Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

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#363

Correction - the US WAS in the lead. Some of damage done by the Trump administration on the international stage is irreversible, and Putin (who most Trump supporters also support) was successfully able to elevate himself above the United States Presidency in terms of influence and power.
This has been a trend of the past 20 years and just escalated exponentially after 2016.

This isn’t Liberalism speaking, by the way - I can put on my 1990’s conservative “hat” anytime I want. As a person who was far more conservative than liberal in 1990 (and even enjoyed listening to conservative talk radio / Rush Limbaugh, Drudge, etc.) - the extreme drop in power and influence that the US took on the world stage during the Trump administration is alarming.
My Liberal education points out that the US abused this power and influence when we did have it. This is compounded by my spiritual self that sees the concept of American Exceptionalism as just spiritually wrong. Non US Citizens are not less human than US citizens, and US citizens were just lucky to have been separated by an ocean from Hitler and stay out of the war until the US got their industry in a war mode. Modern Americans were just lucky in the cosmic throw of the dice to have been born in the US as a result of that lucky Ocean that prevented Hitler’s Panzers from Bitzkreiging across North America. As aside note, cross pollinating the games topic - anyone who’s played any WW III strategy sim just knows that the Atlantic Ocean is why the Allies won. Not any kind of exceptionalism. Just geography.

The summary of all this is that this idea that

Is pretty much mythology. “Best” begs the question “for whom?” I find Mainland cities the most unpleasant places I’ve lived. The quality and richness of life of your average US inhabitant is slightly below that of the average inhabitant of any other G-7 country. Those are just the facts we can back up by numbers. Growth in GDP is good for the few but irrelevant to the quality of life of 90% of the population. It’s only “best” if you ignore the “worst”.
The irony of the whole unfolding of the years 2012 to present is that the Conservative party has abandoned it’s core ideologies. Both the right and the left seek “Internal Quadrant Control”. What else is patriotic fervor and beating the “America is Great” drum except the very same demand for control and dominion that you ascribe to Liberals? The Trump Republican party seeks domination that “flies in the face of fairness, justice and yes morality” Trump is decidedly an authoritarian, which is a major reason why Republicans love him. The faults you find with Liberals are multiplied inside Trump Conservatives and will implement a new fascism.

There is no way to “assure” anything. It requires involvement of the population. If the population abandons their own ability to even think, then conservative or liberal are both just two flavors of the same Red / Amber shit sandwich.
This is wat you are not seeing - because you think that if you “beat” liberals (Slay the Dragon) - you will somehow be better. But defeating another group does not make you better. Might does not make right. Killing another person does not make you more honorable. Exploiting other weaker countries does not make Americans "exceptional’. A new Trump Authoritarian Dictatorship where police open fire on BLM protestors will not Make America Great.

I know I’m just talking to myself - not a single word will get through to you. I understood that way back in 2001 and started adjusting my life way back then. 2001 was when I first started to see where this conservative train was headed, and I have to say I’ve been generally correct. It all started with electing a C student, lol. I understand what will happens when 49% of the population is willing to adopt whatever morality is necessary to cheat the 51% and force them to accept Authoritarian Fascism. My planning to maintain international options for my progeny and not be stuck in whatever fascist madness will be forced onto the population by the “deplorable” 49% (actually a prophetic term by Hillary Clinton. I don’t think she knew how deplorable “your side” will become if they gain power again).


#364

I fear you missed my main points, Fermented Agave. I’ve read your post several times now, and have not seen a single positive statement about Democrats, progressives, the Left. Your only criticism of the Right was of Gosar and Trump, both of whom are low-hanging fruit.

You give me at least 3 substantive criticisms of the Right, and at least 5 substantive positive statements about the Left, and we’ll talk more :slightly_smiling_face:


#365

@FermentedAgave
Propaganda? or rational discussion?
Are you in denial, bargaining or anger stage of accepting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_American_Civil_War


#366

You’re confusing definitions.
Illegal Aliens are people in the US legally. They have no legal right to be here and are in violation of US law.
Residents are people legally residing in the US either permanently or temporarily
Citizens have all rights of the US, can vote, hold public office.
Native born Citizens can hold office of President.

Your confusing Existential Fear of Authoritarian Republican Rule with reality. Did state or federal open fire on Antifa or BLM over the last 3 years?
I agree that many US cities are wretched. I am very somber and disappointed with what’s happened to beloved Portland and San Francisco. Both cities I used to enjoy frequently.

We shouldn’t see gunfire as long as Antifa and BLM keep their arson, vandalism, theft, and violence limited to their current Blue stomping grounds. I feel for the Blue cities with the upcoming Darrel Brooks Systemically Racist “lynching” and the 2022 Election.

Too bad the DNC is a “package deal”. Teal Gurus (somewhere), vicious Greenies, apparently no Orange efficacy and the Raging Red mobs funded by Amber warlords.


#367

Please quote where I am confusing definitions.
Was it Supply Side Jesus? That was Corey.

Yes. Come on - do you even try to find facts?

Haha. You cannot contain an inferno after dumping gasoline on it. You guys are stockpiling gasoline as we speak. You yourself are contributing to this. I know you deny this even to yourself - but you are so unwilling to even listen to rational attempts at conversation with anyone you have labelled as “other” and you have completely ignored their main points - even when they point out that you missed them.

If there is a Trump win in 2024 - You can pretty well rest assured that 2020 will look like a birthday party. Antifa knows exactly how Trump will respond and police tactics are also easy for them to predict. It will be possible for Antifa to escalate the whole thing completely out of anyone’s ability to control - which is what they want. You conveniently ignore that the Right wing militias are completely unwilling to just let Blue Cities be Blue Cities. They have their own motives for escalating any violence, and it’s a fact that they did so in 2020. Vandalize businesses and blame someone else - that was the game Antifa and the Right were playing in 2020 and there’s no reason to suspect they won’t pick up where they left off. If you think the violence will remain in the city, you are fooling yourself.

The absurdity of you selectively mentioning only Darrel Brooks is an example of exactly what the problem is.

You actually are the problem. And now that we’re on this train of thought - you are pretty much the kind of person that keep me completely away from Christianity.
For you to conflate Darrel Brooks with any kind of Antifa, BLM or other liberal cause is frankly racist. He’s a criminal. Either choose to forgive him as your Jesus Christ would do or cut off his head or his penis or his hand or whatever corporal punishment like Moses would. But it has nothing to do with BLM or Antifa so I’m not sure why he has become a champion of the Right?

For me, too bad the United States is a package deal. If the Red States wanted a referendum to allow them to secede, I’d vote “yes” and let you all go on your merry way.


#368

I don’t understand. Are you suggesting that rioting Antifa/BLM thugs and arsonists that loot and destroy businesses and livelihoods and beat citizens within an inch of their lives are not criminals? Are you buying into the media spin that it’s all just “peaceful protest”? Civil disobedience - celebrated as the voice of the people when the left do it, breaking the law when it’s anyone else. Is that how this works?

Darrel Brooks is an expression of the Antifa/BLM culture that encourages violence and destruction peaceful protest. Of course Americans should brace themselves for more Darrel Brookses thanks to the toxic Antifa/BLM culture that has emerged. It’s their culture. It’s how they roll.


#369

Honestly I don’t have 5 substantive positive statements for the Far Left Progressives. What I do have is that perhaps the best contribution is a continued tempering of our main stream culture to at least think about socialist and authoritarian concepts. In the not so distant past I have to give the Far Left Progressives credit for shifting our culture to one of race-blind, sexuality-blind actions in the real world. Materially race or sexual proclivity has no more impact on societal interactions than height, accent, or hair styles. Taking this into CRT has taken this into a dominance sphere, but at least we’re much more “blind” than we were in the past.
Even Obama’s swing to “pro-active racism” I think has benefits. It aligns with helping build positive minority individuals by providing guaranteed career paths. Some of the DEI award recipients will remain healthy and contribute at a higher level, providing healthy role models, uplifting the communities further from generational inequities.

You might not see this as “good of everyone” thinking, but my greatest concern is that Integral Theory will be lost in the very near future due to having become synonymous with the Far Left. This might not be a fair equation, but when almost all active IT adherents are Far Left Progressives, IT can potentially be the baby thrown out in the bath water.
As someone that thinks Integral Theory has much more to offer than “yet another quasi-intellectual justification for Marxism/Neo-Marxism/Meta-Marxism” (might not be fair, but it fall easily into place) I would hate to see it lost in the vast sea of all the ideologies springing from Nihilism. Even of the Far Left ideologies, Integral Theory is already stagnant and shrinking. By becoming a political tool “against” mainstream society with it’s anti-Religion, anti-Markets, anti-Constitution positions at least as most people understand these to be, the stagnation and shrinking are very likely to accelerate in the near future. Think of it as whatever the Teal equivalent to Mean Greens refusing to see that the world does value multi-culturality, multi-religion, multi-lingual sticking with the “damn it, we must win” approach.

But that’s these are just my concerns however well substantive others may think them to be.


#370

This is the major disconnect with the Far Left Progressives. Maxine Water’s publicly telling everyone on national TV to “find those Trump supporters and get in their faces” has nothing to do with Antifa and BLM “finding Trump supporters and getting in their faces”.
Far Left Progressives funding District Attorney’s that drop charges (Cook County IL, St Louis, Across California, MSP, Baltimore,…) or funding bail for violent criminals has nothing to do with sustained increases in murders and violent crimes in these very same Blue Bastions of Progress.

@raybennett - Personally I don’t think the government should view any crimes as “hate crimes”. Prosecute based upon the actions and the evidence. If premeditation or conspiracy is based on race, charge according to premeditation and conspiracy as appropriate. I don’t care what bullshit reason someone might concoct regarding a murderer’s “Internal Quadrants” rational for committing crimes. But since the Far Left Progressives wield “Racially Motivated Hate Crime” as a poisoned spear tip, Darrell Brooks very likely should be the “trial of the century” of all Racially Motivated Hate Crime Trials. I’m sure the ACLU, NAACP, BLM, Antifa, DNC and of course Far Left Progressives will be very publicly front and center saying Mr. Brooks was a criminal that should be locked away forever.

Since the Far Left Progressives have now normalized “taking the fight to the streets”, I do think that we’re in for some serious “taking the fight to the streets” after the 2022 elections and after Mr. Brooks sentencing for 6 consecutive life sentences. (Wisconsin doesn’t have a death penalty.)

My assessment is that you and your BLM/Antifa mobs will “probably” be just fine as long as you keep the burning, theft, looting and violence in the Deep Blue cities like Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, and San Francisco. I wouldn’t assume that “taking the fight to the streets” would be received so well in Red cities/states. Also stay out of the residential communities and rural areas in all states. Everyone is armed to the teeth and sick of the regressive anarchist bullshit, even Democrats.

Here’s the quote from your article, “Our soldier fired three rounds from his rifle in response to a direct threat” from a vehicle that drove at a position held by local law enforcement supported by the Guard
Do you consider firing of 3 rounds to stop a “mostly peaceful” rioter from killing police and National Guard as “authoritarian take-over”?
Guess you’re all for Far Left Progressives to mow down humans as a form of “mostly peaceful protest”.


#371

Yes, I thought that was a stretch, too. Rationalization. Whatever isolated anecdote they can force-fit into their narrative. Progressives do it all the time, I don’t understand how they survive the cognitive dissonance without their heads exploding.


#372

Stop right there. He asked a direct question and I gave a direct answer. The rest is all just spin the two of you are inventing in your heads.
He asked “Did State or Federal open fire on Antfa or BLM in the past 3 years?”

I said - yes.
WTF did he ask the question if it made no sense? It was his question. I answered it.
It was NOT my position that I brought up. @FermentedAgave for some reason asked the question - WHY?
Fucking retards both of you.


#373

Ouch… Glad you’re in a compassionate mood this morning.


#374

I say he’s Christian - so therefore he is an expression of Christian culture that encourages violence and destruction.
He’s also an American - so therefore he is an expression of American culture that encourages violence and destruction.
He’s also black - which gets closer to the mark with your line of reasoning. If I reconstruct the logic here it goes something like this Black criminal = BLM = Antifa.

If we use the same logic this woman must be a white Supremacist:


This person, too must be a white supremacist

Do you see how absurd your logic is?

There have been dozens of incidents of all kinds of people plowing into crowds of people with their cars. It seemed to be “a thing” in Europe about 15 years ago and now it’s trending the US.


#375

I really have no idea who yo are talking to or what your actual point is in reference to me.
You have this whole circular debate running in your head that has nothing to do with my positions or what I am saying. You are just running a narrative.

Your suburbs are going to burn sooner or later - but who said Antifa or BLM is going to do it? Sure, they’ll be blamed for it. But you just have too many whackos with weapons looking for conflict with anyone with no stable logic or reasoning and any slightest provocation can set them off - and that’s a recipe for fucking disaster.


#376

@FermentedAgave
You think you are safe amongst all those heavily armed white men as FOX news pulls a bag ofer their heads and beats them into a frenzy?

Here are some facts for you:

Oh - here’s a fun map. Seems Blue Urban States are actually considerably safer if we actually look at the facts:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

Since we are doing memes today, here is mine:
5w8mbm


#377

Why would the suburbs burn sooner or later?
When have we had non Leftists burn anything?
What wackos are looking for conflicts with only slightest provocation? Has this happened outside the occasional lone actor?

Excepting of course the highly organized and well funded Antifa and BLM mobs.


#378

Here it is in pictures if you have a hard time with numbers and words:


#379

Dang Ray, NOW I see the light. BLM and Antfia have made the US SAFER! I would have never guessed.


#380

They have made it “more safer” than your crazy gun-toting Trumpland neighbors - that’s the point.
But even more to the point is that your entire storyline is debunked in three pictures and a crayon.


#381

When have we had non Leftists burn anything?

Or maybe this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot

Or this:

(Let’s keep in mind that both white supremacy and islamic fundamentalism are both right-wing.)

What wackos are looking for conflicts with only slightest provocation? Has this happened outside the occasional lone actor?

These two groups create each other.

Let’s not exaggerate the extremists on one side, and then minimize the extremists on your side. Otherwise it comes across like a disingenuous “the ends justify the means, I’ll accept this stuff as long as it means we don’t let the Marxist Maoist Socialist Pinkos into power”.

As for whether or not the BLM protests were violent — the vast majority of them were not, and the overwhelming majority of individuals who participated did not commit any crimes. And those who did commit crimes should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But every major protest movement in history has had its share of bad actors and opportunists, and every single time people try to use that violence to discredit and/or dismiss the message.


#382

What percentage of the Wittmer kidnapper leadership and funding team were working for and funded by the FBI? 6 of 12? 8 of 12? How much of the funding and equipment was supplied by the FBI? 100%?

Why wasn’t Ray Epps, lead instigator in the Capital Riot arrested, charged and tried?

As a 2A proponent wouldn’t you say carrying firearms is legal? How much burning and looting have the Proud Biys done? How many journalists have the Proud Boys beat into the hospital? How many security guards have the Proud Biys killed?
Who owned all the slaves? Yup it was the Democrats. Who abolished slavery? Yup it was the Republicans.
Who wants to judge a man by the color of his skin, not his character? Yup. It’s the Far Left Progressives.