nice and wise and kind people out there. Just trust your compass and keep knocking is all I’ll say! (And be ready to learn when you meet them – you have to be careful what you wish for!)

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I think my next chapter, if it’s okay to keep working here. Like a sort of chill integral scratch pad. Reflecting about my group experiences.

Gregory bateson, did he make the cut into SES? Footnotes maybe. So he had this game where you take two wildly different things. Any-things. And find a ‘pattern that connects’. Genius. Although if can be complex at times. And we learnt in group this week that things can come in 3s and 7s as well. At least I guess? I’m new so I didn’t ask too many questions.

But here I can be free to imagine as I please :slightly_smiling_face:

So how do my two pictures relate? Let’s try! To find a pattern. That connects.

I’ll take this as my little step to the edge of what I can say with words. But have fun as well! No scary things will be allowed to keep it safe.

  1. A Trojan horse. It can be a symbol as much as a literal story. I learnt that in therapy. So sometimes the therapist might suspect a snippet from her analysands imagination might be real and true and truthful. And it beholds a unknown truth. And their special job can be to gently hold it up to see in the room together. And see what happens next. The Trojan horse is a symbol that could mean a lot of things right!? When we think about it like a symbol. Not a history lesson. But that could be fun as well.
  2. How to get unstuck from linkedin** - a spiral. We can see the artist/thinking behind it is clear. It is not as symbolic. It a mini idea packaged with a nice line and words. It can bring us to reflect on how we might like to reflect on how we get stuck with others. It’s not very deep. It’s not so deep we need to put it on our fridge for the weeks and wonder what the report is really getting to. It can be just. Ok, yeah, interesting. You might see it as how to be a process of wiggling from under the eagles claw. That would be an image to think about. But you might see something else that is more interesting. Maybe you didn’t see anything.

How do we find a connection?

This will now be my connection that connects. You might follow a different path. You might not connect anything. You might just smile and think. Ha, what is this? And that’s good too. I think.

So my pattern is a quick one. It goes like this:
A. Unconscious symbols are unconscious. We cannot directly know what they mean. Or they would not be unconscious. We need help to see the meaning for us. Good, bad interesting. And we have to realise this first or we will become stuck in a mess of our own mess. We will eat our own mess and then be sick or feel unwell. And then we will be worse than before we started. We can’t escape needing help with our Trojan horses.
B. What if one day we have a realisation of sorts. Where we are stuck with others. And they are helping us see our symbols but it’s making us sick? And we try and see this as part of our recovery and that really it’s necessary. And then we start to wonder. What if we need to say something?
C. We know that we can’t walk around saying we have no need for the medicine when we are being asked to. That would be rude and ungrateful. And the rules are there to keep us all safe from bad actors who might try and skip their medicine making more work for everyone. Mess everywhere. More work to clean up and make good.
D. My next step is what every sequence needs to escape the problem off logical types. It’s the slight of hands every author hopes will not be seen or felt. But I’m being honest for my own sake in my own reflection thread. It’s the possibility that one day we might change how we make our next safe move. We might have been learning to lucid dream just as one example. We might. And we might have been learning how to work with wood and crafting. And we might wonder to ourselves. What would happen if I didn’t call out? If I kept very quiet. And hid something inside the gates? That at night might contain something unexpected for the others to keep us safe with?

Now obviously this is a tall tale. Bayesian logic is very complicated and not even proved yet to be safe or even helpful. I guess to come back to my reflective thread. I wonder how we can know what will help us all to get unstuck? We cannot go back to naive therapy. It’s too easy to lose sight of real and unreal symbols which might be defences we need to stay safe from those who try (sincerely) to help. It keeps them busy at least as we take a pause to reflect.


So that was my experiment. Using bateson’s patterns today connect. I will go offline now to think about how helpful this has been. I will also ask my group what they think. I hope they will give me some guidance on what to do next. Being isolated can be helpful only so far I guess and then it’s back to work! Thank you if you have read this. You can comment if you like. I might like that. And also, I like this forum. It can be quiet and quite beautiful.

I will share one more picture. Just to finish my reflection with. I hope you (my imagined reader) will enjoy it as much as I do :slightly_smiling_face:

**https://www.linkedin.com/posts/susanadavidphd_its-easy-to-fly-into-a-downward-spiral-when-activity-7317939825108537345-saTC

Next week’s post, I am going to try and find the pattern that connects between:

  1. Priming (connectionist psychology looking at parallels with AI and corpus linguistics for any given group using back propagation training as key metaphor)
  2. Implanting symbolic Trojan horses into a network and observing the ripple effect.

In essence it’s a kind of plan to look for refactoring (restructuring) in increasingly official contexts. The key element, I’m predicting (Bayesian logic) will be the offline/online connections between the two. Don’t worry if that’s a whole lot of GIGO – I’ll have a week to digest the pattern and sort/spit something out.

Inspirational picture for today :slightly_smiling_face:

I just found this! Synchronicity (!)

Also found this hater efficiency makes sense, algorithms help find jean Gebsner type content set same batrsonian level (logical types)

Tapping in to similar content has always been how YouTube works even as their ethics around sensorial control evolved.

Oldie (14 yo) but goodie (unlike his UK lookalike from big brothers big mouth)

HB :memo: (:chicken: :horse_racing:)

Last message in this post :butterfly::crown::butter::baby_bottle::shamrock:

I’ve been on a cypher course all week with work and it’s been like drinking 10000 cups of tea.

Rule Britannia folks :uk:

Credits…

**** Break ****