Those are some heavy judgements.
Almost everyone has a gap between their ideal in how they would show up in a perfect world and where they currently are.
It’s progress to recognize this gap and I would say it’s Integral to take steps to narrow the gap between what you see as your ideal self and where you see yourself. I think that’s what “showing up” is.
I’ve slogged it out with you for the past few months, usually realizing with a wince as I “traded blows” that I can only recognize in you what is in myself. If it wasn’t in my own reality I would be unable to see it at all anywhere.
This is on old Conservative maxim with deep Progressive ideals … which when combined crack the shell of ego!
Another spiritual quote I read recently … “No One Cares What YOU Think! … Until YOU Think About Them.” Is the tone we take with others the way we see ourselves?
Perhaps as we change our inner-self … our perceptions of the world change too?
Well how else are we going to “fix them”? LOL
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Joking aside (I like the idea of playing - having fun with this stuff), I was hoping that we could maybe take a baby step towards the Integral community inclusion of Conservatives, Christians, and other groups that seem to show up as “impediments” to the unfolding of the Integral Noosphere. In the US there are 10M’s of “those people”.
Overall it seems that “Integral” is so highly aligned with “Progressive” (or Leftist) that anything on the “other side” simply cannot be considered as, well, Progressive or Integral (@excecutive 's Duality mantra yet again 
) Almost every “example” brought up about Conservative or Christian would seem, in my estimation, to be a “worst case example” of “those people” - Literal Mythic, obedient Trump worshiper, etc… There was the somewhat academic “well they might, be depending on their internal states, but unlikely” out clause.
I’m curious why we need to even classify things as conservative or progressive when those terms apply to a bygone era and no longer really apply as they once did.
There is the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, but Trump pretty much destroyed the idea of traditional conservative values in the Republican Party and we are going to see the Democratic Party as the “Not Trump” party at least until he dies. Then COVID came along and further re-aligned people as maskers and vaxers or antimaskers and antivaxers. When I greet people for a face to face meeting one of the first discussions we have these past 6 months is if we’ve been vaccinated - not if they are liberal or conservative.
I really do think it is how we choose to classify other people that is key here - and whether we are “for” or “against” them, rather than if they are for or against us.
Does Integral have progressive (aka Green) ideas? Well, yes - or it would be called “Integral Except for Green”. There are ideas that are very much against the progressive “party line”. Well, of course there are otherwise Integral would just be called “The Democratic Party”.
Is Integral a cult where you have to accept everything Ken Wilbur ever said as wholly true as if it came from God? Well, some people try to push in that direction but of course it isn’t true for the majority.
Th real difficulty with the Literal Mythic comes along when others don’t believe the same thing. It’s impossible to integrate two opposing Literal Mythic beliefs. In such a case you have to decide whose Literal Mythic Belief is more valid and which is invalid. If on the other hand both parties can agree that there is some kind of transrational way to integrate the opposing beliefs, then yes it’s possible to “Integrate”. If we say “my truth is the only truth and is true for everyone for all time.” - then that really makes it impossible to integrate anything different.
It isn’t that anyone is asking you to take on any progressive beliefs or practices, but instead not to just exclude them outright.
Let’s take a look at an extreme example of polyamory. It’s a pretty far “left” concept. But it’s also pretty far “right” also, and is practiced to this day in some very religious communities. Regardless, no one in Integral would ever say you have to practice it. Some people might label it “left” others might label it “religious right”. Those are just labels that mean less and less as time goes by. I personally might see polyamory as a key step but 99.99% of people here would probably disagree, and some of them vehemently. Will I be kicked out of an Integral organization if it becomes known that I practice polyamory? No. Would I be kicked out of most Christian Churches and stripped of any position of responsibility? Probably yes except very few like the Unitarian Church.
The bottom line is: Do you have an inclusive system of beliefs or exclusive? Integration is the opposite of exclusion so by just logic and by definition systems of belief that exclude are the opposite of Integral.
When I or others give examples - I don’t think we are saying “all Christians are this way”. Actually the opposite. What I and others are asking is “Some people believe this. These beliefs could be seen as exclusive. This makes it kind of difficult to be Integral. Now, what do you believe?”
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Oh, and let me anticipate something here:
Yes, most radical left communities are also extremely exclusive. No, this is not Integral either because exclusion is the opposite of Integration.
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Right !! … and Left (LOL) … here’s the spiritual view … We are the only ones that need to be fixed. When fixing ourselves the world before us repairs itself too. Your success in this physical life reflects your inner self fixes.
That’s why there is only you communicating with yourself in this whole drama called reality. We’re all one whole thing called “life” … the disconnections are the illusions we wrestle with internally until we fully discover the Wizard of Oz behind it all … and that is you! ~ Peace
@raybennett The Integral Community spends a LOT of time looking at politics, religion, belief systems, race, and a whole host of real world concerns, issues, beliefs,… If we want to map real lives in the real world (physiosphere? ) with real world happenings (elections -> policies that govern us, attending this or that church, etc) then we have to somehow get some sort of cross correlation or Venn diagram intersections (or not) with said Real World and an Integral Noosphere. But if we are happy for Integral Theory to remain nothing more than an academic Noosphere exercise, then no we don’t have to use any other terms from bygone eras like progressive, liberal, leftist, alt-right, right wing, conservative, Christian, Buddhist, Democrat, Republican, atheist, Marxist, Communist, Socialist, Capitalists, Anarchist and on and on…
I do find it non-constructive how often you continually conflate “Trump supporter” with anything right of your political beliefs. Just as with many that voted for President Biden, was he their first choice? Perhaps not. No one would feel heard, accepted, aka “included” if someone were to continually dog-whistle that they supported a dementia suffering lifelong lying racist average at best intelligence groping swamp creature for President. If someone voted for Biden they would see that statement as offensive and feel distanced. That’s why we wouldn’t want to alienate you for, well, voting for a dementia suffering lifelong lying racist average at best intelligence groping swamp create for President, because you’re an obedient minion of the Leftist propaganda machine.
Now do you think you know what those right of you talk about when you’re not in the room? You’ll likely never know since, well, you’re all about “exploring extreme boundaries” to test if they are Pre, Trans or Post whatever trait you’re “helping them explore”.
What do I believe?
I’m a work in progress practicing Christian - i.e. I go to church, pray, read the Bible, volunteer, donate, and have fun with it with a bunch of other people that have fun with it . Do I think Christianity and specifically my brand is the “best gig around”? Of course I do or I would change branches or religions or become an anti-theist or identify as a turtle if it worked better for me. It’s no different than me wearing Saucony’s instead of New Balance because they are a better fit, for me. And do I care if you wear Adidas? All I care is that they work for you. Now will I eventually get tired of someone telling me that Saucony’s are outdated when it’s none of their business what I wear, and sadly haven’t even tried on a pair of Saucony’s since they were dumbed by their teenage sweet heart.
So yes, there are “people just like me” that run barefoot or wear wooden clogs or don’t go to the doctor. But guess what? They’re extreme examples of that have little relevancy and even less influence in the real world. Now if we wanted to explore a Post Running Shoe Noosphere with a Existential Race to the Death, then we might want to foist those clog wearing luddites onto a pedestal and chant destruction to all Cloggers. Even if you have something against Cloggers, I would recommend trying to approach them with love and compassion instead of blaming them for everyone “not getting it” by wearing Adida.
Then why am I so afraid of women wearing dirndls and clogs? LOL
Exactly these are all words that convey ideas all of which are subjective. The answer to fixing all of these so called contradictions … including why you’re afraid of women wearing dirndls and clogs … are only discovered inside of you. Dare to dive deeper and deeper trusting yourself entirely to figure it out. You’ve got this!
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Honestly, this is your problem to deal with and something I don’t actually do.
Did you not read that I think the whole concept of right and left are becoming irrelevant?
Those who you imagine to be on the political “right of me” never know that I am not “one of them” unless I let them know. Or do you think I wear a tie dye shirt
Here’s something interesting - two of our clients are local AM radio talk show hosts. Kind of like Hannity but only famous on the City level, not nationally. My boss regularly goes on conservative Talk Radio and a large portion of our client base listen to Conservative Talk Radio because this demographic sees him as “one of them” and by extension they never even suspect what my personal views are and almost never ask. Yes, they tell me all about their opinions on the latest news, or I hear them talking about it at the next desk over.
Because it’s at work, I’m not really concerned what their politics are and mostly just ignore it. I classify them according to the problem they bring in that they will pay me to solve. But then again I’m not deaf and I’m aware of how they classify themselves and others.
Where do these projection onto me fit in with this new information?
Yes - of course. But you are the one who was flooding the forum. Don’t act like you weren’t. It’s all there - a long string of you day after day after day. When everyone ignores you you just talk to yourself and bump your own posts, making all your anti-left posts the only thing visible on the first page. I leave for a week and come back and you are still at it.
Now you are wanting to turn the tables and say you “don’t care” what liberals believe? The posts are there recording the opposite is true - they haven’t been erased. For months you have gone to extremes to show just how much against the imaginary left you are.
Again, this is another example you being the worst offender by far that I see of the things you want to accuse me of.
It would be funny if I didn’t actually detect your sincere unconscious desire to come to terms with it.
You’re right, man. I got tired of your nonstop talking posting about people choosing to wear saucony’s (lilberalism) and got tired of it. Especially since you haven’t ever tried on a pair. Yeah, I’d like to talk about something else for a fucking while besides your anti-liberal fetish.
I decided that ignoring you didn’t seem to be working in the week I was away and decided to call you out and not back out. Not because I’m against you but because it was just the same old tired uninteresting mudslinging I could get by watching FOX news.
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I’ve never seen anyone here start a discussion to create support for President Trump, but do see you and a few others jump in with the “Trump Card” boogie man intentionally creating division, not Inclusion.
If you can bridge from Left/Right, Progressive/Conservative, (@excecutive 's Duality yin/yang) into Integral, I’m all for it. But until you can inclusively bridge across the spectrums with Integral Theory stuff, then you’re simply using Integral lingo for your own political, religious, dating rationales.
How can you possibly separate Trump and not talk about him in a discussion about conservativism post 2016? At best you can say that conservatives are split in support for Trump but to say he does not have a overwhelming influence on what it means to be conservative today is ridiculous. So that’s why I mention Trump. It’s the great pink elephant in the china shop.
Yes, of course. why else do people choose any theory? That’s also part of a point you are missing. Your beliefs are a choice you make - not an abstract reality true for all places and all times. You mention dating. Yes - your beliefs on dating are irrelevant to me and of course I have ideologies that support my practice. Why would I have ideologies that don’t create a positive world image for me? That doesn’t make sense at all. Again, moral relativism is Green and so of course I’ve been through that whole moral reconciliation process between Green and Amber several decades ago.
@FermentedAgave
I think you just like paining yourself into a corner and then finding excuses why that isn’t your own problem to solve. You find all kinds of reasons why I’m at fault or Integral is somehow at fault or liberals are the problem.
After all this discussion and several weeks of watching you chase your tail in circles, I feel I really am wasting my time here. Feel free to spam the forum again and and I’ll just stand back for a week or a month and see if anyone else wants to address it.
It seems you are demanding that any mention of conservatism automatically requires cycling onto and fixation with President Trump. That’s text book Critical Theory tactics, which you seem to wield like a bludgeon.
Congratulations. I’m simply not developed enough to have a dialog with you. Sorry about that Ray.
When I interact with people that are clearly interpreting existence from an Amber level or lower I have compassion for them like I would a child in a way. I accept that they’re at a level that some adults transcended earlier in life. If they start to get toxic and project shadow material and express their dogma, fear, and bias towards any group I will wish them well and walk away. It’s boring to argue with them because they don’t know the difference between subjectivity and objectivity and believe opinions are facts. The only one more foolish than the fool is the one that argues with them.-Lao Tzu
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There are many concrete understandings on non physical things. Here’s an example of the spiritual concept of math.
Imagine 6 year old Billy learning multiplication. He understand that 2 x 2 = 4 and then concludes that 3 x 3 = 6 because of his simple sound logic; seeing the x as a plus sign (+) turned sideways and argues with Jenny who says 3 x 3 = 9.
The subject is clear when the understanding is complete. How long does Jenny engage Billy in this argument? I am grateful to have the wisdom shared through @Brian_Downey.
Am I Jenny or Billy in this illustration? For a certainty I’ve played both sides of this drama. With spiritual clarity we can see all points of view.
Imagine your thinking is water and light that fills all the darkness and crevasses connecting everything into one whole understanding. Now ask … what role is the holistic view in this drama of conflict? The spiritual answer is that I AM Jenny, Billy and Lao Tzu in this reality and I can choose as I wish.
Be the polarity on either side or the three-fold cord of unity Ask now from this spiritual plateau how should I act in any such drama when I know not where I AM in this ratio of conflict?