Just popping my head into this thread to add that I value FA’s inputs, they stimulate thought and debate. Is he being a troll? I don’t think so, not at all. Sure, he does not appear to be following the Integral script to the letter, but then, I can’t say that I do, either. Integral theory is a useful and descriptive tool that provides a language for describing cultural categories. But it does not delve into the depths of phenomenological experience and epistemology, across culture and ecosystem, where meanings come from for both human and nonhuman animals (I’m alluding to my interest, that being semiotic/biosemiotic theory). I’ve been following Ken Wilber for some time, and while he has delved into the deeper issues, his nuances have not been infused into the wider cause.
I also enjoy following the unfolding bromance between Fermented and Ray 
But no, Fermented is not being a troll. He’s lobbing a couple of Molotov cocktails into the forum that compel the rest of us to think outside the box, and he’s doing so without malice. And I think that’s a good thing. It would pay Integral to regroup and re-assess the many forces, both from outside and from within, that threaten the Integral agenda. Indeed, it is the threats from within that would seem to be the more intractable.
Looking forward to jumping into conversation again, once I’ve gotten other time-consuming priorities out of the way.
What progressivism has devolved to has become a source of immense disappointment. I had expected better. As per my recent tweet regarding the Joe Rogan/ Neil Young/ Joni Mitchell squabble over Spotify:
Some of us suspected from the get-go that something wasn’t quite authentic with the hippy/ free-speech progressives chanting “make love not war”. How quickly their calls for peace and tolerance evaporate when confronted with beliefs that differ from their own.
To think, in a previous life as a progressive, I used to take these hypocrites seriously. Increasingly, I fear that there is little to salvage.
Hmmm … so let’s look at behavior rather than identity. Is he a Troll? - No
Does he consciously or subconsciously exhibit Trolling behavior? - Yes
But then, this isn’t even really the issue. Can an Integral community handle a bit of trolling every once in a while? Yes, of course it can.
The problem is that it isn’t just a bit of trolling, nor even throwing a few malpolov cocktails into a crowd.
It’s just the absolute and complete waste of time that it has become.
- The discussions have become circular and repetitive to a degree where I question his actual mental ability on a physical level now. He doesn’t read what people write, and completely ignores responses. Three options I come up with is that he is doing it intentionally (trolling), unconsciously (waking up nonexistent) or physically disadvantaged (dementia or similar).
- It’s freshman level. Seriously - if anyone loves these debates and topics they can sign up for Political Science 101 at their local community college. It’s tiring for me personally when people want to share some kind of “revelation” that I’ve already known and integrated in 1990.
- Zero solutions or putting forth any kind of workable idea of their own. So yeah, my mantra to my first wife was “Are you aware that complaining is not a solution?” I’m older now and can realize that complaining may be a cry out for empathy - but is that the work to be done in this space?
- Most importantly, it’s dragging every single discussion down. It’s impossible to discuss any other thing in here without it getting dragged into being a freshmen discussion that is “all about him”.
I think anyone who has ever been a teacher or workshop leader knows this archetype, and at some point if the individual prevents everyone else’s work from being done, you just have to kick them. You often get this dynamic when you open up some kind of free or almost free offer. The thing is with a Yoga class, you limit it to one session. Of for a gym membership you limit it to one week free pass and if they are not following the rules in these cases then you don’t offer them any other deals and they have to pay full price - which they don’t because they have no concept of the value being offered. But if you have a gym and let them have a $1 pass for free unlimited lifetime membership - yeah - you’ll have all kinds of people hanging out in your gym and no one will be able to use any equipment or get a workout.
I disagree that his posts stimulate thought, though they probably do stimulate emotions in many people that they don’t want to address. The thing is that I judge he is doing this completely unconsciously, and does not offer any direction out of the conflict at any level because he is completely led by whatever is in the conservative media news cycle. One day x is the problem and then the next day 1/x is the problem - the complete opposite. The only constant is conflict and being “against” people as a group, and no matter what one says or does, it will shift it’s position to be against whatever you develop into next.
What they have been for me is almost exclusively an exercise I have been observing in myself regarding this topic:
With my judgement that over 60% of the population is completely unable to use their brain at even the most rudimentary level, how do I navigate in this life in a way that is not what I judge to be Shadow Green, but instead how do I consciously interact in any level that will most expeditiously lead to 2nd tier? I personally believe that a bit of chaos is required. Some tearing apart of Green - but at the same time not looking at a lower tier for the solution, but instead just as a means or method to knock people out of whatever channels they are fixed in.
That’s a fun little projection there.
I have the analogy in my mind that everyone at some point discovers their parents are flawed human beings. Other people realize the ideologies that they were taught as children are flawed.
Unfortunately, when teenagers realize this about their parents - they often make even worse decisions. Their parents are stupid, so everything they ever said is wrong - and then we suddenly have a teenage drug addict.
Similarly, a little boy may discover Santa Cause and Christmas miracles are a lie and as a result become Mr. Scrooge, giving everyone a hearty Bah Humbug during the Christmas season.
So yes, progressivism, hippies, counterculture, LSD and “Make Peace not War” were all necessary for a period of time when the US was carpet bombing naked children with Napalm for essentially no sensible reason except fear they would become Communist. America also had to come to terms with the Hypocrisy of “Liberty and Justice for all” - (except Asians, Blacks and Hispanics). And a whole stream of other skeletons in the collective closet.
Yes, there are more skeletons in that closet to be dug out. It’s still actually pretty full and we’ve only seen the ones that fell out when we opened the door. We have yet to actually go into that closet as a society or shine a light into it. Whenever anyone tries, the others turn away or try to cover the light. “How dare black basketball players take a knee and express their opinion in front of me! I paid good money for tickets and don’t want to see anyone’s opinion about racism.” - and similar.
The Liberalism of the 1960’s to 1990’s had a purpose that had to be addressed sooner or later. Some of it needs to now change direction, but some of it has only scratched the surface.
An example is cancel culture, which is a shadow of Green that the right has fully embraced many times more than the left ever did, but also adds physical violence to the methods used by cancel culture. Liberals get people cancelled for things that really actually don’t matter to society in the big scheme of things. Is anyone really harmed if a millionaire actor makes fewer millions because they didn’t get a role in some blockbuster movie about Mutant superheroes - or whatever? No. But is cancel culture healthy - also no, particularly when violence is added into the mix.
Have you discovered that within yourself?
All the time, yes.
My post has to be 20 characters so I have to type a few more words.
Maybe talk less about defending your point of view and more about how your fixing yours?
Why would I do that here? As it is now, this is a terrible container for any kind of real self analysis.
Coincidentally, I made a reply to this post about 5 minutes before you mentioned me, lol
I read that and found it lacking in the overall topic of your assessment of @FermentedAgave … He is pretty much alone in his conservative opinions here. I for one do find his posts “… stimulate thought, though they probably do stimulate emotions in many people” I do see mostly emotional replies and rebuttals; rather that ignoring him perhaps some people here find him and his opinion as a threat?
Maybe some people do, sure.
You’d have to be kind of blind to believe I have ignored him.
I don’t even frame this in a Liberal vs Conservative framework. It’s unfortunate that some people are limited to that binary false choice.
As I said, this is a terrible container for self analysis, and you exactly show why.
The idea that you might think I actually care what you think of how I look inward towards myself is kind of funny to me.
I was engaging Brian in a discussion that I thought might be of mutual interest to the two of us. I don’t really care anything about your analysis of it. It was just a coincidence, that’s all.
To be honest, I don’t actually care what your opinion is on any subject really.
but back onto the topic of How to tell the difference between education and propaganda, we have this insightful gem:
Exposure of the Media collusion with Leftist/Democratic powers in order to sow disinformation isn’t really surprising but is seemingly going to lead to some level of accountability. CNN “set the standard” with 100Ms falling into lock step.
While the media/Leftist collusion itself is basic power dominance (and greed) seen with every Marxist/Fascist movement, how will the individuals caught up in the zealous attacks on their fellow citizens come to terms with their actions as individuals and collectively as a culture.
How can the Right ever forgive the domination and attempted destruction of our society? And what steps should be taken to insure this never happens again?
Continuing the same topic, from the right-leaning National Review:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/01/trump-admits-he-wanted-pence-to-overturn-the-election/
To echo Agave’s concerns, how can reasonable people ever forgive the domination and attempted overthrow of our democratic society? What steps should be taken to ensure this never happens again?
And this, of course, was the larger context for the violence of January 6th — the first non-peaceful transfer of power in modern American history — and what elevates it to “insurrection” instead of merely a riot. It was just one leg of the larger plan (conveniently summarized in the power point presentation they reviewed in the Oval Office on January 5th).
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Falsely claim the Democrats stole the election, and have your right wing media machine endlessly repeat those claims (remember, Sean Hannity and Lou Dobs actually took part in many official Oval Office meetings.).
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Flood the zone with bogus lawsuits based on these lies, knowing it will take many months for those cases to be heard and decided in court. (It’s not about winning the lawsuits, virtually all of which were dismissed; it’s about manufacturing consent.)
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Organize a public riot at the Capitol building based on false accusations of stolen election. This serves two purposes — disrupt/delay the final official tallying of electoral ballots, and create a false perception of legitimacy (again, manufacturing consent) for the final move:
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Make Vice President Pence reject official electors from certain states, and instead recognize the fake electors that Guiliani, Trump, and GOP officials illegally manufactured.
Fortunately, Pence consulted with Dan Quayle (of all people), who convinced Pence not to go along with Trump’s illegal scheme to overthrow the election. Pence himself said just a few days ago:
“President Trump is wrong, I had no right to overturn the election.”
And this, of course, is why the January 6 idiots were shouting “Hang Mike Pence” and constructing gallows with his name on them. Because the plan was falling apart without him. Pence was the only reason they were at the Capitol in the first place.
Thank God for Mike Pence. Hero of the nation?
A leftist meltdown of hypocrisy and scandal - Democrats exposed as rank hypocrites, grifters, not-so closeted Marxists
Since you don’t have a “mandate” to destroy the US as we know it, how about some common sense recommendations?
https://talbotspy.org/some-advice-for-my-fellow-democrats-by-al-from/
Beautiful projection.
The very fact that you need to come onto this forum and try to convince yourself (you aren’t convincing anyone else, lol) shows just how deeply you want to try and hide your own meltdown of hypocrisy from yourself.
You are a cognitive mess.
Here is some info that may address some of the issues you are having:
Facts vs Propaganda / Opinion:
Here are some facts
The Republican Party supports what was a criminal attempt to overturn a legal election.
It is a fact that 769 people have been charged with crimes for their involvement in this criminal activity, and the Republican Party supports them and also Trump’s many other extralegal activities, which are also documented fact that could take up several pages to post them all.
This isn’t “propaganda” - these crimes were investigated by an FBI after 4 years under Trumps control. In other words, this was “Trump’s FBI” who started these investigations. It was a month before Biden could even start to look at it.
Another fact - Trump is the defendant in 19 legal cases, at least half of which are his former associates (Republicans not Democrats). This isn’t propaganda, but the “Rule of Law” working as intended and as used by Trump himself over the years.
It is just factual that the people suing him had to have at least some reasonable basis for their lawsuits, or the courts would have thrown them out. Which, we have seen done with the completely baseless claims of Republicans over the election - thrown out of court due to complete lack of any evidence whatsoever and their frivolous nature.
Speaking of which, we have 8 close Trump associates arrested and / or convicted of crimes. Again, these are facts, not propaganda. Eight of Trumps closest associates and advisors were arrested and / or convicted of crimes.
Speaking of Associates, here are some more facts (not propaganda) about the sanctions Sydney Powel is facing for her complete incompetence as a lawyer in trying to overturn the election. These are actual cases going forward in a court of law, based on facts and evidence:
Then we have the fact that Guliani was so incompetent and grossly negligent in his attempt to do Trumps bidding that he had his license to practice law revoked. That’s a fact. Also fact is that Dominion is suing Guliani, Powel and Lindel. Again, in order to move forward Dominion had to have at least a reasonable basis upon which to stand - or they would have been tossed out or sanctioned for incompetence as Guliani and Powel were.
Here are some other Trump Bad actors who are facing legal action. Again - facts that establish a reasonable basis for lawsuits to continue.
Against all these actual fact-based legal cases, all this bullshit @FermentedAgave is projecting onto “leftists” as having a “meltdown” is so transparent I’m actually embarrassed for you.
Name three people in Biden’s administration or who closely advise him, who have been investigated or convicted of Federal Crimes. I have listed more than a dozen of Trumps closest advisors and people he even actually appointed to government office who have been actually convicted in courts of law. If you can find even 30% for Biden, you might actually have a point. I’d be impressed if you can even find one convicted criminal in Biden’s advisory circle, lol.