Interesting inquiry. Perhaps it’s too far out, too great a frame shift, or perhaps someone’s scifi vision for humanity. Or perhaps simply not viable, implementable right now.
Good question. Let me ponder.
Again, this feels like a deliberately uncharitable interpretation of what I say. I think you have placed me into a category you have in your head, and filter my comments for the pieces that you think fit into that category, and ignore the rest. Then you aren’t actually responding to what I say, but instead to whatever you believe that category represents.
It’s odd to me that you accuse me of supporting the “expanded powers of the administrative state” as though I support authoritarianism, while simultaneously defending the state’s restriction of freedom, privacy, and speech in schools and clinics. And even though I’ve laid out perfectly reasonable and integrally-informed compromises for issues like these, you ignore that and continue to throw accusations at me about what you think I believe.
And then again you willfully misinterpret my response to your question, what do I personally plan to do about all those amber wokists in order to “turn them green”. And I said, quite plainly, there is nothing I can do to “transform” them, because that’s not how development works, all I can personally do is filter absolutist takes out of my own sense-making, and push for deeper/wider frames that can prevent the discourse from lapsing back to amber in the first place.
How many times have I had to repeat this? “At any point in history, the political ideal is to let each stage be itself, and govern from the highest reasonably available at any given time.”
But you pretend that i say “I want to take away amber people’s speech, arms, property, and freedoms”. You’re not describing me, you’re describing whatever low-resolution caricature you have of me in your head. I honestly have no reason why you feel the need to be so antagonistic with me, post after post after post.
Such as when you say “How different are your views on having the state ‘explore sexuality and gender identity with young children’ that different than the Marxist perv Foucault’s ideas?”
Hey, you found an overwrought way to call me a “groomer”. Nice work. Of course, what I actually said is that I think it’s okay to tell kids that sometimes men can love other men, and sometimes women can love other women, since one out of 20 of those kids eventually will, and since many kids have two dads or two moms.
I’m not even going to get into your accusations that I have “progressiphobia” or the line of straw-men dominos you set up (none of which actually describe my views) because I think it’s almost a work of art and kind of speaks for itself.
This isn’t just willful misinterpretation, it’s starting to feel downright malicious. Get me out of your shadow.
“compared to the extremely low resolution model (4 quadrants, 8 zones)
If you think Ken’s work is so limited and low-resolution, I ask again, why are you spending so much time here?
@FermentedAgave
You really just ignore what anyone writes, don’t you?
Show me anywhere I posted anything about Teal leading the United States, for example.
I did not.
I’ve said time and again - let America burn of its own Amber Red stupidity. My community doesn’t have any desire to even interact with you much less take responsibility for ruling over you.
Go ahead and chop off the heads of your woke amber enemies as they try to chop off yours. Go on - have at it lol. I’ll be loling from across an ocean.
And also - you completely miss the point about Putin and Ukraine. Putin had a similar mind as you - attack your neighbor who is at a higher stage of development than you. So thats my other point - a well armed Teal willing to kick your ass back to Russia or Arizona or wherever you hope to launch your backwards revolution from
You don’t realize it but the mainland United States is fast becoming a “shithole” country. Year by year More and more of it becomes “flyover country” not worth stopping at. Let me inform you that the “elite” have been buying property well South of Texas for decades, lol.
I myself have residency visa options both in the EU and also South America. And I’m nowhere near elite level. Thats just one of the benefits of not being ethnocentric. Go ahead and burn down your city and start that civil war. If you think you will get any elites at all you are severely delusional. Just woke Red against antiwoke Red. Have at it.
Perhaps it’s too far out, too great a frame shift, or perhaps someone’s scifi vision for humanity. Or perhaps simply not viable, implementable right now.
I also think it’s because of what we have built it on, what has been transcended and included, it’s just heading in such an unsatisfying direction, for me. Sure, we are in the “Transformation Age”, Zuckerberg just announced Facebook is now “META”. It’s now a new metaverse, and I can see it all… A new VR/AR world where you can, in special collaboration with Musk and Twitter, enter the “Culture Wars” a simulated world where you can pick your avatar and fight the Woke Army. Throw insults and virtual bombs, slash ideologies and virtual throats! Once you have defeated the Woke Army you will enter the temple, unroll the sacred scroll and your reward will be revealed; 10% off Air Pods on Amazon.
OMG, the Transformation Age is going to be SO LAME! 25 years of consciousness study and spiritual growth, personally and culturally, and the results are more creative ways to distribute coupons. The only question I have left is should I laugh or cry?
Maybe I’ve got too much experience in control systems and AI, but we never every get the optimal results along a linear path, and that’s with trivial complexities relative to humanity.
This holds something for me. The reality is humanity is just doing this, our frames are just that, frames. If Corey (theoretically) thinks the VR Culture Wars will be fun, more power to him to play the game. If I think it’s lame, more power to me to find something else. Green pluralism really becoming more reality, the real multiverse is emerging. Corey will live in a T1 world and I want to go down to P2 (I just had to overcome my pre/trans fallacy phobia), you may want to live in O3
The good news is I think all of our fears of the way we are “oppressing” each other are exaggerated. Both the PC police and the fears of the “Big Brother” state are SO overblown. Maybe the real questions we should be asking are more “what do you want” instead of “what do you think is the problem”. This may really open up our creative freedom to live the way we want, freed from these lame and limiting social definitions that are driving the Cultural Wars, feeding social capitalism.
Here is what I said:
To which you replied with multiple paragraphs that I’m “acting in bad faith”.
You don’t think it could be:
LOTS of Integral-splaining to say that you think I’m being mean and unfair to you. Ignore the message, attack the messenger.
To add resolution to a model I think has great value for humanity.
I don’t know if I should laugh or cry 
But I do want that 10% off coupon! LOL
I think the progressives do have a hard time seeing what progress has and is happening. In my knuckledragger world, it sure does “seem” pluralistic to me and I like it. But perhaps I’m just trapped in my brainwashed Literal Mythic Amber Pre “trap”.
We are seeing more and more on how, as Corey has also pointed out often, the Internet as ruined things (than transformed us as well).
Here’s a great clip that supports the theory. This is a chapter out of an hour discussion with Lehmann - all of it very insightful (at least to me).
I think of it as the book “The Time Machine” coming true. The Morlocks will increasingly live technological lives and over the centuries become physically unable to live outside under the open sun. Just replace underground with META. We see this already happening, as you show. Neckbeards fight out their culture wars with their chosen avatars.
The other race developing is the Eloi, a happy people dancing and playing in the sun, but who have lost the ability to fight and are preyed upon by the Morlocks at night.
I see this more as a warning than a prophecy. The warning to the Eloi is to not lose the ability to fight. Yes, dance and sing and laugh in the full brightness of the sun under the trees - but keep a gun handy to shoot any Morlocks dead if they try to drag anyone off.
Here in this forum we see a mini representation of this analogy in the interchanges of @FermentedAgave, our resident Morlock, who night after night tries to drag off the Eloi @corey-devos Integral Life Community down into the Morlock underground.
1 Like
And what are Morlock and Eloi you might ask.
Ray is the helpless, hapless blond. I’m the guy with shaggy legs.
1 Like
Wow. You’ve got some real closeted homoeroticism locked down in that subconscious trying to get out.
I understand how the whole LGBT discussion throws you off balance and your need to project onto others.
I’m comfortable with your fantasies of ravaging me - or eating me. Whatever the case may be. It’s a completely absurd fantasy which would be obvious if you saw my actual appearance, but hey you do you.
Personally this image appealed to my subconscious.
Yes, I’ve already considered the possible unhealthy aspects of the rescuer / knight / savior archetypes for anyone thinking along that path.
@raybennett You’re funny as hell when you’re not being a complete arse. Thanks for the laughs this morning 
I had to look up Morlock and Eloi. It’s been a few years since my HG Wells days.
Now that I think about it, deep down I was thinking you make a smoking hot Tranny and wanted to flip your skirt up for some emotional bonding. Will you scratch my back for me? LOL
Well hello there! You’re subconsciously moving in for a very close look at Furry’s (my?) intimate bits.
It’s ok. You can look, just don’t touch.
P.S. Oh my, I’m getting a little tingly.
Well, not me. The hilarious thing about this whole line of discussion is I’m 100% comfortable with homoeroticism and the whole Transgendered thing. I get it. There was a period of 5 years or so when I exclusively dated Trans women. Openly. But not as the bottom. You’re wandering into a territory that I wore comfortably and publicly. And yes, during that time me and my trans partners discussed men like you many many times. Closeted men who want what a trans woman has under her dress but are not man enough to give her what she needs - and that has nothing to do with genitalia or even sex, but acceptance.
You’re in over your head in this discussion, lol.
Why did you have to qualify that you’re “not a bottom”? I assume you’re amazingly Transcendent and would never succumb to the Pre/Trans Fallacy issue (pun intended). Absolutely unbiased, 100% transcendent. 
And of course it’s simply incomprehensible to you that I’ve considered, then freely and happily choose a monogamous heterosexual lifestyle.
Again, another example of your incredible transcendence. Glad you’re living your free from bias and Pre/Trans Fallacy zone. LOL
And I’m also curious if my response is somehow “oppressive” of anyone that adheres to an LGBTQIA+ lifestyle? And always interested in your gaslighting tactics - you have some good ones.
For what it’s worth, in that oh so Amber Literal Mythic Ethnocentric gathering on Sundays, the congregation includes I would say about it’s 5% share of what would appear to be LGBTQIA+ based on dress, who’s hands they hold, styles, and snuggles. And everyone is treated, from what I can see, with respect, kindness, compassion. Almost as if NO ONE CARES ABOUT THAT STUFF.
Almost would appear to be Pluralistic. But it’s gotta be Pre on the Pre/Trans Fallacy scale, right?
It’s almost as if the primary commonality is the religion posted on the building entrance. What if it really is that simple after all?
Happy Good Friday and Passover!
Meh, you’re deflecting again because you refuse to accept personal responsibility for manufacturing lies about me in this thread.
I’m talking about the message AND the messenger here. The message includes lies about wanting to take property and freedom from people. The messenger is someone who is seemingly intolerant of people disagreeing with him.
This also struck me as kind of funny:
“ We also differ in that it seems you’re quite ok “plowing ahead” past psychoses baked into the various altitudes. “Onward Ho, Damn the Psychoses!” if you will.”
You have criticized me multiple times for criticizing the “psychoses” of orange, as one example. And even more when I criticize the “psychoses” of amber. But notice that when I criticize the excess of orange or green or even amber — which you usually resist, in your contrarian way — I’m not suggesting a full social regression back to amber, as you are defending here. Because the amber we have in this country is often also deeply broken.
But congratulations, you officially have the same goal as CRT — to wind the clock back to amber, to eliminate the “psychosis” of orange and green, and hit the reset switch on civilization. Strange bedfellows.
Key here is you’ve essentially “judged” and “condemned”
Something you would never do, right? Unless they are Marxist Socialist Maoist Collectivist Pinko Woke Groomers, of course.
I accept amber for what it is, good and bad, dignities and disasters. The surface structures of amber always change over time, but the deep structures remain in place. And yes, that includes the types of absolutism that naturally emerge at Amber. I’m sorry if you don’t like this fact, but that is simply how development works. We grow from an absolutist stage at amber, to a multiplistic stage at orange, to a pluralistic stage at green. Sorry man, I didn’t make up the rules, you’re going o have to take that up with the Big Guy.
“To which you replied with multiple paragraphs that I’m “acting in bad faith”.”
Making up lies and strawmen about my views, as you very clearly did, is pretty much the definition of “bad faith”, yes.
Ignore the message, attack the messenger.
You seem to be projecting your hostility again. You made up lies about me, you willfully misrepresented my arguments, you tried to attack my character. And when you are called on it, you make yourself out to be the victim. Weak sauce.
I am amazingly Transcendent in regards to sexuality. It’s a simple fact. Nobody male, female or trans has ever seriously really expressed that desire with me. That’s just reality of my life. Or if they did as in your case, it’s not serious but just awkward joking and besides you are obviously so insecure, tentative, qualifying clumsy and inept that your efforts can just be dismissed with a shrug.
I’m not really concerned about your sexual lifestyle, except - as usual - you apparently want to drag anyone and everyone down into your personal shadows - and my answer is a clear “no, thank you”
I’m not sure where you are getting that I said you are oppressive of LGBTQIA+
Please quote me where I said this.
You have a bad tendency to make up things you believe I said. I have asked you numerous times to quote things that you believe I said, and you never have
Then why are you so deep into this topic? YOU obviously care about it, otherwise we would not be discussing it.
And a Happy “Hail Satan” to you.
I just want to suggest that folks in this thread take a look at this post as a way to help better navigate our overall discourse in this space.
Particularly the distinction between early-orange and late-orange, and how that shifts us from straw-man debate tactics, to steel-man dialogue tactics.
If you are incapable of accurately summarizing another member’s arguments, if you keep receiving feedback that you are misrepresenting their views, if you keep hearing that there is a gulf of meaning between what a person says, and what you hear them say… then that may be an invitation for more interpersonal growth.
I wanted to share a little, speculate, raise some questions around some of the material Michelle has brought up.
“Regression in service to the ego” is broadly defined in the psychological literature as ‘adaptive circumvention of normal ego functioning in order to access primitive material.’ It is considered destabilization that is necessary for some kind of equilibrium, or, for growth towards higher ego functioning and greater depth, and is based on shifting into the stage or state best suited for the task of the moment or the task at hand.
This kind of regression stems from anxiety, anxiety that has typically been associated with trauma or major frustration. The “primitive material” is embedded in the trauma or frustration. This kind of regression is not just a looking back on a prior stage of development from a 3rd person perspective in order to learn from it; it is rather an inhabiting or embodiment of that prior stage. In an individual, it is usually temporary except in the most severe forms of psychological disturbance or brain injury.
It is also a therapeutic technique in psychological treatment. In therapies, not just accessing but integrating the material is of course the goal. In some therapies, there is a “mutual regression” of both therapist and client/patient, a “shared madness.”
I say all this to preface the rest, starting with the question “do groups/collectives have an ego?” We speak about collective shadow and collective trauma, but how about collective ego? Do groups have a separate-self sense? Do they have a relatively organized identity, beliefs, stories, shadow material? Does a group engage in sense-making of their own thoughts, and the world? Do groups have a reasoning ability, do they have safety concerns; do they have defensive, perceptual, intellectual-cognitive, and executive abilities? Does all of this help them navigate and function in the world? If the answer is yes to these questions, then yes, collectives have an ego.
Nations for instance can be viewed as having an ego, which we sometimes refer to as ‘national identity,’ or at least as a major part of national identity. Long-running tropes like ‘American exceptionalism’ and the ‘New World’ point to the separate-self sense. ‘Land of opportunity,’ and ‘melting pot’ and ‘democracy’ all point to historical identity, beliefs and stories and reasoning etc. the nation holds. Etc.
More to the point, does the collective green stage (or any stage) have an ego? If so, then it can certainly regress, or segments of that collective (e.g. the Woke) can break or dissociate from the whole and regress–can “adaptively circumvent normal ego functioning in order to access primitive material.” Just like with individual regression, this primitive material is in one’s history, but here it’s in a collective history (around race, sex, gender, for instance).
In my compassionate or charitable view of this, the regression of some of the green to Woke and amber does stem largely from anxiety related to past collective and epigenetic trauma and past and present frustration. That the Woke green would regress to amber makes sense in that if you are fearful and anxious, finding like-others or an “us” group with whom one feels safe and a sense of belongingness seems rational. And yes, there is that matter of “shared madness,” how the crowd with groupthink and herding instinct can keep the regression going, as can tendencies towards in-the-moment gratification and indulgence.
But I do think, in my charitable view, that the regression is also a temporary one, although “temporary” for a collective ego regression covers a much longer span of time than it does for an individual. It seems to me that we can afford to be hopeful; think of Nazi Germany-- although it took many decades, that’s been largely turned around. Progress, in evolution’s time.
All of which brings me to your statements @Michelle. You have pointed out with your idea that the Woke are “widening” or horizontal-izing the amber stage that a stage of development is neither monolithic nor unified. And I’m with you when you say you’d rather see this amber stage have some values like social justice, inclusiveness, climate concerns/action, etc. such as the woke (or unhealthy green) brings to it. My question is: how is there any conflict between seeing a regression of some segments of green to the amber stage, and the fact that the Woke are “filling-out” the amber stage through ‘evolution 2’ or ‘amber 2’? To me, it seems both can be true at once. And perhaps I’m missing something, so let me know, and thanks. (A long road here, to get to what I wanted to get at 
)
1 Like