Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

I have just a moment before I need to get on to other affairs of daily life, but I did want to respond to a couple of things in your post.

Bear with me, but this to me is an example of how you sometimes take things beyond where they need to go, that is, if you’re concerned about relationship at all, and not just your own autonomy. If you had just left it with your first two sentences, then we would have had a starting point of just mutual agreement, a grounds for more of an “equal” relationship–we both looked into the conservative intellectuals the other suggested. With this sentence I’ve quoted, it seems to me you took the conversation into the arena of sort of a “one-upmanship,” and implanted your views/ideology/opinion where they were not required.

So instances like this make me question if you really want relationship, or if that is a lesser priority than making sure I understand that you found my suggestions to be “fringe thinkers.” Yes, you said “in your estimation,” but still, you took things where it wasn’t required they go–IF, you have interest in positive relationality. I hope you can follow this, and I’m not trying to be critical–this particular incident is no big deal in the grand scheme of things-- I’m actually just trying to let you know how others see some of your communication, which can appear as you trying to present yourself as #1, superior to others. I’m not sure if you intend to do this, but I will say, it’s not necessary to be or present oneself as superior in order to be seen as either smart or likeable.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Clarify?

Later!

Just to be 100% clear here, I play multiple roles in this community, both as a participant and as a moderator. The “God Mode” voice you speak of is my Mod voice – but even that wasn’t left purely to 3rd-person language, as I added plenty of “I think” and “I see” statements in order to own my own perspective. These are my perspectives, as moderator of this community. For example, I didn’t say “these are your patterns, own them.” I said “These are the patterns I see you falling into.” Could my perspective be off? Sure. But I am also managing this space, which does give my perspective more weight, for better or worse (“God Mode”, as you say) — which is why I do my best to be careful, skillful, considerate, but also strong whenever I am wearing that hat. (As a conservative, I’m sure you can appreciate the need to project strength when protecting your house :slight_smile: )

the incredible alignment between “Far Left” politics and the Integral Community

See, this is kind of what I am talking about. I have spent many, many hours trying to help you achieve a better understanding of the integral approach, and have even offered you a free course to help you ramp up. I’ve talked endlessly how integral seeks to include perspectives from both the right and the left as a typology that goes up and down the spiral of development, and expressed differently from different stages of cognitive/moral/values development. I’ve talked at length about how integral rejects both the extreme left and the extreme right (in fact, I am pretty sure we have more material on this site criticizing “wokeness” and and things like CRT, than we do criticizing MAGA/Q on the right, but we certainly do both.) I’ve repeated over and over again how integral seeks to include all stages of development, but govern from the highest stage available.

The problem as I see it (notice the 1st-person!) is that a) you seem to believe that including anything that is not strictly limited to your own conservative ideology should therefore be rejected by integral, and b) you seem to think anything to the left of Stephen Miller represents the “far left”. Support social programs? Far left. Think it’s a good idea for billionaires to pay more taxes? Far left. Think it’s possible for “individualism” to become pathological? Far left. Support renewable energies? Far left. I think this is why you continue to make what I see as caricatures and straw men out of what we actually believe, and the kinds of individual and social transformation we would like to see.

Again, these are all polarities, and it is our desire as integralists to make those polarities as healthy as we possibly can. As I’ve said many times in the past, I personally think we’ve swung too far left in the cultural sphere, and too far right in the economic sphere, and I believe we need to push the pendulum in the opposite direction in each of those domains.

“You might consider perhaps applying with the same verve and vigor “Integral” analyses of your favored positions, political parties, organizations, economic policies that you apply to positions you deem as “Lower Altitude” - but that’s completely up to you.”

We do that, very often. And of course, it’s also plugged into a larger historical context. I am rethinking my own preferred positions, parties, policies, etc. ALL THE TIME, and criticize them frequently. I talk all the time about those aspects of the left that drive me up the wall, and that may be exerting a toxic influence on our society. Yet you keep making statements like “you guys think Biden is so integral”, which as far as I can tell, is a claim none of us have ever made. This is where my perception of bad faith comes from.

Here are the challenges I think you might face. In its purest form, integral seeks to include both the left and the right. And we all are figuring out how to mesh with that framework from our own unique perspectives, political allegiances, and kosmic addresses. You need to find a way to be comfortable with that in your own way, without calling us “Maoists” every time we want to include a social program or two.

Integral also seeks to include the green altitude, while also placing guard rails around it so we can be protected from its worst excesses. Just as green seeks to put guard rails around orange, and orange around amber. However, much/most of conservative media is hostile to the green altitude altogether – largely because the left got there first, and staked it out. But as I keep saying, we need to see more green conservatism now more than ever. I think it would be a beautiful thing, a genuinely conservative approach to something like environmentalism that can accept the actual existential threats here, is willing to constrain the worst excesses of orange, and can carry it’s own Christian compassion, rooted in amber, to a genuinely world centric stage. Real “steward of the earth” type stuff.

We can have integral conservatives. But not if they don’t grow through green first. Because there is no skipping stages — there is no path to integral from amber/orange that skips green.

To the right, all they have is a hammer so everything is a nail. To the left, all they have is a screwdriver so everything is a screw. To an integralist, we just want as many tools in our belt as we can find, and to use the right tool for the right job.

And as members of this community, we all need to break out of the black and white tribal politics and find new ways to enfold multiple perspectives across multiple political typologies and spectrums.

Because when that doesn’t happen, it creates tension and then conflict and then lapses into sanctimonious insults and name-calling. And that drives people away. I think @LaWanna makes an exceptionally important point here — I’ve heard from multiple people who have said they prefer not to post in this space, because they do not have energy to deal with the dismissive or even hostile responses they think they will likely receive. The come and visit the community, and see all the accusations of people being “Maoist collectivist Stalin lovers”, and they are immediately exhausted and go somewhere else. Which is why I keep trying to remind you to be mindful of both the quantity and quality of your posts.

To put it crudely, this is a house that I built and manage, and you are my loudest and most active tenant. And I very much want to transcend and include your voice, in order to keep you in the house. But if it’s actively driving people away from the house, then I need to find ways to negate your voice in order to preserve the community. I’d much rather do so through conversation than through censorship, which is why we are having this discussion right now. I hope you take it all with the good will and good faith that I am actively extending to you.

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It’s funny, because when I look at both Robb’s response and my own, there was no “rebuffing” of perspectives. Robb invited criticism, and I basically tried to find an elegant way of saying “maybe try disagreeing without being a dick.” We put a ton of time, energy, and care into our contributions, and its frustrating when folks want to discard all of that effort because they don’t immediately agree with some of our conclusions. And, you know, we are big boys and girls, we can take it — we’ve been here long enough to know very well how much easier it is to tear someone else’s work down than it is to build your own work up — but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t get exhausting when our hard work is immediately waved away with a “LOL” or “pathetic”.

Will we defend our positions when they are criticized? Yes, especially if we think the criticism is coming from a faulty understanding of our position. But Integral people are tremendously comfortable with criticism, and use it as an opportunity to rethink those positions again and again. Because there is a gap between an integralist’s sense of personal identity, and the products of thought that they witness in their own minds. We can be very passionate while making our arguments, while also allowing those arguments permeable to criticism, in hopes that we can continue to up-level our views as we go.

Likewise was this necessary. Yes, you did review some of the references and also shared some before unbeknownst to me conservative philosophers. Since I’m not completely unread in the space, I was surprised with your “conservative” recommendation choices. I’ll have to review, but don’t remember the “not conservative” recommendations in the thread.

Honestly LaWanna, you’re trying to tell me how to communicate - seemingly I’m too direct, too male, too whatever - and you seemingly take this as indicators of “superior to others”. If you think I’m being “haughty” or “superior” or “mansplaining” why not just “let it flow on by into oblivion”?

Likewise when you head off on many topics and discussions that interest you, predominately I simply “let it flow right on by”. And I’m actually happy you’re having the discussions you want to have. Have at it!

It “seems to me” that both you and Corey love to have “rough around the edges” Ray act as your “point of spear”, then pile on when I “throw and elbow”. My very first post on IL was someone trying to get Ray banned for abusive language. Not trying to make this about someone else, but how about we each simply engage respectfully on topics we are each interested in?

Is this what you were looking for?

Again, I would invite you to take a look at your own role in this dynamic. Which isn’t to say that you are responsible for the lack of activity in this space — that has more to do with the fact that most people are having these conversations in places like Facebook and Discord. And even though it is much quieter here, I very much prefer this space to those platforms :slight_smile:

Yes, exactly what I am asking for. Which is why I tried to identify the patterns that I believe I see you engaging in that is preventing this respectful engagement from occurring.

Also, one of the things that is occurring to me right now — I notice that conversations about interior realities generate much more mutual agreement, while conversations about exterior realities generate much more argument. I think that is largely due to the sorts of muscles that Ken helped the rest of us develop, and the sorts of role models we have for either side of this discussion. We’ve all used the integral framework while doing the inner work, and have largely all had similar experiences while doing so, which makes it much easier for us to find shared reality together. We all access the same stages, the same states, the same shadows, etc. We can see that we are all occupying the same inner territories, at least in terms of the deep structures, while the surface structures may vary from individual to individual.

And while Ken and others have also given us plenty of frameworks to help us make better sense of our exterior realities, we are not nearly as practiced in applying those frameworks to the real world, and have largely been left to our own devices when it comes to navigating the top-down corporate propaganda, ideological propaganda, and state propaganda, not to mention the bottom-up lunacy that comes with social media. Those are muscles that we are still developing, and learning how to develop together, so that we can find more shared reality together. And I can genuinely say that all of my interactions with you in this space, as well as with others, have been in service to that slowly-emerging mutual understanding.

We have tons of courses and training programs to help people develop their inner lives. Maybe we need to develop some sort of “How To Git Gud At Integral Politics” training as well, so we can begin to scaffold this a bit more robustly, beyond these back and forth conversations.

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All types of exterior realties, not just politics, could benefit from this type of training. It’s easier to accept the subjectivity of the interior. I think this is a great idea!

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“We are going to have to find ways to recognize and respect the rights of each other and of the community, and these rights cannot be found in objective matter, nor are they simply a case of my own individual sincerity, nor are they a matter of functionally fitting together empirical events: they are rather a matter of fitting our minds together in an intersubjective space that allows each of us to recognize and respect the other. Not necessarily agree with each other, but recognize each other—the opposite of which, put simply, is war.

We are interested, that is, not only in the truth, not simply in truthfulness, and not merely in functional fit: we are interested in justness, rightness, goodness, and fairness.”

—Ken Wilber

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Thank you @corey-devos I certainly agree. Curios does Ken ever participate in any of these conversations?

I was drawn here because of his explanations on spirituality. Ken’s input would certainly carry a lot of weight here.

I would love to read more on the spiritual aspects of things … perhaps such discussions would positively affect our interactions with one-another here?

Brief interlude to Externalities and thread topic… could this be part of the CAUSE or merely a symptom of division in US?

Seems MSM and NYT specifically is finally turning the corner a bit given the Delaware Grand Jury investigation on Hunter operating in conjuction with VP Biden in Ukraine, Russia, Afghanistan and China.

Not trying to control or tell you exactly how to communicate, but yes, trying to influence how you communicate.

Your directness, imo, is actually an asset, when its not laced with some of the other stuff we’ve been talking about in today’s and other posts.

Respectful conversation? Yes. I for one know you’re capable of it from those times you have exhibited it. The question is one of consistent willingness.

Wisdom in this.

Have we finally figured out what this thread is actually for?

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Possibly :slight_smile:

On that note, I just had a wonderful, fun, and fascinating 3 hour conversation with Stefan Schultz, a journalist from Spiegel, about an integral approach to journalism that you might enjoy. Be on the lookout for that over the next week or two!

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Hey this might help

https://youtu.be/jrE_RPNogG4

Thanks Bria.
Adding The Great Delusion to the reading list (not something I do lightly).
Very much aligns with AQAL.
Nationalism is the most powerful force on the planet today.
Living in a Liberal Democracy with fixation on individual rights is the best society for people to live in. We are blessed.
Liberal Hegemony as a foreign policy is not successful, even if best end state for humanity.
Realism in foreign policy is likely the realistic approach.

Edit: Doesn’t cover cost of inaction, but a beautiful segmentation on Internal Quadrant (you really really want to live in a Liberal Democracy) but exporting Liberal Democracy/Liberal Hegemony runs into a multitude of blocks, requiring Realism in foreign policy.in order to honor Self Determination. At least that’s my take on Mearschiemer’s viewpoint and message.

This is an excellent lecture to watch. MANY thanks for posting @Bria_OConnell .

Inaction. Gotcha. The sense of social justice is low, sense the understanding of society is so low. Almost impossible to get those who are three awake to see the fourth of society. But this crew has not aged well. The work has grown in Zak Stein’s work.

https://youtu.be/PZNDhdKekjg

Taking a very cursory look at Zak Stein he appears to be Metapsychology domain focused albeit at Consilience. Consilience Project has one of the best multisystematic approaches that perhaps will lay some rubber on the road over time.

Sowell is an Economist with 70 years experience and a journey from poor black man to Marxist to where he’s at now. Definitely he’s on a different branch than a SJ or Metapsych. In his discussion these would clearly land in the Unconstrained domain. Sowell clearly states he’s a Constrained adherent. I wouldn’t discount too easily someone with his exceptionally high level of output at the very highest levels in his fields.

Mearshiemer seems to be more Foreign affairs focused.

All 3 are I think focused on different domains. The answer to “what is the meaning of life” might require trying on many domain lenses.

Interesting casualty of the DNC communion.

Mass Ignorance or Biden/Harris Administration spreading disinformation? Would this be considered unhealthy MGM attacking or gaslighting MOM, MAM with disinformation? Is their an appropriate Integral solution?
With this level cognitive dissonance, is it possible to not have widespread mass feelings of meaning deficit, discord.
Is it necessary to implement economic policies that promote weakening of Liberal Democratic Capitalism in order to create conditions for a Great Reset in order to ascend?

Excerpt:

Are You Better Off Today Than A Year Ago? By 4-To-1, Americans Say ‘No’

The poll asked: “Generally speaking, is your family better off today than it was one year ago, worse off than it was one year ago, or about the same as it was a year ago?”

Fewer than one in five (20%) said they were “better off.” while more than twice that number — 42% — said they were “worse off.” Another 36% said they were “about the same.”

+Bloombergs recommendations on mitigating inflation from the New School for Social Research.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-03-13/inflation-stings-most-for-those-earning-under-300-000

Propaganda or Patriotism? Reference Dr. David Martin Phd. This is spreading around here in the Florida Red State. https://vimeo.com/684796543