Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

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#343

“Could the disconnect be that it’s a matter of prioritization of concerns or weighting of issues?”

In my experience, the disconnect is more around the fact that we in integral land are explicitly trying include certain ideas that you do not want included. We say we want to fully include the polarity of individualism and the collective, and you accuse us of being Marxists. Which seems to come from an ideological resistance to a post-ideological discussion.

Every one of us will be attracted to particular issues and dysfunctions, depending on our kosmic address (how “grown up” we are across a number of developmental lines) and our life situation. Healthcare is a primary concern for me, because my daughter received a life-saving liver transplant when she was a baby, and I’ve seen so many families destroyed by our very poor systems of healthcare access. She was diagnosed a week after the ACA made “pre-existing conditions” a thing of the past, which would have guaranteed a lifetime of financial duress for her, and possible medical bankruptcy for us. So I am keenly aware of how even incremental systemic progress can have a massive impact upon families like mine, and resolve an incredible amount of suffering for folks who are already experiencing unimaginable fear and suffering.

So that is what I see when I apply my own political algorithms and personal experiences to the field of healthcare. When it comes to improving our systemic access to healthcare in the LR quadrant, I am a progressive.

But that does not necessarily apply to other issues. I am also a staunch 2A supporter. Hell, I am the guy who wants to reinstate the draft as a way to build new amber foundations, create a healthy national identity, and put citizen’s skin in the game. I want high schools to train kids how to use and respect firearms, which puts me in agreement with many conservatives.

I also want some degree of economic inequity. I understand that a healthy capitalist society is always going to have some degree of economic inequality, and that is actually preferred in order to drive innovation, reward achievement, and create a competitive marketplace of ideas. However, I do not see it as a false choice between “total marxist takeover of the economy” versus “total deregulation of the market”. I seek “more equitable inequities”, which means that yes, I should be able to talk about increasing tax rates for the rich and protecting society from corporate plutocratic interests without being labelled a “maoist”.

“Should the government “enforce” this conveyor belt and who within our government would be qualified to do this?”

I personally believe we need a system of decentralized regulators at a transnational level — a number of mutually-benefcial agreements between nations that allow the enforcement of basic guardrails to keep transnational corporations from extracting resources in any nation-state without some form of fair exchange. A transnational system that can help prevent the sort of regulatory capture we regularly see (more from the right than the left, but certainly happens on both sides). A transnational system that can help monitor and regulate free and fair elections within its constituent nation-states. A transnational system that can incentivize solutions for global problems such as climate change, which obviously cannot be addressed by any single nation-state alone. A transnational system that understands individual and cultural development, and is capable of communicating a given set of goals to any number of players. A transnational system with the economic teeth to impose sanctions and/or other correctional methods for bad actors, including alliance-based military interventions as a last resort.

Almost like an integral “guidance councilor” for developed and developing nations.

“If I were to make a simple guess based upon real world results, wouldn’t the most developed societies also already the most effective developmental conveyor belts in place?”

I think we can probably find different conveyor belts within different developed nations. Some nations figured out how to fix one particular belt, and some nations have figured out how to fix other belts. And what works in Portugal may not necessarily work in other nations. (Solutions for gun control that might work in New Zealand, for example, cannot work here in the U.S., even if the two nations have similar centers of gravity, and even if we are using the same moral reasoning for multiple different solutions.)

This is one reason why many progressives like to look at the Nordic countries for influence – because they have figured out aspects of their conveyor belt that we are still lacking in this country. Such as not charging patients $2500/month for insulin shots, as an example. Folks happily enact their social contract, which says they will exchange a significantly higher tax rate for a significantly higher quality of life (and should be noted, the additional taxes they pay for their health care are still lower than American spending within the for-profit insurance system we currently have.)

An integral view, I think, helps us render unto Caesar what is Caeser’s. Integral thinkers do not wish to eliminate for-profit incentives from society. However, an integral thinker might understand that some activities are best served with a profit motive, and other activities are not, and in fact in some situations the profit motive can create more suffering than it alleviates (for-profit prisons, for example).


#344

Where I think we disconnect is on increased Bureaucratic State authority, even moving past Federal to a Transnational State in your example. It seems most of your solutions sets require increasing State authority, scope, size and cost.
I do think it unrealistic, naive really to think that increasing the size, scope, power of the Bureaucratic State would reduce unfairness or corruption, but would simply shift from the corporate plutocratics to the Swamp Creatures which I assume would be much more Federalized and even Transnationalized. i.e. I think just as what we’ve seen with the Mean Green’s, I have no idea where you would dig up these paragon’s of virtue to administer the expanded apparat.

Can you see how Bureaucratic State expansion sounds a lot like the promises of Socialism and Communism? How would you propose minimizing corruption, influence peddling, waste and decline that all socialist experiments have lead too? Once entrenched how would the Citizenry maintain legal influence and control of the expanded State?

Is there any way you could sell the benefits or your proposals to a majority of American Citizens, such that we figure out how to implement?


#345

I don’t have “angst” - it’s more like the times I was in eastern Europe in seedy village pubs and one of the regulars “that guy” has had too much - with a variety of unfortunate interactions on the nightly. Maybe one interaction in particular was a drunkard who just took offense to the fact I was a Foreigner and said all kinds of rude things about myself and my local companions.
The parallel is this fetish you have with Marxism etc.
Who knows? maybe you are posting while drunk. That would explain a lot, lol.

Also I think the “thrashing around in life and spirituality” is probably more you, not me.

I really think you should look at this for yourself - why are YOU here? Not me - you. Whatever my motives are should not really have anything to do with why YOU are here. You are again spinning all of your attention away from yourself and onto another, in this case me.


#346

Yes, that is the ideological resistance I was speaking to. You seem committed to the Reagan-era conservative-libertarian myth that “government is your enemy” — the mantra of transnational plutocrats everywhere — which makes any post-ideological conversation impossible.

The transnational holon already exists. We already have a transnational economy, dominated by plutocrats who are hijacking nation-states all around the world. What we don’t have is any way to regulate it (which, by the way, is the primary source of “corruption and unfairness” in our bureaucratic systems). That requires governance, and that governance must be enforced at the same holonic level.

Human beings are social animals, and like all social animals, we self-organize. And we do it at multiple levels of scale, because we face different challenges at different levels of scale. Governing systems are one of the many critical products of that self-organization.

“Can you see how Bureaucratic State expansion sounds a lot like the promises of Socialism and Communism?”

No, because words like “socialism” and “communism” mean more than “government does stuff”. Was it socialism when Eisenhower created the U.S. highway system? How about when Trump gave hundreds of millions of dollars to farmers? Or was it only socialism when Obama implemented a conservative-based health care plan and eliminated pre-existing conditions from our health insurance system?

“How would you propose minimizing corruption, influence peddling, waste and decline”

By creating systems that can actually regulate the source of most corruption, influence peddling, etc. — the transnational plutocratic class that is engaging in regulatory capture in nation-states like ours so they can increase their profits and externalize their losses.

“would simply shift from the corporate plutocratics to the Swamp Creatures”

The “swamp” refers to how our politicians have been bought out by these very same plutocrats. Which was always funny — Trump using a phrase like “swamp creatures” while putting Scott Pruitt in charge of the EPA, and DeJoy in charge of the USPS.

It’s the old “the card says moops” strategy – when the left does something they are moors, but when the right does the very thing they criticizing, they’re moops.

“Is there any way you could sell the benefits or your proposals to a majority of American Citizens”

It’s a tough sell, because most American citizens cannot even see many of these global life conditions that we are all facing. The problems are literally over most of our heads. Climate change denial (a conservative industry) is still rampant among the electorate. Hell we are living in the middle of a pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, and millions across the world, and a plurality of the people simply do not care, or worse, believe it is an illuminati plot. But things like pandemics and climate change cannot be solved on the level of the individual, or the county, or the state, or the nation state. Global problems can only be met on a global level.

This how all of human history has unfolded, creating increasingly inclusive systems that pull more and more people together. We started out as small tribes, then created towns and villages together, then city-states, then nation states, then intentional alliances. Every one of these came with there own governing systems, and every one is an example of human beings doing what human beings do — self-organizing at increasing levels of scale as we began to face challenges at increasing levels of scale.

At this point in history we have challenges that are well beyond the scale of our current governing systems, and those challenges are the primary source of corruption in the governing systems we already have. We already live in a transnational world, now it’s time to regulate it.


#347

I consider, perhaps not correctly?, the Swamp to include both our elected officials but more importantly the career Administrators.

Do you think perhaps really asking and trying to include “most Americans” might help you further your political agendas (IT aside)? As more enlightened than the average Citizen, might there be more integral approaches, more inclusive approaches, less divisive approaches than “Hell we are living in the middle of a pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, and millions across the world, and a plurality of the people simply do not care, or worse, believe it is an illuminati plot. But things like pandemics and climate change cannot be solved on the level of the individual, or the county, or the state, or the nation state. Global problems can only be met on a global level.”

Let’s look at this statement:

  • plurality of people simply do not care, or worse, believe it is an illuminati plot.
    • I personally do not know of a single person that “does not care” or “is not concerned” about COVID19. LOL
  • I was going to call it Character Assassination, but it’s actually Character Genocide to cast 10M’s of people that do have suspicious, question of motivations regarding travel bans (which apparently are not Xenophobic or Racist this year), efficacy of masks, morbidity across age groups, and source of and initial communications regarding spread that were meet with social media shaming, shadow banning, outright banning early last year. Not much chance of bringing these morons into the Integral Theory umbrella regardless of their altitudes. You paint with a mighty brush.

Wow Corey - What are you going to do if the Perkins-Coie lawyer and Brookings Institute Russian expert actually rat out Obama’s FBI, DOJ, CIA as well as Hillary? Is that Qanon crazy talk to even consider or the system exposing and prosecuting egregious corruption?

Do you think the House in 2023 will be able to include Kamala Harris in the Impeachment Trial? Or will she skate based on the old Sgt Schultz “I know nothing” response?

Here’s a funny one to lighten up our heavy discussion. Hmm, wonder if they’ll each be worth more than Kapernick. Will Rittenhouse wait until Biden is out of office to take a bite out of all that Russian and Chinese graft? LOL


#348

I’ll be honest, it’s a bit frustrating when I spend time writing a long and thorough post to you with multiple points, and when you respond you seem to ignore most of what I said and try to pick whatever low-hanging nits you see.

“Do you think perhaps really asking and trying to include “most Americans” might help you further your political agendas (IT aside)?”

The goal should always be to educate the citizenry to be able to see these problems cognitively, to perceive them as threats against their expanded self-interest, and to create the political will to do something about it. However, the integral map reminds us why this is so difficult, because people seldom let go of their tightly-held beliefs regardless of the evidence presented. And if we run into the problem where 50% of the population believes 2+2= 4, and the other 50% believes 2+2 = 5, the solution is not to move forward with a compromise that says “2+2 = 4.5”.

“I personally do not know of a single person that “does not care” or “is not concerned” about COVID19. LOL”

Anecdotal, and I can easily cancel this out by saying I know several people who either do not care, or believe it is a conspiracy plot. I know people who are saying that viruses aren’t even real, who continue to believe the “Plandemic” conspiracy, who believe that germ theory is a false paradigm being foisted upon the people from on high. I know people who believe that common sense mask mandates are an attempt to strip away our freedoms (and will actually make you more sick) rather than a way to partially mitigate the rate of infection. I know people who have said that the vaccine will kill everyone who takes it within six months. I know people who endlessly repeat “99% survival rate” as if the death toll has been negligible. I know people who continue to say this is no worse than the flu.

These people are out there. Hell, they are in my own Facebook feed. And they are constellating themselves on social media, and they are exerting more influence than anyone ever imagined they would or could. And yes, sadly much/most of this has been politicized, which means the vast majority of people who are resisting masks and vaccines are on the right.

And we should be able to talk about the horrifying dysfunctions of the right, just as much as you want to talk about the horrifying dysfunctions of the left. I am capable of having both conversations — are you?

“Wow Corey - What are you going to do if the Perkins-Coie lawyer and Brookings Institute Russian expert actually rat out Obama’s FBI, DOJ, CIA as well as Hillary?”

I will follow the evidence wherever it leads. Kind of like how Hillary was completely exonerated from the constant bad faith Benghazi accusations, or how the bipartisan GOP-led Senate report verifyied that Russia did indeed interfere with the election, and did illegally receive sensitive polling data through Manafort.

I am not playing team sports. I certainly view the Obama administration as being at least 100% more capable, more competent, and more compassionate than the Trump administration, but that does not mean I’ve made Obama the core of my personality and identity, as so many MAGA-heads seem to have done. (It’s funny — as I am writing this, my wife came home from running errands, and told me she saw a truck driving around with a transparency on the window that made it look like Trump was in the driver seat. Pretty much the definition of a personality cult.)

Are there leaders in the Democratic Party who are corrupt? Absolutely, and I want them to face real consequences. Just like I do for the grifters, lobbyists, and oligarchs who have captured the GOP organization.

It’s a super easy trick — all we have to do is remember that our political philosophies and leanings are different than our political social holons, which are different than the views and beliefs of the electorate. I think people at an amber level view these three as being fused, people at an orange level can begin to differentiate them, and people at a green level begin to dissociate them. At the teal level we can see how each is separate-but-interrelated, and can begin moving from dissociation to integration.

As for your meme, it’s funny! And a little weird that the left didn’t put out similar memes after FOX, OANN, etc. completely belittled George Floyd once Chauvin lost the case. Probably because the left seems to enjoy fighting with one hand behind its back.


#349

The irony of this whole thread is that @excecutive’s original discussion to seriously discuss Education and propaganda has been hijacked by @FermentedAgave 's stream of propaganda or “gotcha” memes and stories. Thus showing on full display what a vortex of absurdity is now the norm for the new Trump fakenews Conservative Party.


#350

If so, could you get a little more specific on the comment below? Specific as in by-name?

So you see this but I’m surprised you aren’t a little more generous with the political Conservatives that don’t wear MAGA hats, don’t have portraits of Trump over their fireplace, don’t have Conferderate bumper stickers and don’t get all their information from FOX and OANN?
Are there conservatives capable at discerning between politics, politicians, issues, policies, economics, compassion, spirituality, might vs right, lega vs illegal, visionary vs real world choices, and actual options available in the real world today?

Since you’re comparing/contrasting two ex-Presidents’ administrations, how would you compare the Biden/Harris administration to Obama’s in the areas of competency, compassion, capability?

Are Biden/Harris these impartial Integral Sage’s you want to lead the country into a transnational nirvana?
If not, who might be possible Integral Leaders or perhaps what time frame do you thing would take for them to appear? 2028, 2032,…

BTW - Trump is an Ex President. If you search on your posts, you will notice that you and Ray are likely the only people that continue to mention Trump. If I didn’t know better, I would say he’s set up shop in your noggin.


#351

Cuomo. Wiener. Porteous. Fatah. Brown.

“So you see this but I’m surprised you aren’t a little more generous with the political Conservatives that don’t wear MAGA hats, don’t have portraits of Trump over their fireplace, don’t have Conferderate bumper stickers and don’t get all their information from FOX and OANN?”

I love those conservatives! As I’ve said, I have many good friends in this category – genuine worldcentric conservatives who may still have some allergies to the green stage, but are nonetheless rational and do not engage in politics-as-religion. And the best of them agree that the rest of the GOP is not doing nearly enough to keep their extremists from hijacking the party.

“Are there conservatives capable at discerning between politics, politicians, issues, policies, economics, compassion, spirituality, might vs right, lega vs illegal, visionary vs real world choices, and actual options available in the real world today?”

Of course they are! We find many of them in places like the “Intellectual Dark Web” or whatever umbrella they are using these days. The problem is, they have minimal real-world influence on the GOP as a social holon, or on the electorate. Far less than Qanon.

“Since you’re comparing/contrasting two ex-Presidents’ administrations, how would you compare the Biden/Harris administration to Obama’s in the areas of competency, compassion, capability?”

Way too early to tell, it’s only been a year. Infrastructure package was pretty significant, however, and I do my best to keep my metrics of success to the Lower Right quadrant, rather than the endless culture wars in the Lower Left.

'Are Biden/Harris these impartial Integral Sage’s you want to lead the country into a transnational nirvana?"

Biden/Harris are exit-orange at best. Biden spent the majority of his career swimming in the post-Reagan/Thatcher neoliberal waters, which continue to infuse his judgment and scaffold his views. A big improvement over the red/amber that was the Trump administration, but a far cry from the cutting-edge leadership we actually need.

“If you search on your posts, you will notice that you and Ray are likely the only people that continue to mention Trump. If I didn’t know better, I would say he’s set up shop in your noggin.”

He is also the presumptive nominee for 2024, still has multiple criminal investigations surrounding him, and still is the de facto leader of the political right. Plus, as I said, the entire GOP has taken the Qanon claim that the election was “stolen” and is even excommunicating staunch Republicans (Cheney, Katzinger, Romney, etc.) who refuse to repeat this lie. Which means that Qanon has effectively captured the GOP, doesn’t it?


#352

I thought I would share my prescription for the left. I’d be curious how much this resonates with you, @FermentedAgave.

My advise to democrats if they don’t want to get completely fucking wiped out next year:

  • Legalize marijuana. Seriously, this is the lowest hanging fruit in the country right now. Otherwise GOP will do it first, because they aren’t stupid and see the writing on the wall (and have positioned themselves to profit)

  • Drop the anti-gun crap. Embrace the right to self-defense, and encourage liberals to arm themselves. Also emphasize de-escalation tactics alongside gun training. Arm yourself with heat, and with heart (emotional intelligence).

  • Cancelling student debt is a losing issue, despite what the progressives say. Find ways to purchase and discharge medical debt instead.

  • Hammer home how much the infrastructure package will benefit all Americans, not just blue states or urban areas. Kitchen table issues.

  • I’d say to back off of CRT and allow other kinds of discussion to emerge, but that’s not gonna happen.

  • Reassert the need for nonviolent protest, and make an example of bad actors and violent protest-goers. The public has no appetite for violent protest, and even less appetite for violent response to nonviolent protest.


#353

If winning is of primary importance, Democrats need to actually do what they are being accused of doing and what Republicans are actually doing in fact and coordinate their media to hammer on specific propaganda according to a systematic and organized campaign.

It’s been an established fact for over a decade that FOX and the conservative media get “marching orders” on which topics to drill with nonstop coverage and exactly how to spin that topic. Every Conservative AM Radio host is reading the same lockstep script as FOX and other conservative media. As a result, every person who tunes in to any station has the same “script” and is “in tune” with the overall message. I can talk to a conservative in Los Angeles and a Conservative in New York and another in Alabama and they will all have the same exact messaging imprinted in their conversations.


#354

I’m actually of a mind that Republicans should win - it’s the fate the United States pretty much deserves at this point.
Crisis just might kick a large enough portion of the population out of complacency to actually fix problems.


#355

And here you remind me of this gem, attributed to Karl Rove:

The aide said that guys like me were ‘in what we call the reality-based community,’ which he defined as people who ‘believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.’ […] ‘That’s not the way the world really works anymore,’ he continued. ‘We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do’.

I think this mindset has become the central strategy of how the GOP conducts itself. Don’t like what we’re doing? Too bad, so sad, deal with it — and don’t worry we’ll give you something else to ponder and study and complain about tomorrow.

Don’t like that we stole a Supreme Court nomination so we could stack the courts? Too bad, deal with it.

Don’t like what happened with Jan 6? Too bad, deal with it.

Don’t like our obvious accomplishments with regulatory capture? Too bad, deal with it.

Don’t like that we are creating an alternate reality and convincing our electorate the election was stolen from Trump? Too bad, deal with it.

Always double down, never apologize. Pure red/amber leadership.


#356

What would you say are the most effective methods of addressing this? Here are some options that I have seen that vary widely in effectiveness, but usually with drawbacks

Ignore - Short term solution allows further undesirable behavior
Appease - Short term solution encourages undesirable behavior
Blame the self - “We don’t understand them so therefore we are at fault”.
Find a middle ground - The more extreme the position, the more you have to adjust your own ground. Absurdity “wins”
Find a commonality - Brings the subject "closer’, but in the long run ignores the actual problem
Attempt to reconcile - requires willingness of subject to accept accountability
Attempt to educate - requires a “learners mind” or it won’t work
Confront (line in sand) - requires lowering self to Amber
Confront (destroy) - requires lowering self to Red


#357

It’s a good wish list but many would see as weak salve compared to major issues. Sleepy/Kackles are much too weak to face the far Left anarchists in the party. Heck it’s been 9 months and both are already lame ducks. Pelosi is a also a lame duck. Schumer is neutered. Issue is all are too weak to face the mob they have unleashed.
Legalization might swing a point or two of Independents but would be seen as weak placation and basically unnecessary at national level.
DNC is HIGHLY attached to neutering 2A. They cannot budge on this. But even if they did no one would trust them for years.
Student debt erasure is an insult working Americans but it’s the loaves and wine the Roman’s tried to buy votes. I guess the Blue cities burning would be considered the entertainment and games.
Your narrative builders on the Right have been doing state by state break downs so not so sure touting the infrastructure bill would be a help.
Backing off CRT would be insufficient. You might be underestimating the Biden, DOJ, FBI overreach impact on public trust. Enforcing racism laws impartially would be a start.
Fire hose the garbage off the streets and it would be a start.

But these are all issues that will be swiftly handled in early 2023. Basically it’s too late for these minor nits to make a difference. They would all hurt the far Left base and there is no trust in Center any more
I would list the real concerns but of course things like inflation, borders, assault on 2A, promoting violence in our cities, military failures, bailing Blue states, and onslaught on fundamental US morals would sound like “talking points” to be argued about. DNC has destroyed any good will or benefit of the doubt they had pre election.


#358

This is kind of cute. There was ONLY FOX until what 12 months ago when tiny OANN popped up. Sure FOX was conspiring with themselves the whole time. This is hilarious. .


#359

I might as well enter the tussle with some random thoughts.

I watched a podcast in which an Integral post-progressive person who identified as center-left (or “meta-centric”) was in “crossfire” with an Integral person who identifies as progressive/leftist. They disagreed on many things, were sharply critical of each other’s camp, and yet, what stood out for me was how they both had the “benefit of the whole” in mind. That made for a pretty good integral conversation.

The post-progressive person identified unhealthy pre-integral (green) stage as “gumming up the works of the whole system” while the leftist person identified the orange rational stage as “gumming up the system.” (And LaWanna added in thought: how about those red/amber stages and their gummy games?) The leftist speaker was critical of the post-progressive for a lack of depth or immersion “in at least the spirit” of leftist theory, scholarship, ideology and tradition, in response to the post-progressive’s statement that “zooming out, versus granularity” was their modality. On and on, and so you see, @FermentedAgave, even Integral political progressives disagree with one another, AND YET, they both framed their comments in terms of “thinking of the whole.” Do you do that? They neither one presented as primarily interested in advancing their particular personal political ideology, or an ideology to benefit only their specific ‘group.’ With all due respect, can you say the same thing about yourself?

My observations of your comments at this site leads me to believe you are in essence, as you say, conservative–for instance, often times, you speak of not wanting things to change in certain areas, you want certain things to stay the same or you are wary of change happening too fast, or you want to preserve certain things, traditions. I can relate to that. I may not agree with you totally about what should stay the same and what should change, but I do relate to that basic general conservative idea around types of change and the speed of change.

With all due respect again, two ways in which I think you sabotage yourself and a particular intelligence you could bring to this site if you chose is that one, you do not offer any critique about your own “right-wing” political camp, and two, you have nothing positive to say about the “progressive” or leftist camp. This is in stark contrast to both @corey-devos and @raybennett who offer critique of both camps, and note the positives of both camps. This is in stark contrast to Ken Wilber’s statement that ‘nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time.’ Conservatives/Republicans are not smart enough to be wrong all the time, nor are Progressives/Democrats. It would show not only a generosity of spirit but a serious Integral engagement if you could align yourself with that statement. We all would have more expansive and fruitful and satisfying conversations.


#360

It’s been an established fact for over a decade that FOX and the conservative media get “marching orders” on which topics to drill with nonstop coverage and exactly how to spin that topic.


#361

Are you retarded? That’s my point. All the right wing media got and still get daily “marching orders” from the Kohen brothers.

Really - try to at least understand what you are saying before you say it.


#362

Thanks @LaWanna for the wonderfully consider and well thought out note.
I think you highlight something that is perhaps the fundamental difference and division today in the “Culture War” between Left and Right. The Left argues among themselves on how fast, how radical, how rapid the Bureaucratic State should expand into as many domains and quadrants of it’s Citizens lives as can be defined. From Exterior’s where we can see and measure actual actions in the real world. Exterior Collectives might include destructive/violent gatherings, looting, arson, or shouting speakers off the stage, materially treating certain races or genders differently. Exterior Individual might be doing nothing to provoke others, theft, assault, or handing out warm socks to homeless. Again key here are actions in the external or physical world.
Where we see the significant Culture War divide, I think, is the Left wants re-engineer into society and individual Interior Quadrants based on desired outcomes as defined by, well the Left. What seems an extremely “young” viewpoint is that virtually everything in the world that we (all of us) have conceptualized, developed, built, utilized, optimized, changes, destroyed, are adapting is viewed as perhaps not outright evil and oppressive, but perhaps restrictive or misguided and at the very least “Not Progressive Enough”. This circles back to the Progressive’s arguing with each other about “Not Progressive Enough”.
Your example that the Far Leftist argues for real world action (in the extreme perhaps revolution, anarchy), meanwhile the Meta Progressive wants to take a 100,000 ft view might simply be the difference between the hands-on “do-er” vs the academic "thinker"s of the world.
But the focus is still the same overall - the world they both live in “needs to be fixed and fixed yesterday”. So now let’s figure out if we fix it with fire bombs or influencing the academy? Do we drive through parades or burrow ourselves into K-12 education in order to create the change that must happen?

Now let’s look at the “Right”, which now seems to be anything that actually exists. Were mistakes made in the world? Absolutely. We can go through the faults of the US, which we “know” needs massive changes and fast. Slavery, Right for all to Vote, Women’s Rights, Abortions, Free Medical Care, UBI, banning all Religion from schools, Public Education, Free Healthcare, Open Borders, Free School Lunch Programs, could have all been implemented at the founding of the United States. My point for pointing on the absurd is that this Leftist “coulda, woulda, shoulda” hindsight is, well, intellectually absurd.

Should we look at some of the Progressive programs that have condemned 10M’s of Americans to lesser lives than they could be living? Did those Social Welfare programs help destroy African American families? When these programs were instituted 50 years ago, 23% of African American babies were born out of wedlock. Now 72% are born to single mothers. But hey, let’s promote “abortion as a right” so systematically we can veneer over the underlying root cause of a large segment of our populations systemic problems by diving into genocide.
So before the Trigger Responses go off - no, I’m not saying everyone must get married in a church or only a woman and a man can get married - but at some point shouldn’t we WANT the best for our children. And by we I mean We the People for Our babies, for OUR children. Is it good to “normalize” single parent parenting? Normalization of large segments of our population being pushed further into dependence upon shockingly self serving bureaucrats (increased scope = greater funding = more headcount = more Dir level positions = increased scope = greater funding…).

And let’s get tactical for a minute - Do I think Gosar a crass moron for tweeting a cartoon of AOC getting cartoon killed just like all the cartoons we watched as kids or on the Swim Channel today? Yes. Am I outraged and demanding he be Impeached? No. Am I concerned that Candidate Biden implied that a defendant in a trial was a white supremecist? Absolutely. Is Trump a crass loud mouthed ass? Absolutely. Were his policies and effectiveness in line what what I wanted to see? Absolutely. Am I concerned that mainstream media, DNC, FBI/DOJ, Administrations and FB/Google collude to create the narratives which we are fed to the voting Citizens? Do I look outside in an attempt to discern and gather actual information beyond “internal quadrant” innuendo?

So here’s a sophomoric Integral critic of the Right. I think the US Right is Heavy Orange/Green with some Teal emerging. While EVERYONE has Amber/Red thoughts, the Right is taking very little Amber/Red action in the world. If these 10M’s of Qanon worshipers became active, there would be no doubt on their action. On a positive, the Right’s Orange component does “get shit done”.

Wail at the stars that it’s “unbridled nationalism” or “white supremacy”, but the Right has a very clear understanding that the US is the lead if not primary conveyor belt for human development on the ENTIRE PLANET. What the US does both at home and globally does “lead the world” for better or worse. Does the US wield an “abusive fist” across the global? Really? Compared to who? Compared to what? We already take in more immigrants that any other nation on the planet, send more money abroad than any other nation on the planet, educate more international students than any other nation on the planet, have more foreign born residents than any other nation on the planet. Sounds fairly “Green” to me.

Europe is enabled by the US. Middle East, Central Asia is held in check by US. China is countered from wholesale domination of Asian and Africa, only by the US.
Are the near-peer global competitors a better developmental conveyor belt for Integral Development in the world? The Left really considers an unconstrained China as “good for humanity”?
Norway and Sweden are examples oft referenced with combined populations and GDP’s equivalent to Pennsylvania, with economies dominated by international natural resources exports.
Let’s look at poor Liz Cheney or Mitt Romney’s victimizations by the RNC. How would this compare to the DNC sanctioned and sponsored attacks on Manchin or Sinema? How about the physical confrontations on Sinema by Far Left thugs, while filming themselves in a toilet? How about the physical confrontations on Rand Paul and his family, of course while filming themselves? Maxine Water’s public calls for physical harassment of any Republic that can be found on the street, while filming herself?

Do we not already sit in the best large scale society, economy, government in the world? Are we not already adapting, developing along an Integral conveyor belt that enables development of concepts such as Integral Theory? Is it rational to see half the nation as your “enemy”? Is it even possible for the Integral community to see past it’s self righteous judgement and condemnation that rivals religious zealotry? Coincidentally the dream of Integralists as “architects of humanity” seemingly justifies alienation of half the nation that is already making the US and rest of the world better for humanity?

If I were seeing perhaps the multi-systematic thinking “at another level” this “self appointing as architects of humanity” might be plausible. But sadly it’s not visible. The Left and particularly the Far Left’s fanaticism for Internal Quadrant control and seeming domination flies in the face of any sense of fairness, justice, and yes morality. Haven’t these Internal Quadrant control and enforcement experiments already been tried out? Not by existing Liberal Western Democracies, but by authoritarian Socialist, Communist or Fascist regimes bathed in Marxist rhetoric? Just how different is Neo Marxism, Post Post Modernism, Meta Marcuseianism that well Marxism, Modernism, Marcuseianism?

It’s never worked before, just how is the Integral Community going to insure the State Bureaucratic Apparatus doesn’t devolve into the Red/Amber’s they’ve always devolved into?

I do want to point out that KW almost always takes the “Observer” perspective. Sadly it seems his audience keeps narrowing further into Far Left circles. I do think IT has much to offer the world, as it has to me. How can we share with more, rather than a narrowing few?