I just listened to this podcast, which I find to be one of Ezra Kline’s most interesting ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwtztNS8H_U
Christine Emba, one of Ezra’s guests, who I have to admit I don’t really know, keeps mentioning again and again that she thinks JD Vance is an Integralist. This surprises me, to say the least.
Do any of you have any idea, what she means by that? The Integral community spans very wide–and I think that is one of our greatest strengths. But JD Vance would have been one of the last ones I would have suspected to be part of it. Does he have any connection to the integral community, or any outer edge or sub-culture of it? Does anyone understand how his views could be cast in an Integral light?
Clearly he is not a liberal (orange altitude) kind of person, nor a post-modernist (green altitude), but could any of his ideas really be interpreted to represent a true post-post modernist (i.e. integral) position rather than just being a falling back to earlier stage attitudes?
I would find it very interesting to get some insights here that go beyond: “That woman obviously doesn’t know what she’s talking about”. (which, I have to admit, was my first knee-jerk reaction)
Ok, one little side-note: I don’t think that makes him an Integralist at all, but I find it interesting that one of JD’s suggestions immediately reminded me a bit of something that Ken once suggested (and which I thought was very brave and very out of step with current culture and politics)
JD’s suggestion to give more votes to people with children, while very different in specifics, did remind me of Ken’s suggestion to give more votes to people of higher developmental altitude (or ability to take additional perspectives). Both, I’m sure, have received tremendous backlashes. Again: Personally I can identify with one of these much more easily, but if one was generous, they both could be said to be based on a similar premise.
So, that now brings up the question for me: Do the Integral movement and the “Catholic Integralism” movement just happen to share a word, which in either case refers to something completely different or is there a connection? Did Catholic Integralism in any way grow out of a sub-group of Catholics in the Integral movement? Did they borrow any ideas? Were they aware of Integral ideas?
On the one hand they sound like old-school ultra-conservative Catholics. What I remember myself from growing up as a Catholic in Austria in the 1980s (they were the OTHER Catholics, the weird ones, the ones who drove a friend of mine into suicide; Legio Maria, Opus Dei, and the like)
On the other hand, looking at this quote from the linked article: “… Catholic Integralists argue that liberalism is incapable of establishing deep forms of human community because it values individualism and liberty above all things…”
Well, that could be pretty much a verbatim criticism of the Orange Meme from someone in the Integral community.
So: ANY connection? Or should we be worried they are using “our” ( ) language?
I seriously doubt he’s an Integralist. Of course he has his own configuration of states, stages etc…to be sure, but as far as studying and applying it? Doesn’t look like it.
Oh gosh this is a matter of confusion of language terms. The term “integralist” means different things in different contexts. Emba is referring to a Roman Catholic philosophy and has nothing to do with integral theory (Wilber and AQAL and various successors) or integral studies (predecessors to Wilber such as Gebser, Aurobindo, Steiner, etc.). There is no connection.
From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integralism:
“In politics, integralism is an interpretation of Catholic social teaching that argues the principle that the Catholic faith should be the basis of public law and public policy within civil society, wherever the preponderance of Catholics within that society makes this possible. Integralism is anti-pluralist, seeking the Catholic faith to be dominant in civil and religious matters.”
Both Emba and Vance are Roman Catholics. Emba is much more politically progressive (perhaps Green) and obviously Vance is much more on the conservative side (pretty solidly Amber).
) language?