How pornography has changed me

[KelleyD83]

Hello everyone,

I don’t know if other young men, either now or before, struggle with pornography addiction, but I’d love to offer a few pointers here and hopefully receive some advice in return.

I think I got hooked to internet pornography relatively soon after it came out in the 90’s. Back then, speeds on the internet weren’t what they are today. Being a teenage boy at the time, I fell into a type of trap, as I believe many young men do at that age, of pornography on the internet.

I’d seen a playboy before, but it didn’t give me the type of intense gratification as pornography did, and Playboy wasn’t as explicit, nor did it have people engaging in the act in real time. So for me, at the age of twelve, not watching it was too hard and felt like a lot of young boys my age were already involved. It was kind of a silent thing between my friends and I. We all knew we masturbated to hardcore pornography, but we couldn’t tell anyone else besides each other for fear of public shame or humiliation and for fear of severe judgment from society and our parents. Plus, we knew if we revealed our bad habits, we wouldn’t be allowed to watch it anymore, which was most threatening of all because it was so addictive. So we kept silent about it.

I still wonder how many young men and women, as well as adults, still struggle with this because of course it isn’t allowed to be spoken of. It’s definitely a dark and shadowy sort of topic, and when it’s brought up there are all sorts of notions surrounding it, whether good or bad, like most topics. But I’d like to try and bring it out of the shadows so these young men and women – for me, men especially – could have a conversation about it instead of hiding in the shameful shadow this addiction causes and has caused me.

In fact, in an effort to speak about this topic to females especially, I have been so violently humiliated and publicly shamed, that I have no desire to ever recreate those embarrassing situations. Just recently, again in an effort to uncover this embarrassing habit, I mentioned to a woman that she looked like a specific pornstar at which point I was asked to leave and never return. The paranoia and fear I felt from this experience was nothing I had ever felt, like a public “cancelling”, a “we don’t ever want to see you again” which to me felt like “it would be better you don’t exist than to ever speak about this, especially to a woman, ever again in your life”. These types of experiences have been happening to me since high school.

I never had ill will towards these particular females, but it hurt more to not be able to speak to women at all and so I chose to say what was on my mind, however inappropriate and embarrassing, rather than letting it sit and fester in my mind. When I see a beautiful female, I want to tell her, but the moment is fleeting, and then I feel like a failure for not approaching her. Couple that with the shaming by other men – calling me inflammatory remarks for not being able to approach women and having an addiction to masturbation --along with the media which tends to present men as always the silent perpetrators of some hidden perversion, not to mention these embarrassing experiences when attempting to talk to women, has left me clueless as to what women actually want me to do to the point that I don’t even attempt approaching them anymore.

I am a man and have needs, but I hate being treated like a pervert or a creep for saying a woman looks pretty and this has been going on for as long as I can remember. A constant sort of shaming of men and saying they’re all this way or that way, they’re all perverts or child molesters, rapists or pimps with a hidden agenda. This is what I’ve internalized as being a man in this modern world. Basically just that I’m hated and worthless, will never be loved, will always be judged, and am always, and I mean always, HIDING something.

When I read boomeritis it gave me the answer to these questions. When I listen to Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro and others, I feel strength in the face of hate and fury. To put it simply, I can’t afford to keep judging myself based on the leftist, feminist agenda, and honestly prefer spending my time with less toxic people who in my life are mostly men. They’re easier for me to get along with and understand because they don’t seem to be so damn wrapped up in some sort of ideology – they are just themselves. It is easier, perhaps, to be themselves.

Maybe that makes me a Nazi and maybe I should apologize for having a white penis, but I’m sick of apologizing and I’m angry at women, really angry at them.

I’ve been pushed so long and so hard and violently into the shadows. And you know what? I understand these young men who get so critically wounded that they go werewolf and act out their aggression on the world in the forms of mass shootings. I was nearly one of those poor souls as a disturbed young men.

As men, and this is why I like listening to Jordan and Joe and Ben and others, we don’t get enough credit. We are always being thrown under the bus and sacrificed by the crazy cult of victimhood on the left. It’s made me antifeminist when I used to be totally pro-woman. I see more sanity and peace in the way conservatives think and more fascism in the left than I do the right.

Basically I see fighting on a level I have never, ever seen it before. Egos grasping and clawing at each other…

What I want to say to those young men and boys out there, my brothers…

I am WITH you. I am HERE WITH YOU RIGHT NOW. We are in this together brothers. Women are not evil, but they are a bit confused and deluded right now and it’s not ok to go shoot up a building because of it. It’s not ok to attack others, EVER. But I am on your side. I am your ally, not your enemy, and we are in this together.

I love you guys.

Thanks as always to Ken for giving me a way out and hope when there was none, specifically with boomeritis. Thank you to Peterson and Rogan for fueling this journey and thank you to Jim Marion for showing me a compassionate way out of the miserable hell I have lived in in the past. Rest his soul. What a remarkable man.

Love, Kelley

[raybennett]

Yes, I agree these issues would benefit from being brought out of the shadows.
However, in doing so it’s important not to just swap out one set of shadows for another set.

This may feel like I’m ripping a band aid off a wound - but honestly there’s no point in coddling you.

Here is what I glean from your post
You experience SHAME from your relationship to porn
You desperately seek approval of women. You experience FEAR of rejection
When women do not approve of you, you feel HURT

The rest doesn’t matter.
SHAME, FEAR and HURT are primary emotions
Women are the “mulligan” you use to create a story to hide the true roots of shame, fear and pain
In one capacity the women are sluts and whores in pornography and this is a temporary distraction
In the other capacity as your enemy who somehow inflicts shame, fear and pain onto you. But we know this isn’t really the case, because you experience the same emotions after using them as whores and sluts in pornography.

If men really want to shine light on these shadows, they really have to accept that their emotions are not due to actions of women.

You seek approval of women and this is natural. We want to be admired, of course. But if the opinion of others causes you to experience shame, fear or pain then the solution to that isn’t going to be found in changing anyone else. As long as you look for approval outside of yourself, you are going to have problems.
You can choose to associate with only men who approve of you and who you can find some kind of solidarity with - men like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson, who themselves have the same baggage and honestly don’t have any real answers to a way “out”. (Joe Rogan imo is a slightly different case).

Whether “women” are confused or not is pretty much irrelevant, and you are misguided by Ben and Jordan in thinking the solution is to change women. It isn’t in anyone’s benefit to decide there are “sides”, and place women on one side and men on the other.

As a man speaking to another man, I challenge you to hold yourself accountable for your own inappropriate behavior. (If you deem it inappropriate) That’s an issue of you judging yourself, which in my opinion damages you much more than another person judging you. Don’t think I’m shaming you here or anything - porn has a healthy role in my own life. But how can you expect women to not judge you when you judge yourself harshly in regards to porn? As for telling a woman she looks like a whore in a porno that you masturbate to regularly … yeah … maybe don’t lead with that line. Maybe find another way to compliment her. And besides, in my judgement maybe don’t try to date women who look like porn stars and expect them to to be fully self actualized women. That’s a judgement I have about women who look like porn stars.

With telling a woman she looks pretty - look deeply why you have this need to do so. This is a complicated shadow a lot of men have. They try to twist it around that they are being nice or whatever - but down at the root of it is a man’s shadow that drives a need for him to do a behavior. The bottom line is that you are using the woman to fulfill your needs and when she doesn’t comply and give you the feeling you want, expect or even demand from her, then she is a “bad guy”.

[moss]

Hello Kelley.
Thanks for sharing your story and being open to ideas. Sorry for the trouble you have gone through.

Ray makes some good points here. I agree with some of the things you said Kelley, but I have a few disagreements I would like to share as well:

You mention you are angry at “women” and “Women are not evil, but they are a bit confused and deluded right now”. Of course it is fair to say that people in general are confused and deluded. My issue is that you are generalizing almost 4 billion people and getting angry at them as a group. It should not be too hard to see the issue with this. It is easy to get worked up about bad experiences, and you should be careful to put those in their proper context and not blame a whole group of people for the bad experiences caused by a small number of people.

It might be worthwhile to imagine how the women you speak to view what you say. I know it has been eye-opening for me when I experience unwanted sexual attention from gay men. I was not unsympathetic to the issue of women being on the receiving end of sexual harassment before that, but it really helped my appreciation for what they may be going through. They may receive a disproportionate amount of attention from creep-o dudes, and just like you find it difficult to not judge the whole gender by the behavior of a few when you have intensely bad experiences with those few, so they might also find it hard to give you the benefit of the doubt when you mention something about how they remind you of a pornstar.

Of course being a white man who happens to enjoy spending time primarily with men does not make you a Nazi. There are neo Nazis out there, and we have seen some serious problems they and other similar groups have caused to our society. I don’t think it is fair to say there is more fascism in the left than the right. Mean green meme types may have taken over a city block, but we had far right groups break into the Capitol building trying to prevent the democratic process. They are both troublemakers and you don’t want to seek group identity with people who are sympathetic to the extreme right. Jordan Peterson has encouraged his followers not to be neo Nazi/white supremacist types, and you have made clear violence is not OK, so I am not accusing you of being a neo Nazi-type person. I just want to encourage you to take a step back from the emotions when finding beliefs that resonate with you because good people can become radicalized when they are in a bad spot mentally and they fall in with extremists because the extremists are able to provide a group identity for them. It can be a slow process, so make sure you don’t get sucked in to that. I am glad you are part of this group instead.

As far as practical advice, try something like https://www.opendns.com/setupguide/#familyshield or site-blocking browser extensions to reduce porn use. Or do it directly with your computer’s or router’s networking configuration stuff. Could be interesting to learn and hard to change back if you are not already familiar with that stuff. This can help stop you from watching porn too easily.

If you do want to get into a romantic relationship, you could try to find a remote job and move to someplace like Latin America, Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, etc. Just keep in mind that there may be a lot of hustlers who will be after you for your money (and possibly getting a green card). If you are in a foreign country, the legal system may be less kind to you than you would think, and you could end up with your savings gone to someone who only pretended to love you. If you are careful, though, you could find a woman who will be a good wife to you as long as you are good to her and are making a good effort in life.

If you do choose to try dating in USA, I would like to second Ray’s point of not telling women they look like a particular pornstar. If you can find something else to connect with them on which is not initally sexual, that will probably work out better. Connecting with them about how great Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson are will probably narrow your chances quite a bit, so something other than that subject would be ideal.

Disclaimer - I have been unsuccessful with Western women despite being a reasonably attractive non-douche for the most part. Partly for lack of trying and being oblivious to advances, but anything I say on this subject I do not say as an expert. I do know of fellows who successfully woo Western women based on what seems to be personality alone. Can’t advise on how to do that though.

Also, Boomeritis is for a specific purpose: transcending green. If you are not at risk of getting stuck at the mean green meme, make sure you don’t use Boomeritis as fuel for dissociating from the good parts of green.

Good luck my dear fellow!

[gnosisman]

To me, pornography is just one of many pieces of the proverbial puzzle as to why relationships between men and women have often been so contentious, complicated, violent and even deadly throughout the world.

I’m reminded of Dr. Bernard J Paris’s book: Karen Horney: A Psychoanalyst’s Search for Self-Understanding. Dr. Horney (pronounced horn-eye) said the following

Any sudden increase in interest over sex differences, therefore, must be regarded as a danger signal for women, particularly, in a patriarchal society where men find it advantageous to prove on biologic premises that women should not take part in shaping the economy and the political order. On these premises elaborate convictions serving the interests of masculine ideologies become strategical means of preserving masculine superiority in the economic and political world by convincing women that innately she is glad to keep out of it

Elsewhere she says

“Once and for all we should stop bothering about what is feminine and what is not. Such concerns only undermine our energies. Standards of masculinity and femininity are artificial standards. All that we definitely know at present about sex differences is that we do not know what they are. Scientific differences between the two sexes certainly exist, but we shall never be able to discover what they are until we have first developed our potentialities as human beings. Paradoxical as it may sound, we shall find out about these differences only if we forget about them. In the meantime what we can do is to work together for the full development of the human personalities of all for the sake of general welfare”

While it’s true that women have greater liberties since Dr. Horney wrote those words, there is much that we have yet to learn and I believe our first priority is to take on precisely what she said: the full development of our human potential regardless of our race, gender, or sexual orientation. But how can we achieve this when anyone living in a society such as ours is so fucking confused about what it means to be human!? THIS is the problem facing humanity.

You apparently listen to Joe Rogan, Peterson, and Shapiro under the assumption that they are not toxic. Speaking Integrally, at what stage of development do you thing these men are at, respectively? Do you really think they have the depth of wisdom to understand the perennial problems of human existence? I don’t think so.

Peterson makes valid observations but keep in mind this man is not well. I believe Gabor Mate was right when he said that Peterson has a lot of pent up unresolved negative emotions. These emotions make their presence felt in what he says and what he believes. Because of this, I’m very cautious on what Peterson has to say and when it comes to amorous relationships, I rather not take any of his advice. Unlike him, I believe Esther Perel has a deeper understanding of the nuances and complexities that inevitably arise in relationships in this day and age. Just watch some of her many youtube videos and podcasts and you’ll see (what I regard as) a more humanistic approach to relationships.
I suspect men who listen to Peterson will say that Perel’s take on relationships are “leftist” with a negative connotation but then what is the difference between leftist and humanistic?
Is it possible for men to be vulnerable, compassionate and caring? Are these virtues leftist? Do they belong only to women?-this would be bullshit.

In Herb Goldberg’s article The Gender Trap, he describes the polarities men and women still find themselves in but the vast majority are not aware of it.

This madness has been playing itself out since …what? Adam and Eve and we are still at it! As men and women torment each other because they have no fucking clue how their respective mind operates. MLK would agree to the chart above when he said that too much love is weak and sentimental and too much power is arrogant and reckless. (we see this in US politics as well -getting worse by the day). Trying though it may be, these two forces have to be balanced but we are not going to if we take on one side and believe the other is a disgrace. Thinking in polarities is dehumanizing us!

I believe that anyone living in a sick society such as the US where the emotional and psychological stages of development among men and women are arrested, you are going to have pornography, prostitution, and all manner of crime related to it. I also believe, as Dr. Mari Ruti said, that the myth of romantic love (spoon fed into us since childhood by the novel and movie industry) has made us stupid. By stupid, I mean that we are completely clueless of our cultural conditioning. In this respect, I often can’t help but feel angry and frustrated at women because far too many of them on the online personals and elsewhere take on this hopeless romantic delusion that they will find their “ideal man” with a faith that is so overvalued, it becomes unmoored from reality.

At midlife, you would think that these women would know better but as long as they hold on to this ideological delusion of love, they will never see love from a higher stage of integral development. Alain De Botton brilliantly reveals the inherent problems with romantic love here and for the life of me, the women I know refuse to even consider it. Most women give me the impression that they don’t want to know the truth about love because they are too set in their ways. Even those who have been deeply hurt in the past, it never occurs to them to think that it was not so much the guys that breaks their hearts but that, at the outset, they got into the relationship with an understand of love that was deeply flawed -as Alain makes so clear in his talk.

So as a man in my mid 60’s where can I possibly find a woman who understands what I’ve said so far? Even the most highly educated are clueless about it. What makes matters worse is that many women are -in various ways and degrees- traumatized by their past relationships but go about seeking another one as if nothing happened. It’s near impossible these days to find a woman whose emotional well being is highly developed, at least to some reasonable degree. Among other matters, by highly developed, I mean a woman who sees herself -first and foremost- as a human being who just so happens to be a woman and is not captured by what culture tells her she should be. As Anais said

I friend told me that he just wants to have a fuck buddy because relationships are too messy and complicated. Then you have some men taking an alternative by buying highly sophisticated made-to-order sex dolls -even with A.I.- that are endowed in all the right places. They make sex dolls for women too. It just goes to show you how we are dehumanizing ourselves. I find it depressing and demoralizing and I can see why some men find it much easier to pay pickup artist to show them how to get as many women in bed as possible rather than learning how to establish a healthy relationship. This is what Matthew Hussey strives to do by helping women gain a greater understanding of themselves and dispel their misguided notions of romantic love.
If men and women could wake up from their respective delusions about love, we would not have pornography or prostitution. But this will not change in my lifetime. Considering what I’ve said, I don’t see pornography and prostitution as evil as most people do provide it is not violent or done against one’s will. If a man can’t have sex in reality, he should at least have it in his imagination and pornography fills that need provided too that it does not become an addiction. There are many serious problems facing us in this world that makes pornography pale in comparison.

In this, I recall the story of the Zen master and his disciple. As they were walking along a river, they came upon a beautiful woman who needed to cross. The master carried the woman on his back, crossed the river, put her down, and went his way. When he and his disciple reached the monastery, the disciple could not help but voice his concern about their vows of chastity and that they should not touch a woman. The master replied, “I left her at the river, you are still carrying her”. I believe pornography should be treated the same way in that we should not take it so seriously with so much moral indignation.

[KelleyD83]

Omgosh. This was an amazing read, gnosisman. Thank you for the time you have invested in showing me how seriously you took this post! It was reflected in your educated and beautiful reply. So well thought out and articulated and I appreciate it more than you know.

EDIT: In the future I will be putting one reply instead of multiple. I thought it would create a thread under each individual reply.

[KelleyD83]

Ray, thank you for your courage in being the first to respond. This was a great reflection to me that is indeed my own shame and guilt around sexuality and my fear of being rejected that causes me to act out in an unbalanced way, even when approaching women or writing posts like this in an effort to be seen, heard or accepted by strangers I don’t know. It has been a problem of mine for as long as I can remember. Thank you again!

[KelleyD83]

Ooh, this was good moss. On two points specifically. One, not blaming women, as a gender, and not looking at 4 billion people as one, and generalizing them. I was in a different headspace when I first wrote this, I believe a little angry, afraid and ashamed as ray pointed out, and I used a sweeping generalization to categorize a large group of people.

And on the second, thank you for reinforcing the fact that maybe it’s not ok to tell women they look like a specific pornstar. I mean, I’m kidding, it really isn’t ok.

And also, to not dissociate from GOOD green and to remember that the MGM and Boomeritis is only one side of an otherwise beautiful development in evolutionary consciousness.

Bless you friend!

[FermentedAgave]

I love Dr Harleys Marriage Builders materials.
Crux of the issue is men and women have different priorities in their needs. The needs are the same but priorities vary greatly. Works for us. See if it fits…

https://www.marriagebuilders.com/the-most-important-emotional-needs.htm