Could you have come up with a more negative interpretation? Like a ray of sunshine.
Why do you care what someone else thinks? Its a big beautiful world. Go be you and be happy with it.
Thanks LaWanna. Have a copy headed my way. Looking forward to it.
This is coming from decades of direct conversations I have with my Catholic family. I donât see this as a skewed interpretation. We spend a lot of time trying to understand one another. I care about my family deeply and what they think. Integral has been an extremely important tool in this process. I think there is something going on that Integral is missing. I think you point to it a lot. I do think there are other sets of integrated surface structures and reducing it to âregressed stagesâ I think is missing a bigger picture. I think this is what you are saying all the time. I agree. I think the more clearly we can understand these other integrations the better we will be able to communicate.
I also think that PC culture has created a type of underground condition where these views are not exposed to proper cultural critique and this has allowed for possible shadow and pathology to grow unchecked. This is the real danger of PC liberal speech oppression. It does not stop the surface structure development, instead it just develops in unhealthy conditions.
I am very happy and live in a beautiful community BTW 
Thanks Michelle. VERY well said and I think youâve accurately captured the development that Integral throws out in their inhumanly low resolution assessments which leads to rapid and sweeping condemnations of âregressionâ.
Not sure if youâre pointing to the unhealthy PC culture sub-surface developments or right sub-surface development.
One concept I see is the use of Critical Theory methods in our post modern assessments. As an example, weâve just spent a fair amount of time on rehashing the Southern Baptist and Catholic Priest abuses. At some point, instead of using pathological issues to âcondemnâ Christianity as a whole we clearly identify people and events for what they are - pathological surfacings. Then rather than fixating on âburning it all downâ with piling on with historical factoids to support the âburning it all downâ approach (dominance attempts?), look at whether the organizations (Churches in this case) are progressing/growing with modern safe guard or perhaps even transcendent growth. If they are growing and developing, then you would think particularly a transcendent community would set aside their unchecked progressiphobia and acknowledge the growth and development.
Understand. And also understand that weâre hashing out our ideological perspectives and how they match with the real world (aka family, community, etc). 
Not sure if youâre pointing to the unhealthy PC culture sub-surface developments or right sub-surface development.
One concept I see is the use of Critical Theory methods in our post modern assessments. As an example, weâve just spent a fair amount of time on rehashing the Southern Baptist and Catholic Priest abuses. At some point, instead of using pathological issues to âcondemnâ Christianity as a whole we clearly identify people and events for what they are - pathological surfacings. Then rather than fixating on âburning it all downâ with piling on with historical factoids to support the âburning it all downâ approach (dominance attempts?), look at whether the organizations (Churches in this case) are progressing/growing with modern safe guard or perhaps even transcendent growth. If they are growing and developing, then you would think particularly a transcendent community would set aside their unchecked progressiphobia and acknowledge the growth and development.
I was referencing the rights sub-surface development. I think the leftâs PC development has been front and center for 30 years. I think it has successfully, albeit harmfully, been suppressing other developments. This has resulted in not being able to properly critique the howâs and whyâs of pathological issues within these other developments that I do personally believe are rested within the development and are not just personal. But, that is my opinion and since they have not been exposed to a fuller cultural review thatâs all I got.
I also see a challenge the right is having to receiving the criticism now that their views are becoming more open. The right is not use to a critique from a position of the left really seeing it; itâs going to rough. But we do need to see it first. Coreyâs take on how to address the difference between LGBTQ views from Christians and from progressives was that we will continue to use culture to âeducateâ. That has been status quo for the 30 years (really more) and we need to see that it only works to those who are open to it. Like the post we are commenting on, I see that the Catholic view has not really changed, even if there is a stat that says 70% support it. They are kinder in a way, by accepting that homosexuality is given at birth, but acting on it is still a sin. That is not the progress I had hoped for, but alas, I am not the center of the world.
That does not mean that this new right view should not be open to receiving critique or that the response to that critique should be to âburn all progressivism downâ or exaggerate it as all some form of a 20th century trope like Marxism. We are different and how to handle that difference without civil war will be our new challenge. Elections are a part of it, but cultural development and respect need to be a part of it too. Passing laws that serve 49%-51% of a population while torturing the other 49%-51% will create a very unstable country, IMO. We need to learn to see each other, accept, in many ways, we do not like each other, and figure out how to work with each other. The cultural wars are over. It was a draw.
Who at this site has âcondemnedâ Christianity as a whole? Particularly in talking about âthe Southern Baptist and Catholic Priest abusesâ. Either youâre not reading posts carefully enough or youâre simply making things up. These were my words:
You need to do better than this.
Look, more bad faith straw men! A whole line of them, even.
No, I do not think Catholics are âall bad and pathologicalâ, and have never said anything even remotely suggesting this. Nor do I think âLGBTQIA++ all good and healthyâ. You seem to be projecting your absolutism on me again. Just because you might think in all-or-nothing terms, doesnât mean I do too.
It is odd to me that you want permission to make blanket caricatures of the left, saying things like âthe left wants to make everyone gayâ and they âwant to spread gender dysphoriaâ. But you cannot tolerate any criticisms of your âteamâ whatsoever â even objectively true facts such as the churchâs troubling relationship with homosexuality over the generations. Are you seriously denying that homosexuality has classically been labeled a sin in many/most traditional Christian churches?
Lol. No mention of Muslims at all.
I wasnât aware that there was a high percentage of Muslims in this country who are influencing our culture and politics.
Find a sliver (Evangelicals)
22% of the American population is hardly a âsliverâ.
No mention of how many teenagers and young adults âwalk awayâ from beautiful loving supportive families.
Right, Iâm sure LGBT youth absolutely hate it when their families are supportive of their lifestyles!
But nope - theyâre every one victims of the oppressive Christian Overlord Parents
There you go, projecting absolutist black-and-white statements on me again. Why are you still unable to steelman my views, after all this time? Why do you keep making the worst possible assumptions about me and my intentions (just as you do with the left as a whole) instead of actually reading the words I put on the screen?
Do you also believe that Ken has the same 100% anti-Christian sentiments that you claim I have? Because my views on this are more or less perfectly aligned with his.
"status quo for the 30 years (really more)" - Do you really believe Christians or Catholics have been âfrozen in timeâ since before 1990? Or is this more an expression of your own ânot progressive at the rate I would like progress atâ? Should Churches âprogressâ by year, by decade, by century with rewrites of the Core Beliefs? Or take FB polls and track likes to suite the ânatural urgesâ of everyone on Twitter or Facebook?
"Like the post we are commenting on, I see that the Catholic view has not really changed, even if there is a stat that says 70% support it."
Donât you get to choose how and with whom you worship? You might try the Unitarian Universalistâs. Compared to Catholicism, theyâre a Green Altitude political rally every Sunday, all in likely a really nice Churchy building with Lesbian and Trans ministers. Go for it! And there are dozens of denominations in between - donât drink thereâs one for that, love abortions thereâs several for that, pro-life thereâs many to pick from, take your pick.
The idea that me walking into a Church and the Church alters itâs core beliefs based on my current ânatural urgesâ seems a bit naive.
And yes, you might not be in the pew next to your birthing persons and genetic similars, but youâll be with people that believe like you do, that you respect, that you think are whole and complete, and feel the same about you.
LOL. Thatâs wishful thinking, but not quite yet over. 2023 agenda will include eradicating Intersectionality from the Federal Agencies and Red States in 2023, as itâs critical to not have âI feel likeâ erosion in our nation - thatâs for the Montessori schools. Yes, DIE industrial complex gets obliterated, legality of systematic racial preferencing will be questioned, it will be a âregressionâ to meritocracy vs. identity. There will be impeachments of Homeland, Treasury, Defense, Energy, and State. Biden will crumble under the strain of the depositions regarding Biden Family Enterprises.
Heck, look at Georgia with primaries going down this week. A Black likely-thumped-in-the-head-too-many-times football player is about to win his first ever election against an incumbent US Senator. 1.2M Republicans rolled out to vote compared to 700K on the Democratic side. And heâs a Black man with a southern accent. But no progress to see here, right?
Here in Arizona, the DNC Senator that won a special election in 2020 is up for re-election and will likely lose by +10% points to a doesnât-really-matter-how-the-nominee-is Republican. And Arizona is a Blue state, yes?
Do you really believe Christians or Catholics have been âfrozen in timeâ since before 1990
Not at all, that was my point, what I see is the past 30 years the beliefs became more radicalized. I just dont think it was as openly vocalized until Trump.
Donât you get to choose how and with whom you worship
Of course
And yes, you might not be in the pew next to your birthing persons and genetic similars, but youâll be with people that believe like you do, that you respect, that you think are whole and complete, and feel the same about you.
again, this is my point, that this is a bit of a loss, I had hoped years ago that this gap could have been closed, but it was actually widened more than I saw due to PC culture that didnât allow for more open dialogue, and this effected our culture privately more than I saw. We are now two completely different cultures.
There will be impeachments of Homeland, Treasury, Defense, Energy, and State. Biden will crumble under the strain of the depositions regarding Biden Family Enterprises.
more of the same that amounts to nothing.
eradicating Intersectionality from the Federal Agencies and Red States in 2023, as itâs critical to not have âI feel likeâ erosion in our nation - thatâs for the Montessori schools. Yes, DIE industrial complex gets obliterated, legality of systematic racial preferencing will be questioned, it will be a âregressionâ to meritocracy vs. identity
you are fooling yourself, laws can change but consciousness development is here to stay. You may not see this because you still believe your development is âthe rightâ development and my development was âthe wrongâ development. But, if you âwinâ and get to suppress speech, thatâs all you really did, suppress speech, not the development of consciousness.
Heck, look at Georgia with primaries going down this week. A Black likely-thumped-in-the-head-too-many-times football player is about to win his first ever election against an incumbent US Senator. 1.2M Republicans rolled out to vote compared to 700K on the Democratic side. And heâs a Black man with a southern accent. But no progress to see here, right?
Good god, no Walker is not progress and demâs didnât show up in the GA primaries because Warnock and Abrams were uncontested. They will show up in November. They may lose the election, but elections donât actually determine the evolution of consciousness. This is my point. The control is all an illusion and controlling speech is a fools dream.
I agree with you on the PC culture having a chilling affect on dialog.
To think that the Left has a monopoly on âconsciousness developmentâ might not be as accurate an assessment as the self-appointed enlightened might think. There are many Millions of people that see Identity politics as incredibly regressive. Promise of a utopian hyper-socialism has never worked out in the past. Why would it work out this time around simply because itâs got an Identity-based veneer?
How can electing a Black Senator not be progress? It will pull a new set of black conservatives into Washington politics. The Black population of Georgia will then have both Right and Left role models. Interesting dynamics to spring forth.
I agree with you on the PC culture having a chilling affect on dialog.
Donât fool yourself that conservatives donât have the same language/idea control. Now my daughter and I just have to hide our true selves from my familyâŚwhat fun is that?
To think that the Left has a monopoly on âconsciousness developmentâ might not be as accurate an assessment as the self-appointed enlightened might think
I donât think the left has a monopoly, that is exactly the point I am making, but they do have a consciousness development. There are a lot of very powerful ideas that I know you canât see and thatâs ok. I know my life has benefited in extraordinary ways from it. I have no doubt of it evolutionary power. This is where the world is, competing and cutting down instead of benefiting and thriving with each other. The point I am making is conservatives can win elections, take over every level of government, suppress any opposing ideas, but you are still not able to control evolution. Peoples interiors will do what they do no matter what words you throw at them. Why not just get curious and learn form each other, even if you are just learning about what works for someone else. I live in a red state, but that has no effect on my community, we are who we are. There are always work arounds.
How can electing a Black Senator not be progress? It will pull a new set of black conservatives into Washington politics. The Black population of Georgia will then have both Right and Left role models. Interesting dynamics to spring forth.
That sounds like identity politics to meâŚI thought we were getting rid of intersectionality by 2023:
Sucks doesnât it.
Or donât see them as materially different from all of the 20th centuries previous attempts at increased centralized control.
Haha. We are on an ideological and philosophical forum. Politics is where thoughts get turned into policy with real world testing of the ideas.
Lol!
I should have qualified with âhomosexual Catholic priestsâ. I know you were not referring to the 1B Catholics on the planet.
But letâs reread what you did right. Seems clear the Catholic Priests pose an âactual threat to the publicâ and LGBTQIA+ do not pose any threat. Is this what you meant by:
Which was proceeded by 4 digs on the Catholic Church.
Frankly Corey I donât know how you could be much more expressive of your disdain or contempt or anger or hatred or perhaps hubris or whatever it is you have with the Catholic Church.
Why do you care so vehemently what Catholics do or donât do, believe or donât believe that keeps you mired in this anti-Christian âanalysisâ? After a certain point the âanalysisâ starts to look like obsession with.
Are you and Fischer going to circle back on the Canadian genocide to settle some of the Integral Injustices?
I know you were not referring to the 1B Catholics on the planet.
I kinda feel like you were, because you followed this with:
Again, you seem to be projecting your absolutism on me. I have none of these negative sentiments toward the Catholic Church, I simply understand how people can be and have been oppressed, abused, shamed, rejected, etc. in the name of religion â particularly fundamentalist religion. And for an institution as large and storied as the Catholic Church is, there is much to be critical of, including their treatment of LGBT over the years, as well as their institutional coverup of sexual abuse. That doesnât mean I hate the church, it doesnât mean I hate people who are part of the church. Because, again, I am not an all-or-nothing absolutist.
I simply think that pre-rational religion needs to evolve and/or adapt (transform and/or translate). I am not saying all religion is pre-rational. I am not saying any particular tradition is pre-rational. In fact, there are rational and trans-rational elements to all of these traditions. Iâm not even saying âAmber is badâ. But I am saying that Amber pre-rational belief systems are capable of inflicting a great deal of suffering on people. Parroting Ken once again, religion is historically responsible for both the majority of the worldâs liberation, as well as the majority of the worldâs suffering.
In my post, I indicated that, when it comes to the LGBT issue, Catholics have actually made a significant amount of progress in recent decades. I donât argue Michelleâs point that homosexuality is still regarded a sin in the teachings and among the clergy, but at least 70% of American Catholics today believe that LGBT people should be accepted by their community. I think this has much to do with the sort of Vatican 2.0 reforms that weâve seen, which Ken points out represents a transformation toward Orange-stage translations of the gospel. I also think it may be because ~50% of Catholics include themselves among the left, which helps bring some added diversity of thought into the tradition.
And as I said, when it comes to the dominant forms of religion in America, itâs Protestant Evangelicals who have the least charitable attitudes toward LGBT. There are any number of videos I can post of megachurch leaders calling for the ostracization, and even death, of homosexuals. It is a particular flavor of American Christianity that, in many ways, remains unique to America, particularly as we talk about things like âprosperity gospelâ.
Which was proceeded by 4 digs on the Catholic Church.
No, they were acknowledgements of unhealthy versions of pre-rational fundamentalist belief systems, wherever we find them. I ask again, are you seriously denying that homosexuality has classically been labeled a sin in many/most traditional Christian churches?
See, this is one of the things we do here. We talk about the virtues of stages like Amber, Orange, and Green, and we also criticize the pathologies, abuses, excesses of those stages. And we talk about how, when new stages of development emerge (transformation), we see how they also become re-integrated by earlier stages (translation). Which is exactly how we saw 4% approval for interracial marriage in 1958, to 94% approval in 2022. It doesnât mean that everyone grew from ethnocentric views to worldcentric views â it means that what it means to be âethnocentricâ got retranslated once the later stages came online, and shifted the average mode of discourse. And some religious traditions have been more willing/able to adapt over time than others.
I mean, weâll probably talk about indigenous people again, yeah! But itâs not like the specific story you keep mentioning (which, it sounds like, hasnât been disproven, but neither has it been yet verified?) was the bulk of our discussion. Which I realize you are not aware of, because you never watched the video.
To your knowledge, is the Marieval Indian Residential School story also in question? It seems there were several possible burial sites discovered in Canada last year, which, to my understanding, was acknowledged and apologized for by the Church.
Notice the quote below, âwe learned how to not like who we were.â Exactly what I was talking about above.
âThe news is overwhelming and I can only imagine the pain and waves of emotion that you and your people are experiencing right now,â Bolen wrote.
Bolen said two years ago he apologized to the Cowessess people for the âfailures and sins of Church leaders in the past.â
âI know that apologies seem a very small step as the weight of past suffering comes into greater light, but I extend that apology again, and pledge to do what we can to turn that apology into meaningful concrete acts - including assisting in accessing information that will help to provide names and information about those buried in unmarked graves,â he said.
Florence Sparvier, 80, said she attended the Marieval Indian Residential School.
âThe nuns were very mean to us,â she said. âWe had to learn how to be Roman Catholic. We couldnât say our own little blessings.â
Nuns at the school were âcondemning about our peopleâ and the pain inflicted continues generations later, Sparvier said.
âWe learned how to not like who we were,â she said. âThat has gone on and itâs still going on.âł
Or donât see them as materially different from all of the 20th centuries previous attempts at increased centralized control
Exactly, itâs the problem, you and many people, right and left, are trapped in this 20th century loop. There has been development. We are not fighting a war between Hitler or Stalin. We need to be in the present moment, or I wish we could at least. This illusion we are caught in is just sad and strange.
You can keep saying that horrible things have happened in the near and distant past. No one argues this point. Horrible things have happened.
It has been argued that the schools essentially committed genocide. I was look for an article showing that bodies had been exhumed or radar images of the bodies. Something more than âindications ofâ. Itâs been a year now so seems like progress would have been made.
How are you not condemning Evangelicals and Catholics here with your Integral-splaining?
And donât you also want to âindoctrinateâ their children in public schools with beliefs intentionally to counter their familyâs values?
Ah, but the LGBTQIA+++ community is âhigher altitudeâ and donât âpose a threat to the publicâ like the Catholics and Evangelicals do?
The sales pitch throughout the 20th century has been âfreedom from oppression in this dystopian dog-eat-dog suffering worldâ. Just let us handle things since weâre doing this for you, and a new âutopiaâ will spring forth.Then once the power is consolidated, things devolve quickly.
So letâs say we codify reduction of individual rights (right to believe as you choose, right to worship as you choose, free speech, etcâŚ), then codify the power to enforce this (fine, jail, seize property) into the hands of those that know best (experts), what then are the safeguards that this increased concentration of power into the hands of the few will not be abused over time?
What could go wrong with any of this? Meanwhile at the World Economic Forum the âfewâ are working on our problems for us.
Because not all Evangelicals and Catholics are driven primarily by pre-rational fundamentalist belief systems.
Do you think the post I put up about Worlcentric Christianity is also âcondemning Evangelicals and Catholics with Integral-splainingâ?
And if you donât want âintegral explanationsâ, you are in the wrong place. Itâs kinda the reason we are all here.
And donât you also want to âindoctrinateâ their children in public schools with beliefs intentionally to counter their familyâs values?
No, because things like critical thinking, empathy, tolerance, and the factual existence of LGBT people are not âbeliefsâ. Same with things like teaching evolution in school, regardless of whether the kidâs family are creationists.
Ah, but the LGBTQIA+++ community is âhigher altitudeâ and donât âpose a threat to the publicâ like the Catholics and Evangelicals do?
No, because just like the Catholics and Evangelicals, LGBT people can be anywhere up and down the spiral of development in terms of their many different kinds of intelligence.
However, âacknowledging and including LGBT peopleâ is, in fact, higher altitude than âdenying and excluding LGBT peopleâ, yes.
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For heavens sake Corey. You post essentially âwhat Christiantiy should doâ? This is the same Christianity with 2 Billion adherents upon which our entire civilization has developed. You then compare the Subtle/Causal Experiental states that the half dozen Integral gurus have against the entirty of 2 Billion peoples experiences that are living paycheck to paycheck in order to justify the hubris?
Whoâs âdenied their existenceâ?
Once again you conflate âsorry LGBTQIA+++ community, you donât get to make the rulesâ with âoppressionâ. Its a very young conversation, just like the teenager that wants the car keys so they can drink and toke with their buddies. NO ONE CARES what your sexual orientation or gender alignment or shade levels might be.
Itâs a non issue until you demand that others pay for your surgery and meds, or demand they are given leadership positions based only on Intersectionality scores, or are forced to hire solely on Inteesectionality scores or want parents to pay you to indoctrinate their children into lifestyles they donât agree with.
Just apply the same level of justice concern to everyday Americans that you apply to the First Peopleâs in Canada. Be outraged that LGBTQIA+++ demand to indoctrinate others children against their wills. Sound familiar?
For heavens sake Corey. You post essentially âwhat Christiantiy should doâ? This is the same Christianity with 2 Billion adherents upon which our entire civilization has developed. You then compare the Subtle/Causal Experiental states that the half dozen Integral gurus have against the entirty of 2 Billion peoples experiences that are living paycheck to paycheck in order to justify the hubris?
Lol that was Kenâs writing, not mine. Take it up with him
Iâm starting to think you arenât very familiar with Kenâs work at all, despite repeatedly saying you value it a great deal. Genuine question, have you read any of his books in the past?
I suggest The Marriage of Sense and Soul, as well as The Religion of Tomorrow.
And these werenât states that âthe half dozen integral gurus haveâ, they are the same states that the founders of these religions themselves had, and that countless religious practitioners throughout history have had.
Whoâs âdenied their existenceâ?
Legislators that made it illegal for teachers to acknowledge the existence of LGBT people.
I found this kidâs valedictorian speech quote moving.
Be outraged that LGBTQIA+++ demand to indoctrinate others children against their wills.
Yes, âwe exist and should be acknowledgedâ is such forceful indoctrination. Though if I was working on the unfounded assumption that âmy political enemies want to make everyone gayâ then maybe Iâd have the same fear response as you.
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