Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

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#323

Agape. I love you Ray and feel your angst and thrashing about in life and spirituality. Together we grow.


#324

Education or Propaganda or disinformation?

Seems Change.org gave it an overt shot to cancel Thanksgiving for us. Further proof of Systemic Racism in America? Or simply a Marxist playbook tactic to destroy a secular national holiday that creates common bounds within our society?

Excerpt:
we live in a new era when the left sees nearly everything through the reductive lens of identity politics. It sees much of American history as a racist project that should be erased. This is the motivation of a petition campaign to censor the Pilgrim editorial.

The effort comes via Change.org, a website that calls itself “the world’s platform for change.” It mobilizes campaigns to promote progressive causes. The petition driver is Randy Kritkausky, an author who writes about Native Americans.


#325

Disinformation, Propaganda or English Education?


#326

Conservatives trying to ban Toni Morrison from schools — education or propaganda or disinformation?

It’s odd to me, to complain about censorship and “cancel culture” while engaging in blatant censorship and cancel culture.


#327

I’d say you really haven’t looked very hard then :wink: Do you actually watch or listen to the member discussions we put out every week?

Unless of course we are calling everything to the left of Ayn Rand “Marxism”, which I am sure you would agree would be a very silly thing to do.


#328

Seems Virginian’s think their Educational Apparat needed to be reeled in a bit so parents voted out the CRT candidate and in with someone they felt would listen. Isn’t that exactly how our Democracy is supposed to work?
If reading material causes undo angst, nightmares, distress in kids perhaps perhaps it should be reevaluated for age appropriateness.

Do you think it appropriate to expose our children to the worst atrocities of Sinaloa Cartel, Stalin, Mao, Che Guevara, Castro, Andrew Jackson, Civil War, WW I, WW II, Mexico, MS13, Khmer Rouge, Fentanyl, CCP/Xi Jinping in order for them to get an education? At what age would you consider it Integral to teach the horrors of really anything?

Aren’t you being a wee bit melodramatic equating this to “Cancel Culture”?

The New Republic isn’t biased at all…

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#329

I do tune in and keep waiting for a crumb :slight_smile:


#330

Well again, you must not be watching very carefully. Have you watched our Social Justice episode of The Ken Show? Have you read or watched his comments on Marxism? Have you heard him criticize woke identity politics in nearly every episode we do? Have you watched our discussion of the major and minor scales of integral political theory? It really seems to me that you will label any attempt whatsoever to understand, integrate, and regulate the collective dimensions as “marxism”.

As for the bias check, as I’ve said before, bias is fine as long as it isn’t extreme – what is most important is their High Factual Reporting score. We can more easily account for bias in our info terrain than we can straight up lies.


#331

100% yes. We should absolutely teach the horrors of human history to our students. Why shy away from our history? Because it makes us uncomfortable? Better to learn our history and all of its brutalities, while also learning about the long arc of moral and epistemic progress.

“If reading material causes undo angst, nightmares, distress in kids perhaps perhaps it should be reevaluated for age appropriateness.”

I am pretty sure it’s causing undo angst, nightmares, and distress for un/undereducated parents, not for the students.

If we have the expectation that young 18 year old adults can defend our civilization for us, then they should have the opportunity to be fully educated on what it is they are being called to defend, warts and all, by the time they reach the age of enlistment.

No, I do not think it is melodramatic to equate this with cancel culture. I mean, if the right is going to say Dr. Seuss was an example of cancel culture, while trying to remove one of America’s truly great authors from school curricula, then I’m going to point out the hypocrisy. Just like I call out the hypocrisy of the left when they engage in traditionally conservative strategies of censorship.

BTW, I also see the following as examples of conservative cancel culture:

  • calling for government censorship of CRT
  • kicking Liz Cheney out of the state GOP because she is unwilling to repeat the lies about a stolen election
  • Colin Kapernick
  • The Dixie Chicks
  • Boycotting Nascar
  • Burning Nikes
  • Burning Beatles albums
  • Burning witches

#332

Is Qanon burning witches again? Or are you just being melodramatic? :slight_smile:

As of today, we have a mostly sort of free market economy where you can spend your money where you want to spend it, for whatever reasons you want.

Yeah, Cheney has gotten herself into a political kerfuffle like politicians often do. I don’t think she’s cancelled, but she’s deviant enough from her party that they don’t want her representing them. She can easily switch party affiliations if she likes.

Kapernick was given 11 starting opportunities his last season AFTER his protests and recovery from 3 shoulder surgeries. He went W1-L10 fumbling 9 times. Was he “cancelled” or “cut”? Or just a pouting prima donna past his prime and milking the race huckster circuit for a bit of juice?

The massive government bureaucracies are eventually accountable for what they do, as slow as it might be. So the citizenry will provide their feedback via the ballot box - and possibly the courts. It’s a slow feedback process but I do believe the United States was founded on citizens having this feedback. It’s only in Socialist / Communist societies that Citizens are stripped of their input, influence, opinion, and power.

I would think an Integral approach would be to honor our citizens, their needs, and to incorporate into how they are “served” even if they are a lower development levels. Almost sounds inclusive. If the professionals in the swamp know what’s best, I think the citizens would cheer in support. If the swamp pro’s are off track, it’s not a big deal. They’ll just get some “feedback”. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work?


#333

Howard Dean’s yelp and Dan Quayle’s “potatoe” are political kerfuffles. Cheney got cancelled from her party because she won’t go along with the GOP’s bold-faced lie that the elections were stolen, an all-out assault on the legitimacy of our democratic elections, all in the name of amassing greater power. That’s not a “kerfuffle”, that is pure cynicism, opportunism, and political nihilism from one of our two major political parties.

And just because conservative efforts to cancel people aren’t always successful, doesn’t mean they don’t count. Conservatives (and Trump himself in some cases) tried to cancel Kapernic, Keurig, Nike, Gillette, the Dixie Chicks, and the Beatles. As far as I can tell, they only really succeeded with the Dixie Chicks.

“ I would think an Integral approach would be to honor our citizens, their needs, and to incorporate into how they are “served” even if they are a lower development levels.”

No one has ever said otherwise. An integral approach fully honors the dignity of the individual, and also the reality of systems. An integral approach recognizes both individual rights and collective responsibilities. An integral approach is capable of recognizing when unregulated systems produce suffering, and are capable of responding with any number of skillful interventions. An integral approach understands that “rational self-interest” is a developmental emergent, and not something human beings are born with. An integral approach recognizes the absurdity of claiming to be for “individual liberties” while cancelling women’s reproductive rights, calling for government censorship of CRT, banning Toni Morrison from schools, nakedly representing plutocratic interests, delegitimizing elections, hyper-aggressive gerrymandering, and engaging in regulatory capture that actively harms the public welfare (oh sorry — actively harms the health and happiness of the average individual. I don’t want to be called a commie pinko Marxist for saying something as plainly collectivist as “public welfare” :grin:).

An integral approach understands there are four quadrants, not just one or two, and that more complexity requires more development. And it is capable of engaging in political discussions without falling into the typical team-sports mindset, with all the straw men tactics that come with it.


#334

No, they are just waiting for the imminent return of JFK, JFK Jr, and Michael Jackson, all of whom faked their deaths and are waiting to re-emerge in public and reinstate Trump as president.

And if you think I made that up as a melodramatic joke, you would be 100% wrong.


#335

The Politik runs strong. Ms Cheney is still a Rep and even on Pelosi’s mock bipartisan committee with the good Citizen’s of Wyoming waiting to elect their next Representative. Will it be an election by will of the Citizenry or Cancellation by Populist Demand. Frame how you like. Narratives aside Rep Cheney will be available for speaking opportunities to Whoop it up. Lol. Really Corey? This is Civics 101 stuff and yes a minor kerfuffle in the grand scheme of history.

Au contrare amore` . Humans are born with the fire of humanity. The fire for truth and beauty. No civil servant or apparatchik needed for this spark. To control, command that is required for your collectivist apparatchik. How about we just keep riding out the world’s greatest expression of human collective, individual empowerment, greatest good the world has ever seen?
Or let’s Administer each human to conform to Corey, Fermented, Ken, Ray, Ecex, or Jim Bob’s vision? All we need is to disaggregate the Citizenry from the power structure, the decision making.
Yeah, thats a higher tier. Heck we can dust off Marcuse, Marx, or even Mao or Castro for our reworded tactics to disempower, erode from within all common bonds of society, common culture, common spirituality. Administrative state led by choice philosophers for the greater good. Deconstruct, disempower, rebuild. Greater good.

Your team seems clear. Subvert the Inner for the elite defined External Greater Good. Perhaps we can win Village of the Year again. :slight_smile:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425112/


#336

Yes, really. The GOP is really engaged in active warfare against reality by continuing to insist that the 2020 election was stolen, based on a series of lies that have been consistently debunked at every corner. And yet, GOP leaders make an example of Liz Cheney, of all people, because she won’t participate with the Big Lie. This is not “civics 101”, this is a major political party using deeply unethical means to consolidate power at any cost. If the left was doing anything even remotely similar, I don’t think we would hear the end of it. It is a shame that you appear unwilling or unable to criticize your “team” in a space like this that aims to encourage multi-perspectival discussion.

All I see is another straw man. Why do you insist on making a caricature of people’s views, and antagonizing them for what you say they believe? You keep offering a false choice, insisting that anything outside your own ideology is indistinguishable from your perceived boogeyman of “Marxism”.

What in your mind qualifies as “collectivist apparatchik”? Social safety nets? Public libraries? Refusing to ban books from our school system? Fire departments? Three letter bureaucracies like the FDA or the EPA? Seat belt laws? Or is it something truly scary and communist, like the socialized healthcare that every other modern capitalist nation in the world enjoys at a significantly lower cost per capita?

“Or let’s Administer each human to conform to Corey, Fermented, Ken, Ray, Ecex, or Jim Bob’s vision?”

I mean, isn’t that exactly what the Constitution is? Aren’t we enforcing standards of behavior that conform to the vision of the founding fathers? Should we revoke civil rights because a plurality of people in certain regions don’t like them? Isn’t Texas doing that to women by cancelling their reproductive rights at this very moment?


#337

I just wanted to point this out as an example of a straw man. I never said what you say I said. I never mentioned anything about “the fire of humanity” or “the fire for truth and beauty”. I said “rational self-interest is a developmental emergent”.

My eight year old had the fire of humanity, the fire for truth and beauty. So I agree with you. She does not, however, have the capacity to make decisions in her own rational self-interest.

And this is the crux of the problem. We are all born with self-interest. At first it is narcissistic self-interest. And then we develop an ethnocentric self-interest as we begin to feel safer around people who think or look like we do. And as we mature, we begin to include others in that sphere of self-interest, because our sense of self expands as we grow. We begin to understand that our social responsibilities and contracts are part of our self-interest, which is entirely rational. We even begin to understand that regarding others with compassion, even extending that compassion to all sentient beings, is also in our enlightened Self-interest. There is a different “self-interest” for every stage, and it gets wider and more inclusive and more moral with each stage. Egocentric to ethnocentric to worldcentric.

The founding fathers understood this, of course, which is why they made the “promoting the general welfare” central to the new governing system they created, anchored in orange rational ideals (as presented at the time).


#338

Corey, let’s not drop the most egregious example of Systemic Racism with the Cancelling of Kapernick.
So what would YOU do with a multimillion dollar player that sucks, and creates toxicity in the team and fan base. Which narrative do you choose? Which narrative would you continue to propagate? Crap QB that can’t get the job done or one more victimized multi millionaire SJW?

Ah, killing babies isn’t a “right” as defined by the US Constitution, yet. Only takes 75% of Congress to Amend the Constitution. And why so fatalistic? Texas will have to face the SCOTUS .and. Demented Joe’s DOJ. If killing babies is so clearly a “right” I’m sure Texas will be slapped into place.

We don’t need major overhaul by an intelligentsia Politikal class to do any of this. Dont we already have everything you’ve mentioned albeit not at the scale you might want… So why all the Existential Extinction Angst? Ah, you left out the Department of Spirituality.


#339

Who is saying Kapernick is the “most egregious example of systemic racism”? Are you being melodramatic?

Yes, Kapernick is a mediocre player. I mean, better than me, but yeah.

Also yes, Trump and conservatives did their best to “cancel” him, and to cancel his right to express himself on the field.

“ Ah, killing babies isn’t a “right” as defined by the US Constitution, yet.”

Fortunately, the vast and overwhelming majority of abortions take place long before the fetus can be considered a “baby”! And the only late-term abortions are for medical emergencies. So no one is killing babies. Are you being melodramatic?

“ We don’t need major overhaul by an intelligentsia Politikal class to do any of this. Dont we already have everything you’ve mentioned albeit not at the scale you might want… So why all the Existential Extinction Angst?”

I mean, people feel existential angst because of things like climate change, the collapse of the middle class, stagnant wages that cannot keep pace with rising cost of living, political parties who are actively lying to their constituents, global pandemics that are killing hundreds of thousands of people on this country — all deeply complex systemic problems that require worldcentric solutions an, in most cases, global collaborations.

All this in addition to other challenges this nation is facing, such as having a corrupt for-profit prison system with the most prisoners in the world, the highest rates of gun violence in the developed world, epidemic depression and suicide rates, corporate-controlled media silos, the rise of conspiracy cults like Qanon, and again, a major political party who is actively lying about the fundamental security of our democratic elections in effort to consolidate power.

And just as a reminder, the “stolen election” is fundamentally a Qanon conspiracy theory. The GOP is kicking out members who do not believe that conspiracy theory. Does that mean Qanon has successfully captured the GOP?

Do me a favor — write out a list of every totalitarian Marxist plot that you think integral thinkers support. Are we coming for your guns? Do we support open borders? Do we want to enforce language police to make sure everyone is using the correct pronouns? Do we want to give women the right to fourth term abortions? Are we preparing to seize the means of production?

Or are we simply advocating for more growth and awakening, more equal opportunities, more equitable inequities, and more safeguards against the plutocratic hijacking of our nation-state?


#340

So Kapernick sucks yet you’re still propagating that he’s been deplatformed by your Qanon conspiracy. Why not shift to the victimization of LeBron James? Lol
Just how long will you keep riding the Trump Train? You do realize Demented Joe is Prez now with Kackles, the least popular candidate the DNC has ever fielded, waiting to step up.
Seriously Corey, this is pure Left Wing political garbage you have as an underlying context.

Have you not been listening to 10M’s of people? Perhaps killing babies is not as much a settled question as you attempt to portray? Would someone at an Integral altitude attempt to gaslight 10M’s with this “its settled already” or perhaps attempt to sense, hear, understand, include even if their views differ from your own?

I’m still looking for an answer to how Integral Theory made the leap from great in my opinion historical map development to avant-garde socio-political prognostication predictor.

Instead of "critical theory"ing my “totalitarian Marxist plots that I think integral thinkers support”, how about instead of looking at what exists today to find whats Integral?

Seems the Integral community continues with an ongoing cataloging of everything that actually exists then casts as outdated, defunct, likely an Existential (as in Extinction) Threat and of course an impediment to the Integral Noosphere that’s been concocted.

Perhaps we could start with a cataloging of what exists and how it might be Integral? Perhaps along the lines of Thanks Giving, Gratitude for, Honoring of, and showing basic Respect that has enabled the current Progressive communities like Integral to spin their Noospheres?

I’ll start with perhaps what might seem a trite example that might be a basic example of a common thread within society that creates bonds within society. It’s football (and basketball) season right now. Let’s take a look at college football (university audience for the most part) and professional football (broad spectrum audience, typically location/region affiliations).

This week and next are most of the big “rivalry” games. Would you seen, as an example, 100,000 people in a single location cheering for their respective teams as Integral? Is there anything positive from an Integral perspective to have say 50,000 Michigan fans and 50,000 Ohio State fans cheering their teams much as their forefathers, friends, relatives have for about a Century? Do spectator sports provide anything of value? Should we keep, maintain, or support spectator sports?
Is there some human drive to cheer, support, build, train, execute with a goal to be the very best in the conference, nation, world? Is this a defunct, outdated concept that should we Critical Theory’ed out of existence? What would be lost if we eliminate systems for athletes, journalists, politicians, technologists, authors, philosophers and would this make us higher altitude on the Integral hierarchy?


#341

“So Kapernick sucks yet you’re still propagating that he’s been deplatformed by your Qanon conspiracy.”

Like I said, I was posting examples of the right (and Trump himself, along with Tucker, Hannity, etc.) engaging in cancel culture, along with numerous other examples. Again, it doesn’t matter whether or not it worked. It still happened. Cancel culture is the product of the Amber stage of development – if it makes us uncomfortable or goes against our way of thinking, we censor it. Like Toni Morrison.

“Just how long will you keep riding the Trump Train?”

As long as he is no longer a serious contender for 2024, and as long as the GOP continues to lie about the election results in order to delegitimize our elections and consolidate power.

“You do realize Demented Joe is Prez now with Kackles, the least popular candidate the DNC has ever fielded, waiting to step up. Seriously Corey, this is pure Left Wing political garbage you have as an underlying context.”

I love how these two sentences follow each other, without any drop of irony.

“Have you not been listening to 10M’s of people? Perhaps killing babies is not as much a settled question as you attempt to portray? Would someone at an Integral altitude attempt to gaslight 10M’s with this “its settled already” or perhaps attempt to sense, hear, understand, include even if their views differ from your own?”

The Roe vs. Wade status quo was the best possible compromise between all views at this time. Ken himself agrees with this view, for whatever that is worth to you. And Texas decided to rip it to shreds by turning to vigilantism, while the conservative-dominated court stood by and watched (conservative-dominated, despite the GOP winning only a single popular vote since 1992).

“I’m still looking for an answer to how Integral Theory made the leap from great in my opinion historical map development to avant-garde socio-political prognostication predictor.”

Straw man.

"Instead of “critical theory"ing my “totalitarian Marxist plots that I think integral thinkers support”, how about instead of looking at what exists today to find whats Integral?”

I mean, you constantly accuse myself, our contributors, and our community of being Marxist, Maoist, collectivists, authoritarians, etc. This is your opportunity to substantiate your claim.

But to answer your question, there’s not much Integral out there at the moment. It remains a very small “cognitive minority”. However, the larger teal discussion space is beginning to open up quite a bit, as we see in communities such as Rebel Wisdom and Meta-Modernism.

“Seems the Integral community continues with an ongoing cataloging of everything that actually exists then casts as outdated, defunct, likely an Existential (as in Extinction) Threat and of course an impediment to the Integral Noosphere that’s been concocted.”

Your perception is coming from a misreading of Integral. The “prime directive” of integral, as it were, is to “deliver the most depth to the most span” — which means helping people be healthy and happy wherever they happen to be, so that they can continue to naturally grow and awaken according to their own rhythm, rather than forcing people to grow or awaken. This is the compassionate side of the integral heart. However, this sort of developmental acceptance sits alongside an understanding that different stages are better equipped to manage different levels of complexity, and that managing complex problems often requires new ideas, new solutions, and new systems. This is the wisdom side of the integral heart, capable of discerning depth and creating skillfully appropriate interventions.

All of which means, Integral thinkers want a healthy and strong amber stage, capable of helping people cultivate a common identity and bond, populated by real-world communities such as churches, social clubs, YMCA’s, athletics, etc, with healthy amber values operating within these communities. We want this amber to regulate the unhealthy red excesses that inevitably occur within our society.

And Integral thinkers want a healthy and strong orange stage, guided by reason, capable of worldcentric values and universal ethics, driven by ambition and discovery and innovation. And these should also be populated by real world institutions – media, educational, economic, scientific, etc. We want this orange to regulate the unhealthy amber excesses that inevitably occur within our society.

And integral thinkers want healthy and strong green stage, helping us to differentiate objective reality from our social constructs, to recognize and address the many forms of historic and ongoing oppression, and to expand our sphere of self-interest to include animals and the environment itself. We want this green to regulate the unhealthy orange excesses that inevitably occur within our society.

And integral thinkers want healthy, strong, and vibrant teal/turquoise stage, guided by comprehensive meta-theoretical psycho-social-spiritual maps that can help us begin closing the gaps between all these previous stages, to reconcile multiple conflicting views and perspectives, and to possess the post-post-conventional wherewithal to discern the right kinds of solutions for the right kinds of problems. We want the fullest possible spectrum of human beings engaged in our society, each with its own natural path to fulfillment, and each with its own natural path to grow into the next stage. Sometimes this means maintaining and even safeguarding systems we already have. Sometimes this means improving those systems. Sometimes it means scrapping those systems and replacing them with something better, more effective, more humane, more sustainable, etc. But one thing remains true – we always want to govern from the highest possible stage.

“I’ll start with perhaps what might seem a trite example that might be a basic example of a common thread within society that creates bonds within society. It’s football (and basketball) season right now.”

Do you really think integral thinkers want to eliminate something like sports? There is a place for everything, both in the world and in ourselves. Sports are tremendously valuable to society, to growth, to health, and so forth. And, as we have talked about many times on this site, the field is one of the most common places for spiritual experiences to occur — though the athletes who are accessing these states usually don’t think of them in those terms.

“What would be lost if we eliminate systems for athletes, journalists, politicians, technologists, authors, philosophers and would this make us higher altitude on the Integral hierarchy?”

It would be devastating, of course. Which its why no integral thinker would ever advocate for something like that. Not only would it be injurious to particular stages of development, it would destroy the entire “conveyor belt” altogether, making later stages like integral all the more rare.

This is one of the things that drives me insane about the woke/CRT dismissal of Orange emergents such as objectivity, neutrality, etc. They aren’t just trying to fix the unhealthy surface structures and residues that came with Orange, which I would and do support. But they are also rejecting the fundamental deep structures of Orange. When unhealthy Green deconstructs Orange, there’s no way for people to get to Green any more, and everyone falls back to Amber (which, as it turns out, was largely responsible for the unhealthy Orange surface structures they wanted to fix in the first place). It becomes a self-cancelling ideology.

So yes, sports can stay. And it’s a great example — we demand that our sporting competitions are conducted fairly and that everyone is literally on a level playing field, and we invest a ton of resources to regulate the game accordingly. And so we should with our politics, our policing, our justice systems, our healthcare, our economy, etc.


#342

See if this makes any sense.
I see in your assessment above of the world a very high level of objectivity in mapping Integral Theory onto the world. Could the disconnect be that it’s a matter of prioritization of concerns or weighting of issues?
Perhaps the IT maps pixelate the real world and a more open lens might enable rising above the Progressive/Conservative paradigm?
I like your concept of a altitude conveyor belt. Should the government “enforce” this conveyor belt and who within our government would be qualified to do this?
Along the lines of your global problems requiring global thinking and global solutions, is it a strategy of efficacy or of convenience to start with the most developed societies on the planet to start social re-engineering with a enforced conveyor belt?

If I were to make a simple guess based upon real world results, wouldn’t the most developed societies also already the most effective developmental conveyor belts in place?