The thing that’s interesting about satire is how ineffective it is. Malcome Gladwell did a great piece on this in his Revisionist History podcast.
Revisionist History: The Satire Paradox on Apple Podcasts
Just because grooming is actually a serious issue and not something to manipulate for political gain.
Child Sexual Abuse | Sexual Abuse Prevention | Darkness to Light - Darkness to Light (d2l.org)
In the national conversation, it’s more than a conversation. We are also trying to get each other to take action in the elections. Talk is easy, but getting others to take actions they aren’t comfortable with is almost impossible. I view it as part oft he communication process and it does take time.
Stages as buckets is similar/same to my visualization as well. When I first studied Integral Theory 20 years ago, it appeared to me as a “mapping” theory from which to analyze society and culture. Very much similar to Piaget, Kohlberg, Ericsson by extending into the socio-cultural domain, as opposed to primarily psychology of the individual domains of the previously mentioned. While definitely a layman in these areas, this made sense.
I’ve checked in twice over the years into Integral Communities - in 2015/2016 and now - and have found Integral Theory seemingly almost exclusively used as a prediction framework for political goals, all on the Left. Currently the use of Integral Theory as a mapping framework is seemingly only used to further justification for political agendas. Until our discussion here, little more than cursory attention is given to the overwhelming Amber component of the Left and relatively minor component of Green. Given Integralism’s simple willingness to ignore this is what has prompted my questions on how Integralism finds, assesses, accepts, declines both self and external feedback.Our discussion here might be the most balanced of any I have been involved with on Integral Life.
If we look at “supporting without consideration” a predominately Amber (Regressive) movement swathed in Progressive robes, with an “onward and upward” hubris tarnishes Integrals intellectual credibility.
Your scenario around your daughter’s Trans friend is very similar to Jordan Peterson taking a stand to “mandated speech” launching him into the global spot light. I haven’t gone through this specific scenario at home, just the normal high intelligent young adult/teenagers testing for leverage literally everything they could. The “hear them”, “do what they want”, and “stop the bullshit” balancing act is tough even with a like minded supportive spouse. We covered the “no, it’s not abuse to enforce a curfew even though you’re 16.”, “no, it’s not oppressive that we don’t let you smoke weed in the house.”, to the “We know you know that you’re just being a little shit to get what you want. We love you and stop running your rackets on us. You’re still grounded. Do you want pizza, Mexican or Chinese for dinner?” And often I’m pretty sure we didn’t make the right call, or deliver the right direction perfectly or likely more often than not were just getting tested, pushed by someone that wanted what they wanted. With my teenagers it was pre-Peak Woke, so a little different flavor of massive external influences supporting immature young adults to caterwaul for what they wanted.
I have encountered the full on Systemic Woke/DEI Industrial Complex in Big Tech. The DEI/HR Industrial Complex enforces essentially a bullying/subjugation culture. The “protected classes” are very well defined and extremely well trained to identify any and all injustices. To preempt the usual "but what about Jim Crow/Slavery/Anti-LGBTQ+++/Anti-XYZ discussion, these injustices had nothing to do with discriminatory hiring practices, workplace discrimination, nor being passed over for promotions. It’s way down into detection of subtle “micro aggressions” of oppression based on things such as “well she asked a lot of questions about the data in my report” or “he wanted actual performance data on the new system. I felt untrusted.” All of which are basic “doing the job” questions in a high tech environment building extremely complex systems. It’s hard work and takes significant rigor, or the shit just doesn’t work in the end.
This DEI Industrial Complex essentially creates a caste system of Preferred and Worker classes. One caste is measured on performance, contribution to the organization. Meanwhile the other caste is promoted at an exponentially accelerated rate based solely on previous promotions or titles held.
Have we not already tried the “let’s let them try their new rules and roles and I’m sure it will work out”? Many think we’ve done this already across K-12, state social services, policing, judicial system, government agencies, big tech, big corp, media, social media and we’re witnessing the “fruits” of this “giving it a go”. So what now?
It has been widely reported that KBJ’s past judicial decisions around the kind of crimes you are referring to were in alignment with the decisions of other judges’ rulings on similar cases, according to legal experts who have reviewed the cases and decisions.
The “family of humanity” is not a new term. It has roots in religious history and is a concept embedded in both the Bible and the Koran (e.g. “the brotherhood of man”). It is a centuries-old metaphor for the relatedness and essential Oneness or Unity of all humans in their vast diversity that continues in use, for example:
“The Family of Man” was the name of a famous photo exhibition at NYC’s Museum of Modern Art in 1955. It exhibited 503 photos from 68 countries, with the term “the family of man” taken from a 1944 Carl Sandburg poem:
“There is dust alive
With dreams of the Republic
With dreams of the family of man
Flung wide on a shrinking globe…”
Another example (and there are many more): “One Human Family” has been the motto of the city of Key West, Florida for more than 20 years.
[quote=“FermentedAgave, post:1021, topic:22464”]
Senator Cotton was elected by the Citizens of Arkansas and then appointed to Judiciary Committee by RNC to move forward their respective agendas.
Last I checked, Harrison is an unelected DNC operative. Didn’t the last couple DNC chairs get fired for throwing primaries for Hillary or corrupting Presidential debates?
*The main thing I would say here is that I presented an opportunity, issued an invitation, opened a door for you and I to “get on the same page, side,” share a common view–that perhaps the subtle intentions of both Cotton and Harrison with their ignoble statements were similar. You did not walk through that door, but again went your own way, down the highly partisan path. How many invitations to the ‘Party of All of Us’ do you need?
That get-together of ‘all of us’ is less bunkered, with less hunkering in the corners cozy solely with one’s own tribe. But it is also more liberating, and actually more fun, to mix it up with friends and kin you’d forgotten you even had.
**Since we’re partying with the tunes of Pink Floyd, a toast to this one seems apropos: (and I only meant to post the “Us and Them” piece, but mistakes happen…)
Could be that the Rs on the Judiciary Committee are spreading disinformation when they quote statistics that have KBJ sentencing lengths 35% under national averages of both D and R appointees. But hey its water under the bridge. She’s on SCOTUS for life now and out Liberal Democracy learns, grows.
Absolutely agree with this. And also THANK YOU for the opportunity to jump on the same page. But situationally Florida is focused very very specificly on parent - child family relationships and even called the new bill Parental Rights. Should we honor this before frame shifting by Going Meta or Going Transcendant with definitonal shifts?
Everyone feels, to varying degrees (I’ll go one better) “part of and at One with the Great Cosmic Oneness”.
None the less, parents are pissed off there very young children are being “educated” on Intersectionality and Critical Race Theory.
Should we perhaps try a frame shift something maybe only 1 or 2 degrees removed from the discussion topic?
Maybe the Greeks would think of it as frame shifting from storge (parents love of family) to philautia (gay/Trans need for love of self)?
Perhaps we can frame shift from storge (family) to pragma (mature) first, then provide validation to support the LGBTQ+ community’s need for philautia (self love), then perhaps to Agape enveloping all of humanity. .
I don’t see any reason whatsoever why we can’t have it all. Parents can feel their storge is honored and enabled. LGBTQ+++ can receive the validation to develop philautia. And we can all enjoy and express Agape.
I don’t think we can get to shared Agape by ignoring the other loves or discounting others love needs.
Ah yes, the Woke in the workplace. I know how serious this issue is and I empathize on the struggle. But I do stand by the assessment that this is not a regression, but an evolution of amber. Christianity had a very long time to develop its amber foundation and it too made many mistakes. Mistakes that make the workplace woke look pretty tame in comparison. We need patience and skill here too. Wanting to vote this away just will not work. Evolution cannot be voted away, maybe blown up and real regression will occur, but let’s hope it doesn’t get to that
I have a friend who had this issue in such an intense way it almost destroyed the company. The way she managed it was brilliant and a lesson in true integral thinking. She manages a non-profit, very high profile, and the Woke decided to unionize. My friend did a great job of validating what was real concerns, like the reality that non-profits are filled with white women who have access to other income sources making the low pay, no benefits viable. Real enough. She did this while encouraging orange analysis like budget transparency that forced the Woke to deal with economic realities they were pushing against. There was also work with personal assessments both in the Woke and in the older management. There was awareness created that the older professional’s feelings were hurt by the criticism and the younger Woke were acting immaturely and needed to respect the experience in the workforce. It was a brutal process, but one that allowed for a lot of growth. It reminded me of the deliberately developmental organizational strategies. It’s a lot of work, yes. Better than a civil war.
I think this is how healthy development works. Validate and stabilize the stage while pushing upwards towards the next stage. It’s like there is a new amber intown, we need to get over that it’s happening or the fantasy that we can Trump it away. There is a lot of fruit to be gained, we just need to skillfully fertilize the good and prune out the bad.
I too love this conversation; it’s helping me understand a lot.
I think this is a really interesting frame right here, and I am going to chew on it for awhile.
It’s easy to criticize these segments of the left for not actually being “progressive” in the pluralistic sense. However, I like your invitation to not only embrace Amber, but to also see this as an evolution of that stage. Same deep structures shared with conservative amber, but with a whole new set of surface structures that are often “downsampled” from green-stage progressivism. An absolutist inclusivity, rather than absolutist exclusivity. An evolution of the amber stage itself — or at least a reasserting of “amber leftism” as an equal-but-opposite typology we would expect to see at that stage.
What I also like about this frame is it helps establish some basic guardrails, as history has shown us the most extreme examples of each of these typologies at this stage — Stalin on the left, and Hitler on the right.
I still think it’s somewhat dangerous when people make a sort of progressive “pre-trans fallacy” by holding these amber expressions as representative of progressivism as a whole, or consider this kind of amber progressivism as being the vanguard of leftism. Of course, all of right-wing media wants us to believe that the left is completely beholden to their amber extremists, just like all of left-wing media wants us to believe that the right is completely composed of Qanon MAGA Proud Boys. A more integral conversation, I think, can help us recognize the different ways these different parties have been influenced and sometimes even wagged by these amber factions, so we can find a way to include them, yes, while totally transcending them in a more worldcentric embrace.
A really interesting frame to sit with, thanks for voicing it Michelle!
It would be more accurate to say that Florida is focused very very specifically on SOME parent-child family relationships…
Again, it would be more accurate to say SOME parents are pissed off…because not all are. There is pushback against Florida’s efforts in these areas. Does Florida consider how disrespectful and stigmatizing it is to families with an LGBTQI member, whether child or parent? How disrespectful it is to some Black families to use a bastardization of CRT and hysterical-ize around that, at their expense?
If we’re going to Greek-out, then we have to include Thanatos, which is the “dying to” aspect so important in growing up, in development, in evolutionary movement. The way you have worded it, if I’m reading you right, it sounds like you’re saying the validation of the LGBTQ+ community is third in line, after the traditional family/traditional values and pragmatics. You may be right, and it may play out this way at least in Florida and a few other states, but it won’t be clear sailing everywhere; there will be pushback. The Department of Education, for instance, will evaluate whether new laws around these issues violate federal civil rights law.
A little Thanatos on the part of those holding purely traditional views in regard to these issues of sex, gender, race–a little dying to, letting go of the “us and them” frame of mind–would go a long ways in getting us closer to shared Agape.
As a society I don’t think Amber is the predominate or majority altitude today. If memory serves, we are solid Orange, minority Green, minority Amber in the Western world. I would consider instantiating Amber values and structures as Regressive for overall society, in the present.
I agree that we can’t just vote these issues away. If we can step out of the Power/Dominance Hierarchy paradigm for a moment, Liberal Democracies by definition utilize voting and elections as the language of communication. Liberal Democracies by definition are designed to mitigate dominance and force communication and consensus, while also enabling a functioning society. Long winded, but the distasteful reality is that politics is our language of policy development. Policy is our governance model. Administration is to insure the trains run ontime, the toilets flush and enemies don’t invade.
Comparing Christianity to Woke/Intersectionality I don’t see as a apples to apples comparison. Christianity was founded and developed during humanities Red/Amber transition, hence to oft cited Amber, Ethnocentric, Literal-Mythic criticism. Not trying to say that the Church didn’t do ugly stuff for egoistic reasons, but that really was the commonality of the day under an Amber sun.
The Western Enlightenment which birthed and nurtured Orange stage is from this same foundation. Fairly certain to say Integral Theory was born out of this foundation as well.
Sorry for the long form, but reality is voting IS how we communicate. It’s the action we give to implement our ideologies. And it’s really messy but so far it’s the best humanity has come up with.
Lol. No we can’t Trump it away, but we can reassess, reintegration, reevaluate, and grow.
Sadly as with your can’t Trump it away, I think of the discussion with the youngest when we took her car privileges away for smoking and drinking and driving. We told her, “we no longer have a car for you to drive nor auto insurance. If you want to drive you can make it happen.” Only days of tantrums and accusations of horrific oppression yielding no reaction, she came to the conclusion she could in fact do the right thing.
My company has also started measuring the Preferred Caste to more egalitarian standards and many are leaving for greener Intersectionality pastures… Titles are being stripped, grade level demotions are occurring, people are being encouraged to move on when they don’t meet the common standards. Will equibrium settle in to an almost pure meritocracy? Maybe, maybe not. After the abject horror of not getting lots of free stuff, eventually the tantrums will subside.
But just as our discussion on basketball, can you really run a team when a 5’2" woman who can’t score a basket is mandated to receive the same pay as LeBron James? Of course that would be a complete invalidating of LeBron James hard work and talent.
Cheers!
The beauty of both our courts and election system will sort it all out.
I suspect every Florida State elected official is up for reelection every 2 or 4 years. The Florida Liberal Democracy will decide.
Here’s a link to the 7 page bill if folks want to read.
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF
In this case storge or Parent Child is the focus for the FL Law. This law is not discriminating against anyone, but protecting ALL children and reaffirming ALL parents rights.
Again, I’ll point out that in our Safe Child trainings (generally available, not church based), having these now banned in Florida discussions would REQUIRE a call to 911. And it wouldn’t matter if it were 2 Mommy’s or Birds&Bees discussion, OR I might point out if the child was 17 years and 364 days of age.
I’m not sure why a State Employee should be exempt from basic child protection laws.
Hey @LaWanna
Are you implying that the Black families support CRT? What % of Black’s do you think will vote Pro-CRT in the upcoming election cycles?
I’m hearing several majority Black districts are leaning negative on CRT candidates.
I said “how disrespectful it is to some Black families…” I didn’t say or imply ‘all,’ and I have no idea what percentage would vote for candidates that support CRT, although I’m sure some would.
And by the way, Amber is the predominant stage of development in the U.S. Somewhere around 60% of the population is at Amber or lower stages with Amber itself probably at around at least 50%, with orange and green around 20-25% each, and Integral around 5-7%. These are figures based on the research of developmental theorists, figures which KW uses. Worldwide, the last figure I heard for Amber was 70%. So neither the world nor the U.S. is as of yet at a “solidly orange” stage. Hope this helps.
@FermentedAgave So yes, I read the 7-page bill. So let’s say a 2nd grader is being picked on by a classmate who happens to be a neighbor and knows the child has two mommies and is using that to try to humiliate the child, turn other kids against the child. So the teacher cannot discuss that specifically with the bullying child or the rest of the class, nor with the bullied child; the teacher can only address the behavior of bullying, but not the speech-content of the bullying. This to me does not seem protective of ALL children. This seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room that curious little minds want to know about. This seems rather stupid to me.
And yes, of course the teacher can say to kids questioning why does someone have two mommies: “ask your parents about it.” And so the kids do, and some (not all) of those parents scorn the two mommies and the child even more, and those kids with scorning parents return to the classroom and they too begin to pick on and try to humiliate the child. This is ridiculous, imo, and not protective of ALL children.
This is great. I love the way conservatives bring thing back to governing fundamentals. It’s a very important perspective and I do learn a lot from it. I think there can be a missing view on the way individuals develop and where the “center of gravity” is orange there is more amber happening than that center shows. Everyone starts at stage 1. But you are right that it is not apples to apples from the “original” development. It’s supplemental.
I think tantrums can be a symptom of selfishness and immaturity, for sure, but they can also be a symptom of trauma. I think the Woke process is helping our world differentiate the two. Establishing new rules that help us prevent trauma matters. I’m also happy to hear that the Woke army is not really winning the war, I do think there has been a bit of an overreaction to it all. Hopefully your company has also integrated some positive standards for how to listen to real transgressions while the differentiating between someone dealing with being told they need to learn more and someone being told, as I was, that my female mind wasn’t capable of doing the job. I just had to leave for more intersectional greener pastures 
Totally agree that pre-trans fallacy is everywhere, but I think we need to also see pre-trans process (not fallacy) as the process of widening early stages to support more development. I think this happened with the green/red pre-trans where 60’s culture reworked red in ways that opened it up to more horizontal development creating a wider base to support more vertical development.
I have been working with Stuart and I think what he is doing with purple (I am old school with colors) is phenomenal and has done more to open me to teal than anything else. I needed that horizontal widening of those base levels. It’s like teal has just snapped into place once I went down and developed my purple magic mind.
I think that is what is happening now with green/amber. It really can be beautiful if we allow it to be.
The reason I bring up how our Liberal Democracy works is that we have one of if not the most Liberal Adaptive Responsive Democracies humans have ever devised. The system is extremely well understood so when we see desires on how things should be, we could roll up our sleeves and get to work changing things.
And just to be clear, I was a Democrat until Clinton was elected, changed affiliation to Libertarian, then changed to Republican after the 2016 election. I didn’t voted Libertarian in 2016. I’m one of those Democrats that was abandoned by the DNC.
And yes, Lawanna corrected that we are more Amber than Orange or Green as a population.
Given where we are tho, it would seem that adoption of Orange, Green, Teal would be considered Progress and more Amber at best a slow down on development, possibly Regression of the mean.
Sorry to hear about your experience. You can sue if they discriminated against you and they likely settle without much fight. Lawyers are expensive and if they pay you, you won’t be able to sue again.
I don’t see this happening. What I do see is clarity on the Intersectionality DEI Industrial Complex agenda, motives and tactics.
Many think we’ve seen Peak Woke and Peak Intersectionality. Hopefully everyone can readjust to a morality sexuality, racial, gender, blind system.
You don’t see the current anti bullying rules, regulations and campaigns as addressing all bullying for all reasons?
I love this too. This gets to the heart of the conflicts that arise in process. I do love old school conservative approaches that want to limit what we regulate. The “dont say gay bill” is not old school conservativism to me. Why regulate this? We have anti bullying rules then we come in and regulate how teachers can apply them. Too much government. This bill itself makes no real sense, it’s just creating a kind of paranoia and confusion that would have to be worked out in courts. All of this just takes away from teachers doing their jobs and addressing bulling that interferes with education that is critical for the development of orange meritocracy.
This is where the new amber rules matter. If we want to move into a more orange meritocracy, then we must address the way bulling, micro aggressions, and all the ism’s interfere with it’s establishment. Widening the base of amber does this. Establishing new social rules that reflect the impact of continual emotional degradation on ones ability to just do their job allows everyone to get to that orange level. Conservative, please stop blocking development!
Add to that, this bill is directed to an age that developmentally needs things said simplistically. Generalized discussion are not effective with this age group. Another example, my daughter is black and was having issues with hair touching. It was interfering with her ability to learn. The teachers tried to address it with “keep your hands to yourself” approach. This didn’t work. Eventually the principal, who was black, came in and had a talk about black hair. That direct approach worked. If there was a “don’t say black bill” ughhh, why complicate all of this.
If the goal is to get to a orange meritocracy then why block amber development that will support it? To your point that this is a regression, it is hard to be forced backwards and have to learn new social rules. This conversation has helped sensitize me to how difficult that step is. There is natual resistance to the backwards move, even when it is serving forward progress. It’s a tricky dance step to take. Development is hard and learning is awkward. If we could actually become aware of the process, integral, then everything would work more smoothly.
We need conservative voices and we need to make more room for them. It’s an orientation I don’t have but truly value. We also need conservative voices to be sensitized to our voice. We are pointing to things that matter and more importantly are critical for creating the things you want, like meritocracy. If we can find ways to hear each other while pointing to where we need to grow, that’s integral. You make me step back and see where I, and liberals historically, overreach the role of government. Really, the Woke army is now addressing issues that traditional liberalism failed to address through governmental activism. That’s cancel culture. Orange failed (more accurately wasn’t the level needed to address hearts and mind), so they went amber/red, and guess what…it’s working, new social rules are being established. No one touches my daughters hair anymore 
These identifications represent people … how do we become blind to them? Isn’t this the very Identity Politics that Conservatives find so distasteful? We are all these things and every person identifies with something or with many things. If we could allow and accept for it all … would everyone not be validated?
If we validate everyone there is no need to argue there is only a need to fully understand each other. Understanding in on us … that requires listening and acknowledging, even where we disagree. The only limits to our own growing up are within us … the world is very complex and will never boil down to any one point of view … the collective oneness of it ALL is in the solace of understanding.
Understanding the whole of it eliminates the need to be arguing the different parts. The “answers are in the whole and the whole is in you.” Let’s all LISTEN to understand. Thankfully that’s what most people here are doing … Peace 
I think this is Corey’s Pre/Trans Fallacy argument as well. As I replied to LaWanna, I think the LGBTQIA+ community and rights proponents might want to consider if teaching 5-8 year olds LGBTQIA+ concepts is constructive for their efforts to advance society in their image. Personally I think going up against “concerned parents of very young children” is not a place to find validation in today’s world.
Interesting inquiry we have going on…
I think in our discussion here we might also be seeing conservative bias and progressive bias. Don’t know if these are “technical” terms, but what I’m sensing is that we are asking different questions, making different points, and are actually looking at different concerns.
The bubble over a conservative’s head might show “If the parent of a small child doesn’t want you to talk about gender fluidity to their kid, then of course we respect the parent’s wishes. It’s their child and as a parent they should be respected as the primary arbiter of the child’s moral formation.”
The bubble seemingly over a Progressive’s head might hold “Gender fluid people are people worthy of dignity and respect, so don’t try to make them feel less than. We need to change the values of society to be more inclusive and the earlier we change these in a child’s development the bigger impact we make on society.”
I’m reminded of when our in-laws are over with their kids. Our birth-giver-in-law is very strict on what her kids eat primarily since one of the daughters has some GI issues. So whenever we are having a meal we always show her everything we plan on serving, which we have menu’ed to honor her concerns, and ask if she’s ok with it. And she always responds with “of course, that looks great”. It’s basic respect for her role as the birth giver to her children.
Are the teachers in Florida this transparent with parents on the curriculum they are teaching their 4-8 year old kids? Should they be?
Yes yes yes! What are the mechanisms for both social growth and transparency? How do we work towards both social growth and social resiliency? How do we deal with differing moral values in a singular society? How do we recognize the kids facing greater challenges and offer the assistance they need without over burdening or ignoring those who don’t need the assistance? How do we do this while still making sure our kids can still add and read? How does all of this play out in real time?
These are really big issues and require complex and nuanced conversation and solutions. I have a friend who is sending her daughter to a catholic school for the softball team (I get this is not a public school, but the lessons still are helpful). The school had a mandatory pro life lecture. The parents were made aware of it and my friend sat down with her daughter before hand and discussed the families moral position on this. Teaching our kids and families how to navigate moral differences without needing to completely abstain seems healthy to me. Having an opportunity to really hear differing positions also seems healthy. Being exposed to difference shouldn’t be such a threat or make parents feel they are not arbitrating their child’s moral development. It does need to be handled right.
Discussions need to be age appropriate and standards need to be set. Same with sports, standards need to be established for trans players and handicaps need to be considered. I would prefer for sports and education boards and agencies to create these standards, not legislatures. They will require expertise.
Everyone wants what’s best for their kids and a part of that is learning how to live in a diverse society. Diversity also means for progressives how to learn to deal with traditional values. My daughter is bi-sexual and in the black community she faces the “you’re going to hell” a lot. I really focus on having her look at this from a cultural lens. There is a threshold there, she needs to live in a society where she is not being oppressed for this, but I try to help her see she is not being oppressed by their opinion. This is what’s key. The moment we try to legislate you’re going to hell so we will save you we cross a line. I also think the moment we legislate misgendering we cross a line.
I do support changing social norms around this. Intentionally misgendering someone is cruel so is telling someone they are going to hell and I am happy to live in a community where these social transgressions are treated as such. This is what we are accomplishing right now in amber is establishing new social norms. I can see where it’s hard for those who want to uphold the social norm that prevent trans existence…I get that group deserves dignity too, that’s why I want integral solutions…so everyone is unhappy 