Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

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#61

@corey-devos
You’ve picked a survey that was written to explore topics that you “find alarming”. In the quest for Integral Balance, do you have survey results that might highlight concerns that the demographic you’re in existential conflict with might. Perhaps they’re your MOM or just OM or MGM or GM?

Perhaps we have a discussion on “scientific opinion survey’s” and whether they are informational/educational or propaganda?


#62

Your question is confusing me. What about the question “is the world run by satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global sex-trafficking operation” in any way “multisyllabic academic vernacular”?

Are you are claiming that 23% of Republican voters, after reading this VERY specific claim, simply didn’t know what the words “satanic” or “pedophile” or “sex-trafficking” meant, so they thought they were being asked about immigration (another multi-syllabic word they couldn’t possibly understand, right?) I can’t imagine that is what you are saying here.

And no, I absolutely have no issue with people with a 7th grade reading level. I just don’t want them running the country. Hell, my daughter is in 3rd grade, though she seems to tear right through multi-syllabic words without much problem. Fortunately, she does not know any of those three words, and it saddens me to know that she will someday.

"At any point in history, the political ideal is to let each stage be itself, and govern from the highest reasonably available at any given time.” —Ken Wilber

And again, the whole satan/pedophile/sex-trafficking thing is a central Qanon claim, and millions of Americans are in the Qanon rabbit hole. It is a pro-Trump conspiracy cult. It is 100% fueled by misinformation and propaganda. It’s actually the source of most misinformation and propaganda these days. It is an antmill, a death spiral, and I don’t think you can credibly get away with insisting that it doesn’t exist, or that it’s not exerting a significant influence on the right.

You made the claim that Qanon only exists in leftist media, and I showed you that not only do a plurality of Republican voters believe their specific claims, but we’ve even elected Qanon adherents into federal office.

And then you made the claim that “unhealthy nationalism” is another figment off the left’s imagination, and I showed you that an even larger plurality believe that as of right now, their love of the country may justify their need to inflict violence on other Americans. Plus, you know, January 6th, where many of these folks tried to have themselves a mild little insurrection at the Capitol. Yikes.

It’s odd that you seem unwilling to admit that extremism exists on the right, despite the evidence, while also talking about how antifa and BLM have burned down entire cities. You’ve moved your goalposts many times in this discussion, from “Qanon only exists in leftist media” to “okay but was that actually the question that was asked?” to “people couldn’t possibly know what that those big words mean” to “can we talk about how all polls are kinda BS?”.

Can’t we agree that there are dangerous idiots in every ideology, that misinformation and conspiracy theories are harmful, that wishing harm upon other Americans is wrong, and that reasonable/rational individuals of all persuasions have an obligation to fight back against the tides of literal medieval madness?

Get after amending the Constitution, then you can round up the 434M firearms in the US, implement your Parliamentarian form of government, and sleep like a baby.

See, this is when I know you’ve stopped talking to me, and started talking to a straw man caricature of me in your head. When did I say I wanted to amend the Constitution? When did I ever say I want to round up firearms? I am pretty sure I said a Constitutional convention would be a terrible idea, and made my own pro-2A views known.

And when did “if you’re so upset about something, just go out there and change the entire system yourself” ever become a valid response?

That is funny, though the meme was even funnier 10 years ago when it was Obama :slight_smile:


#63

Speaking of insurrections and propaganda, here were some doozies from the day:


#64

Is Qanon an actual organization with members? And if so, how large is their membership? Or is Qanon a “construct” or “label” used to objectify large swatch of the population? Or perhaps a small organization also used to label people not part of the group?


#65

Well it’s more of a belief system than a club with membership dues, so it’s tough to estimate. While trying to falsify my concerns I came across this great article, which looks across several different polls and shows there is a fairly wide gap between data sets, and answers your questions I think:

And the good news is, many believe that after January 6, the fever has slowly begun to break. Though I think that also has something to do with 8chan going down, and Q (Ron Watson) going silent in the months after Biden was inaugurated before eventually moving over to another of Ron Watson’s platforms. That, and Sidney Powell’s ongoing humiliation in the courts. Plus the fact that Trump was the central hero of the Q mythology, and none of their predictions that Trump would be vindicated and re-inaugurated ever came to pass.

And yet Qanon did result in the January 6th insurrection, and as the Q brand starts to decline, the conspiracy theories continue to thrive. The damage has been done, and continues to ripple.

It’s the closest I think our country has come in awhile to the sort of “mass delusion” you hear about in certain periods of history. And all of this began, because I was trying to use this as an example of “unhealthy nationalism”. Rather than having long discussions about whether this phenomenon existed (it did) or if it had any real-world implications (it did and does), I’d much rather come to an integral understanding of these sorts of “mass delusions” and the conditions that create them.

If you are genuinely interested in learning more about the origins and impact of Q, HBO has a fantastic multi-part documentary. It’s actually a very riveting story, and really exposes many of the fault lines of our postmodern digital lives.


#66

So Qanon doesn’t exist in an organizational form and stemmed from Trump’s 2020 election campaign and predicted election overturn. Qanon indicates “mass delusion” and “unhealthy nationalism” and Trump was the central “hero”.
It’s used by the Left as pejorative shorthand for the Right.

Hmmm…


#67

Curious do you think this is legitimate from the Catholic viewpoint or propaganda?


#68

I’m curious if either of you are willing to explore the other camp from the other-side? It might be fun and everyone reading this will learn a ton of new insights as we trust you both to be integral and honest.

@corey-devos you could expose and document why the Trump Dossier Conspiracy was a hoax?

@FermentedAgave you could expose and document why the Pizzagate Conspiracy was a hoax?

Perhaps if you would both research and flip the conversation to “steel man” the argument from the opposite side? Provide resource links that steel man the exact opposite of your left/right dichotomy?
This should advance your own understanding and will help the rest of us learn as we read the discussion?

I’m certain this will damper the discussion pretty quickly since you will both lose energy to engage as your polarity poles change. This would be highly interesting and engaging for the rest of us improving this platform and this dialog for sure. What do you say?

https://the-spiritual-quest.com/2017/12/11/assignment-to-expand-your-spiritual-comprehension-are-you-up-to-the-task/


#69

You have to pick the most absurd hoaxes to learn from? :slight_smile: Apparently I didn’t pay attention when Pizzagate made the rounds and had to look it up. I thought Clinton had Epstein and Maxwell to pick out his “little lovelies”.


#70

Absolutely there are some of the 1 Billion Catholics that believe this video as stated so for them completely “legitimate”. Just as I assume that their are some Freemasons looking to take over the world wearing goat’s heads and worshipping Satan. If nothing else, it’s an excellent “corner case” for one side or another to use in their existential battles against evil and oppression.

The idea of education vs propaganda is, I think, highly impacted by the “lens” through which we each view something. From a religious lens, an extreme fundamentalist Catholic lens in my estimation, this is simply “education”. From a humanist lens it would almost assuredly be seen as “propaganda”.


#71

You could propose different topics … it’s like the debate team from High school. Focusing on the debate rationality; void of the emotional attachment energies tied to personal beliefs. After you make your presentation you can then use probative questions of each other to further dive into the details from opposite sides? I would certainly love to see you guys explore things differently. I think it would be enlightening for all ~ Peace :slight_smile:


#72

I’m just glad I live in a state where people on both sides of the aisle are still able to differentiate between reality and absurdity.
I’m just thankful I live in a State where we can still discuss issues in a reasonable way.


#73

#74

A Classy move indeed … and yes you’re blessed to be in Hawaii Mr. Bennett where people are able to differentiate between reality and absurdity. Thanks for sharing this positive thing showing something good about this Republican Chairperson. :slight_smile:


#75

“One woman’s meta systemic perspective is another man’s conspiracy theory.” - anonymous

Thus the country the media loved to hate is reaping the best of all worlds: Few current cases and deaths, stronger economic growth than the lockdown countries, and its people never experienced the yoke of tyranny.


#76

Qanon’ers might be running with reports similar to this “misinformation”.


#77

@corey-devos
Can you see how the inflow across our southern border of “unaccompanied children” and now the direct importation from Afghanis married to “child brides” is so far outside Western norms as to be considered systematic pedophilia and sex trafficking by our current US culture? And do note that these practices are supported and promoted by our “current leaders”. Tagging as “Satanic” or “Qanon Conspiracy” just makes sure the interpretation of the results are not considered, but rather used as inflammatory sound bits.

As an example, many Republicans might love using the term “satanic” where as many perhaps would have preferred if that term were left out of the questionnaire. But you and I both know that when you take a survey, you don’t get to write the questions - only select one of the answers as written so you “select the answer that closest…”.

And in this case the “Propaganda” worked perfectly. On the Right, the Anti-Satanists got to answer the perfectly worded question and the Satanists in charge got to show how they are being oppressed by the Religious Right (you see what I did there, right?). It’s the similar to what you are doing with the Qanon labeling,

Lot’s to unpack here.
Do I think that there are extremists on both the Left AND the Right? Of course I do Corey. To say I think otherwise is simply not accurate. Do I think your assertion that it’s 23% of the Republican Party? That’s absurdity and you know it.
Do I think the Jan 6th was “the single greatest threat to American democracy and attempt to overthrow a legitimate transition of power” since 9/11? Of course not. You’re hyping a narrative that enables you to vilify the Right. My point about the 400M firearms in the US was to highlight that if the US people were really ready to “revolt”, it wouldn’t look like a masquerade party that had more FBI involved than “revolutionaries”.

I absolutely stand by your usage of Qanon as a label for all that you don’t like on the right. Qanon is NOT an organization. It’s not even a manifesto or credo that people on the right even know about. It’s a Leftist “dog whistle” narrative to vilify 10M’s of people that they disagree with. You and I both know that there is “no juice” in saying the Religious Right opposed child sex trafficking.

It’s not to say that 10M’s of those on the Right don’t think that child trafficking and sex slavery or industrializing aborting human fetuses isn’t “Satanic”. I tried to offer other non-religious terms like “twisted”, “really F’ing creepy”. But if you want to fixate on a Religious domain description, then that’s your prerogative. Just know that when you do this, YOU are creating the divide, not “integrating” across altitudes, levels, zones, cultures…

We already are locked in an existential Culture War that’s largely fought in the media and political domains. We do see significant legislative domain friction as well.
What do you mean by “fight back against”?

Sorry Corey, I didn’t communicate as clearly as I could have. Following your logic, if the Qanon Right which comprises 10M’s of people wanted to “overthrown” the government in violent revolution, it wouldn’t look like a “Made for MSNBC” costume party with as many FBI informants as revolutionaries wearing face paint.
You have clearly stated you want a Parliamentarian form of government. I’m pretty sure this will require amending the Constitution.


#78

Can you see how the inflow across our southern border of “unaccompanied children” and now the direct importation from Afghanis married to “child brides” is so far outside Western norms as to be considered systematic pedophilia and sex trafficking by our current US culture?

No. QAnon grew out of Pizzagate, and the claims of satanic pedophiles engaging in human trafficking are literal. It’s not a colorful metaphor for immigration. They accused Wayfair of shipping children in furniture.

Have you done any actual research about Qanon at all, and what they actually believe? They think the elite are forcefully extracting adrenochrome from children as a foundation of youth and literally eating human flesh. They also believe Trump as specially selected in order to overthrow the satanic elite (again, literal satanists). All of this originated in 8chan, and has been very well documented. Seriously, watch that HBO documentary, it is fascinating!

I am not labeling all conservatives as Qanon. I am saying there are a great deal of conservatives who believe Qanon. That is a big difference.

No, Qanon is not an organization. But neither is antifa. They are both belief systems, and we have elected leaders who subscribe to that belief system. I think the proliferation of conspiracy theories on the right over the last 5 years had been very well documented.

What do you mean by “fight back against”?

Resisting irrationality, superstition, and unfounded conspiracy theories.

You have clearly stated you want a Parliamentarian form of government. I’m pretty sure this will require amending the Constitution.

Nope, ranked choice would do it. There is nothing in the constitution that requires us to be a two party state, it’s just the result of the first past the post voting system.


#79

It seems perhaps both sides, including you Corey and you know better, pick and choose “Literal Interpretation” when it suits your “beliefs”. I’m very sure that there were people that stated “Wayfair of shipping children in furniture” and meant it literally. Perhaps a child or two were actually shipped in the cargo containers - I don’t know and don’t really care. I’m sure that someone literally said the Clintons are raping or grooming children in a pizza parlor.

Do you think it intellectually sound to cast this “Literal Interpretation” across 10M’s of people?

I’m doing my Qanon research now - and you’re providing much of the information - so thank you for this. I’m not familiar with adrenochrome or the conspiracy theories regarding the conspiracy theories. But let’s look at “extracting” or “eating flesh”, IF YOU CAN have a wee bit of flexibility when you invoke “Literal interpretation”.

If we can possibly step outside your “Literal” interpretation of those “Literal” people we might assume “eating babies” would be considered similar to fetal material monetization (eating flesh). Do you think monetization of fetal materials revenues should be shared with the Mother? The Father? Or should the Abortion Clinic retain all fetal revenues?
Coincidentally 97% of pregnant women that engage with Planned Parenthood have abortions and Planned Parenthood does “charge administrative fees” (sale is illegal, charging fees is legal) when “transferring fetal materials” to 3rd parties. Like it or no, it is systematic industrialization of human harvesting that coincidentally stops development of a living human being.

But Corey, you (and the Left) are doing EXACTLY this. Qanon is a Leftist conspiracy theory of a claimed Rightist conspiracy plot that’s a narrative using “Literal” interpretations when convenient to bludgeon home your claims of “irrationality, superstition, and unfounded” in order to discredit and denigrate 10M’s of people that you don’t agree with. It’s EXTREMELY divisive and purely political.


#80

Qanon is also an epicenter for the “stop the steal” movement, which the continue to believe despite having no evidence whatsoever, despite Sydney Powell and her “kraken” being absolutely humiliated by the courts, despite Giuliani knowing very well the election was not stolen (according to a released memo) and subsequently being banned by Fox News, despite the “Cyber Ninjas” partisan audit in Arizona which, by the looks of it, actually increased Biden’s victory (we’ll find out more later today, but scheduling a press release on Friday usually means there is no there there.)

And yet…

In fact, this poll suggest that 59% of Republicans consider “believing Trump won the election” is important to being a Republican.

What’s crazy is, the right has such an easy out here. The January 6 insurrection, where radicalized extremists were breaking through the doors and windows of the Capitol while beating cops with flagpoles, was committed by Q believers. All the GOP need to do is say “January 6 was committed by extremists and radicals who do not represent the Republican Party, and we want nothing whatsoever to do with Qanon.” But they won’t do that, because they know that would alienate a significant portion of their own voting base, so they are trying to thread the needle the best they can.

Meanwhile, disgraced general Michael Flynn is telling people Biden is going to put the Covid vaccine in salad dressing. Not exactly a firm handle on reality, over there.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/michael-flynn-claims-salad-dressing-is-being-infused-with-covid-vaccine