Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

[FermentedAgave]

Descending will neither transform nor include. It’s just goes to a lower level. It separates. Amber cannot transform and include green lol.

How would you see say a Teal guru “bringing along” a Red or Amber or Orange or Teal community if not by “reaching down” to meet them where they are (Include), then bring them up (Transform) to the next level?

I think the plan with IL and other Integralists is these forums focus on the 1-3% (whatever the percentages) far left cognitive elite, with the expectation that each of the elite will take the message down into their “real” world. It could be you at the boxing gym or me at the supermarket, etc…
I think that’s how @Michelle is using “descension” but might be wrong. In either case I think its very much a fruitful discussion topic.

This statement seems clearly an attempt to create division, not investigate coming together, consensus, understanding.

What @Michelle has pointed out is what we all know - the Trump Republican party is not the best nor the brightest. It’s the benchwarmers to be honest. The primary trait needed now in the Republican party is loyalty to Trump and fear

And this seems like further weak deflection in order for you to protect and avoid looking at your own personal framing bias.

We see in the invasion of Ukraine the end result of fielding an army of benchwarmers whose primary qualification is loyalty and fear.

[raybennett]

@FermentedAgave
I’d like you to show me anywhere Ken writes that the Teal practitioner is somehow responsible for saving anyone from themselves.

Maybe @corey-devos might inform me?

The idea here seems to be: not just accept amber and let amber be amber, but to go along with it and somehow we can get to a Teal society by passing laws that bring society closer to amber?

[raybennett]

But to more directly address your question:

How would you see say a Teal guru “bringing along” a Red or Amber or Orange or Teal community if not by “reaching down” to meet them where they are (Include), then bring them up (Transform) to the next level?

First - establish an impenetrable “home base” of Tealness. This can be the individual, family, or a community. As I’ve said before, there are thousands of such communities.
Second - grow said communities and allow others to join. Make people “an offer they can’t refuse”. Make the community so awesome you always have ten times more applicants than you can accept.
Third - Learn from the mistakes of various hippy Green communities and keep an eye on legal issues as well as keep a lot of guns and other means of self defense. All altitudes, all quadrants. Nothing is off the table.
Fourth - Teach others to reproduce this community.

So you see, there is no need for anyone to lower themselves down to your level and beg, plead or convince you to come along in the way you want to be.
There’s a much stronger psychological motivation than appeasement, and that is when people feel they are missing out on something great. Nobody wants to miss the party. Everyone wants to be invited.
The solution you propose of making the party terrible so that somehow the terrible people will feel welcome and comfortable - that just doesn’t make sense.

“Coming together” is completely Green. And silly when the other side has no intention of doing so and wants to destroy you completely. That isn’t an exaggeration. In the topic we are discussing now - the populist conservatives want to completely eliminate all discussion of sexuality.

[FermentedAgave]

I’d like you to show me anywhere Ken writes that the Teal practitioner is somehow responsible for saving anyone from themselves.

So maybe Integralism is just “talk about, what if maybe” discussion group.

The idea here seems to be: not just accept amber and let amber be amber, but to go along with it and somehow we can get to a Teal society by passing laws that bring society closer to amber?

Agreed, but this invalidates what you’ve just said. I’m hearing your action plan as proselytization to influence voting as the action plan even if not to “save them from themselves”.

[corey-devos]

Of course conservatives see government as a vehicle for improving quality of like. Claiming otherwise is similar to the accusations that “conservatives aren’t caring” and the “they’re trying to dominate me”.

And yet, conservatives resisted extending rights to women, and then rights to blacks, and then rights to homosexuals, every step of the way. They want typically want to improve quality of life — for their own group, even if it’s at the expense of other groups. As we are seeing with this inhumane Florida bill.

I’d like you to show me anywhere Ken writes that the Teal practitioner is somehow responsible for saving anyone from themselves.

That is correct, Ray. The irony here, which I think you pointed to earlier, is that Integral is taking an inherently conservative position: transformation begins with the individual, within our interiors. We work on making ourselves better people — wake up, grow up, clean up, show up — and then using that to exert change on a local level. We criticize social transformation efforts that do not recognize and front load this inner development and awakening. Which, again, is why Ken says we need to allow everyone to exist wherever they are on the spiral, while governing from the highest stage available. Laws such as these emerge from broken amber, are explicitly ethnocentric (sorry, your group gets limited rights, I don’t care if you’re a “protected class”, we need to save our children from you). It is plainly regressive, and it hurts not only children, but entire communities as well.

Brother Tequila insist the gays are trying to “indoctrinate” our kids. But this is what indoctrination actually looks like. Be sure to read the entire thread, to see what happens when people defend accusing homosexuals of being “groomers”, as we see in this thread.

https://twitter.com/robbiepierce/status/1514127186214621185?s=21&t=bN1RL_WVWGYrHOC5LAJSjw

[raybennett]

So maybe Integralism is just “talk about, what if maybe” discussion group.

Well, this forum is. That’s what forums do - discuss. You can’t take action in a forum, lol.
but no - I’ve given an example in my next post. I understand I posted it while you were typing.

I’m hearing your action plan as proselytization to influence voting as the action plan even if not to “save them from themselves”.

You lost me here - You’ll have to break down for me who is proselytizing whom.

[corey-devos]

the Trump Republican party is not the best nor the brightest.

When the GOP sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

[FermentedAgave]

@corey-devos Nice use of your “Tip of the Spear” to load up the judgmental zeal. LOL

And yet, conservatives resisted extending rights to women, and then rights to blacks, and then rights to homosexuals, every step of the way. They want typically want to improve quality of life — for their own group, even if it’s at the expense of other groups. As we are seeing with this inhumane Florida bill.

LOADED with judgment and condemnation out of your personal framing. Almost religious in zeal You’re not really interested in cross frame bridging, right?

[FermentedAgave]

When the GOP sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

Whoa - Right to the condemnation. Love how concise and fact-free. Got references on any of this?

[corey-devos]

I am demonstrating why conservatism at the amber stage is detrimental to society. While also showing how conservatism as a typology is baked into integral from the beginning.

Sometimes in order to “transcend and include”, we need to “negate to preserve”. In this case, negating regressive policies coming out of broken amber conservatism in order to preserve to preserve the rights and dignities of all Americans.

[corey-devos]

It’s a Trump quote. I only changed one word. Do you find it more offensive when it’s aimed at your own group?

[corey-devos]

LOADED with judgment and condemnation out of your personal framing.

And yet, it’s true, conservatives resisted every one of these expansions of civil rights.

I don’t understand how you can make statements like this, after hundreds of comments calling the left (and us!) Marxist collectivist Maoist” whatevers, while defending “grooming” language targeted at homosexuals, saying they seek to “indoctrinate” kids, etc.

Integral needs to remain vigilant against regressive social movements, whether they are happening on the left or the right, and call them out for what they are. And it’s clear that what we are seeing with this kind of anti-gay legislation and rhetoric, as well as red states rushing to ban abortion even for rape victims and medical emergencies, is deeply regressive. To the point where we now have a new Underground Railroad forming in this country.

And besides, I differentiate between “conservatives” in general, who exist up and down the spiral, and the “GOP” as a social holon. I love worldcentric conservatives, as I’ve demonstrated many many times in this thread. My criticisms here are of the GOP.

Did you read that Twitter thread I posted above? Heartbreaking, what this “groomer” language is doing to ordinary loving families.

[FermentedAgave]

It’s a Trump quote. I only changed one word. Do you find it more offensive when it’s aimed at your own group?

Do you have any references to substantiate your accusations that conservatives are motivated by drugs, crime and rape in passing FL 1557?
Or are you just using Tip-of-the-Spear’s entree to incorporate “shit slinging” into the thread?

[FermentedAgave]

Sometimes in order to “transcend and include”, we need to “negate to preserve”. In this case, negating regressive policies coming out of broken amber conservatism in order to preserve to preserve the rights and dignities of all Americans.

So now teaching Gender Identity and Sexuality to 5 thru 8 year olds is “preserving”. I do admire your perseverance and determination. Do you think trying to gaslight 70% of the population will move the world towards your self defined noosphere?

[corey-devos]

It was a joke. I’m glad you caught it.

But if we want proof, I guess we just have to ask Madison Cawthorn about the cocaine and orgies that are apparently taking place on that side of the aisle That and all the Republicans who have been prosecuted for pedophilia and child porn. I can provide a list, if that’s helpful.

So now teaching Gender Identity and Sexuality to 5 thru 8 year olds is “preserving”.

Yep, it sure is! It’s preserving the rights and dignities of homosexual individuals and communities. It’s preserving the right of the family in that twitter thread from having their children stalked in public bathrooms and their family accosted. And preserving the kids own mental health, as well as preparing them for their pubescent years just around the corner (many girls these days are having their first menstruation at only 9 years old. Seems like a good time for some basic sex education to help them better understand their changing bodies.)

Allowing my kid’s best friend to talk about her two moms in class is ABSOLUTELY “preserving”. Do you really not see that?

And you’ve never answered this question — do you really think they are teaching about genitals and sexual positions to these children?

You have yet to explain how telling a kid “sometimes men love men, sometimes women love women” is so detrimental to society, or how it leads to “grooming” and “pedophilia”.

[raybennett]

I’m hearing your action plan as proselytization to influence voting as the action plan even if not to “save them from themselves”.

Can you explain who you believe is proselytizing whom?

[raybennett]

Or are you just using Tip-of-the-Spear’s entree to incorporate “shit slinging” into the thread?

There are plenty of Republicans who have actually been convicted of crimes but are still in the leadership, directing the Republican party and embraced or admired by Trump. Again, one of Trumps idols invaded Ukraine, and he is the de facto leader of the Republican party.
It’s not shit slinging if it actual fact.

In contrast, tell me anyone in the current Democratic Leadership or running for office who has been actually convicted of a crime.

[corey-devos]

You have yet to explain how telling a kid “sometimes men love men, sometimes women love women” is so detrimental to society, or how it leads to “grooming” and “pedophilia”.

To answer my own question, here is my best guess about this sort of “groomer” logic.

IF you believe that attraction and orientation is a choice, and not something we are born into,

THEN you believe that “normalizing” gays in society will in turn influence more kids to make that choice, and therefore more kids will lead a sinful lifestyle and turn their backs on God. This is the only possible way I can imagine people calling homosexuals “groomers”, and it’s pretty despicable.

A purely religious amber frame, of course, and a set of anti-gay tactics we haven’t really seen since the early 1980s, which attempted to portray all homosexuals as perverse, sinful, pedophilic deviants who want to corrupt your children.

Also:

IF you believe that homosexuality is purely about what you do with your genitals, and not about who you love,

THEN you believe that there is no way to talk about homosexuality without teaching kids all the different things they can do with their genitals.

So again, I present this as a fair compromise:

All kids get taught about all “protected classes”, and as they mature, the conditions that require protecting in the first place. This education begins with the basics in kindergarten — be kind to everyone, period. Then, in first through third grade, we learn to extend that kindness to different types of people. Kids are very good at this naturally. My daughter has brought home books with gay characters, trans characters, etc., and doesn’t bat an eye. She often prefers to get dolls with dark skin, because “I think their skin is pretty”. She’s a good kid.

At the same time, we agree not to teach kids at these ages anything about genitals, sexual positions, etc. Proper sexual education can begin in 4th grade, and then in 6th grade they can show the same horrible slideshow to them with pictures of genitals mutilated by STDs. An effective curriculum!

[FermentedAgave]

It was a joke. I’m glad you caught it.

Ah… So that’s how you are.

And you’ve never answered this question — do you really think they are teaching about genitals and sexual positions to these children?

You have yet to explain how telling a kid “sometimes men love men, sometimes women love women” is so detrimental to society, or how it leads to “grooming” and “pedophilia”.

You do love your framing. 1557 is “framed” as Parental Rights, not anti-Gay. 1557 “flips the script” from the LGBTQIA+ allies having any discussion they want with young children to having to justify the discussions they think necessary to have with young children. And more importantly, the parents get to decide.

Do you think a state employee’s desires for a child supersede the wishes of that child’s parents?

[corey-devos]

Do you think a state employee’s desires for a child supersede the wishes of that child’s parents?

Yes. If a family wants to be racist, the “state employees” at a school don’t have to go along with that. If a family wants to be sexist, the school doesn’t have to go along with that. If a family wants to teach creationism, the school doesn’t have to go along with that.

1557 is “framed” as Parental Rights, not anti-Gay.

North Korea is “framed” as a democratic republic. Is it?