Yes, I can. I have that ability.
Were you asking if I have that ability or were you making a request that I do type it out?
If it is a request for me to type it out, the answer is no.
At last 100% integral agreement. I love you Ray! 
For clarity, yes ALL OF THIS applies to me.
Couple of thoughts come to mindâŚ
- I lack the maturity, understanding, and/or being-ness to integrate my beliefs and views with the vocal folks here on IL.
- The IL community has well established views on what is not integral on the political spectrum, somewhat less established views along the religious spectrum, and not much concern along sexual preferences spectrum.
- Our communication, which I am introspecting for myself as well as assessing externally âout thereâ, is messy and perhaps too messy to bring integration/inclusion.
Hopefully the conversation is fun to play with, even if perhaps the occasional Red/Magenta egoic âelbow to ribsâ makes us wince. Maybe itâs akin to that section of the trail where itâs really easy to scrape our shins on the rocky slope?
Those are some heavy judgements.
Almost everyone has a gap between their ideal in how they would show up in a perfect world and where they currently are.
Itâs progress to recognize this gap and I would say itâs Integral to take steps to narrow the gap between what you see as your ideal self and where you see yourself. I think thatâs what âshowing upâ is.
Iâve slogged it out with you for the past few months, usually realizing with a wince as I âtraded blowsâ that I can only recognize in you what is in myself. If it wasnât in my own reality I would be unable to see it at all anywhere.
This is on old Conservative maxim with deep Progressive ideals ⌠which when combined crack the shell of ego!
Another spiritual quote I read recently ⌠âNo One Cares What YOU Think! ⌠Until YOU Think About Them.â Is the tone we take with others the way we see ourselves?
Perhaps as we change our inner-self ⌠our perceptions of the world change too?
Well how else are we going to âfix themâ? LOL
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Joking aside (I like the idea of playing - having fun with this stuff), I was hoping that we could maybe take a baby step towards the Integral community inclusion of Conservatives, Christians, and other groups that seem to show up as âimpedimentsâ to the unfolding of the Integral Noosphere. In the US there are 10Mâs of âthose peopleâ.
Overall it seems that âIntegralâ is so highly aligned with âProgressiveâ (or Leftist) that anything on the âother sideâ simply cannot be considered as, well, Progressive or Integral (@excecutive 's Duality mantra yet again ) Almost every âexampleâ brought up about Conservative or Christian would seem, in my estimation, to be a âworst case exampleâ of âthose peopleâ - Literal Mythic, obedient Trump worshiper, etc⌠There was the somewhat academic âwell they might, be depending on their internal states, but unlikelyâ out clause.
Iâm curious why we need to even classify things as conservative or progressive when those terms apply to a bygone era and no longer really apply as they once did.
There is the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, but Trump pretty much destroyed the idea of traditional conservative values in the Republican Party and we are going to see the Democratic Party as the âNot Trumpâ party at least until he dies. Then COVID came along and further re-aligned people as maskers and vaxers or antimaskers and antivaxers. When I greet people for a face to face meeting one of the first discussions we have these past 6 months is if weâve been vaccinated - not if they are liberal or conservative.
I really do think it is how we choose to classify other people that is key here - and whether we are âforâ or âagainstâ them, rather than if they are for or against us.
Does Integral have progressive (aka Green) ideas? Well, yes - or it would be called âIntegral Except for Greenâ. There are ideas that are very much against the progressive âparty lineâ. Well, of course there are otherwise Integral would just be called âThe Democratic Partyâ.
Is Integral a cult where you have to accept everything Ken Wilbur ever said as wholly true as if it came from God? Well, some people try to push in that direction but of course it isnât true for the majority.
Th real difficulty with the Literal Mythic comes along when others donât believe the same thing. Itâs impossible to integrate two opposing Literal Mythic beliefs. In such a case you have to decide whose Literal Mythic Belief is more valid and which is invalid. If on the other hand both parties can agree that there is some kind of transrational way to integrate the opposing beliefs, then yes itâs possible to âIntegrateâ. If we say âmy truth is the only truth and is true for everyone for all time.â - then that really makes it impossible to integrate anything different.
It isnât that anyone is asking you to take on any progressive beliefs or practices, but instead not to just exclude them outright.
Letâs take a look at an extreme example of polyamory. Itâs a pretty far âleftâ concept. But itâs also pretty far ârightâ also, and is practiced to this day in some very religious communities. Regardless, no one in Integral would ever say you have to practice it. Some people might label it âleftâ others might label it âreligious rightâ. Those are just labels that mean less and less as time goes by. I personally might see polyamory as a key step but 99.99% of people here would probably disagree, and some of them vehemently. Will I be kicked out of an Integral organization if it becomes known that I practice polyamory? No. Would I be kicked out of most Christian Churches and stripped of any position of responsibility? Probably yes except very few like the Unitarian Church.
The bottom line is: Do you have an inclusive system of beliefs or exclusive? Integration is the opposite of exclusion so by just logic and by definition systems of belief that exclude are the opposite of Integral.
When I or others give examples - I donât think we are saying âall Christians are this wayâ. Actually the opposite. What I and others are asking is âSome people believe this. These beliefs could be seen as exclusive. This makes it kind of difficult to be Integral. Now, what do you believe?â
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Oh, and let me anticipate something here:
Yes, most radical left communities are also extremely exclusive. No, this is not Integral either because exclusion is the opposite of Integration.
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Right !! ⌠and Left (LOL) ⌠hereâs the spiritual view ⌠We are the only ones that need to be fixed. When fixing ourselves the world before us repairs itself too. Your success in this physical life reflects your inner self fixes.
Thatâs why there is only you communicating with yourself in this whole drama called reality. Weâre all one whole thing called âlifeâ ⌠the disconnections are the illusions we wrestle with internally until we fully discover the Wizard of Oz behind it all ⌠and that is you! ~ Peace
@raybennett The Integral Community spends a LOT of time looking at politics, religion, belief systems, race, and a whole host of real world concerns, issues, beliefs,⌠If we want to map real lives in the real world (physiosphere? ) with real world happenings (elections -> policies that govern us, attending this or that church, etc) then we have to somehow get some sort of cross correlation or Venn diagram intersections (or not) with said Real World and an Integral Noosphere. But if we are happy for Integral Theory to remain nothing more than an academic Noosphere exercise, then no we donât have to use any other terms from bygone eras like progressive, liberal, leftist, alt-right, right wing, conservative, Christian, Buddhist, Democrat, Republican, atheist, Marxist, Communist, Socialist, Capitalists, Anarchist and on and onâŚ
I do find it non-constructive how often you continually conflate âTrump supporterâ with anything right of your political beliefs. Just as with many that voted for President Biden, was he their first choice? Perhaps not. No one would feel heard, accepted, aka âincludedâ if someone were to continually dog-whistle that they supported a dementia suffering lifelong lying racist average at best intelligence groping swamp creature for President. If someone voted for Biden they would see that statement as offensive and feel distanced. Thatâs why we wouldnât want to alienate you for, well, voting for a dementia suffering lifelong lying racist average at best intelligence groping swamp create for President, because youâre an obedient minion of the Leftist propaganda machine.
Now do you think you know what those right of you talk about when youâre not in the room? Youâll likely never know since, well, youâre all about âexploring extreme boundariesâ to test if they are Pre, Trans or Post whatever trait youâre âhelping them exploreâ.
What do I believe?
Iâm a work in progress practicing Christian - i.e. I go to church, pray, read the Bible, volunteer, donate, and have fun with it with a bunch of other people that have fun with it . Do I think Christianity and specifically my brand is the âbest gig aroundâ? Of course I do or I would change branches or religions or become an anti-theist or identify as a turtle if it worked better for me. Itâs no different than me wearing Sauconyâs instead of New Balance because they are a better fit, for me. And do I care if you wear Adidas? All I care is that they work for you. Now will I eventually get tired of someone telling me that Sauconyâs are outdated when itâs none of their business what I wear, and sadly havenât even tried on a pair of Sauconyâs since they were dumbed by their teenage sweet heart.
So yes, there are âpeople just like meâ that run barefoot or wear wooden clogs or donât go to the doctor. But guess what? Theyâre extreme examples of that have little relevancy and even less influence in the real world. Now if we wanted to explore a Post Running Shoe Noosphere with a Existential Race to the Death, then we might want to foist those clog wearing luddites onto a pedestal and chant destruction to all Cloggers. Even if you have something against Cloggers, I would recommend trying to approach them with love and compassion instead of blaming them for everyone ânot getting itâ by wearing Adida.
Then why am I so afraid of women wearing dirndls and clogs? LOL
Exactly these are all words that convey ideas all of which are subjective. The answer to fixing all of these so called contradictions ⌠including why youâre afraid of women wearing dirndls and clogs ⌠are only discovered inside of you. Dare to dive deeper and deeper trusting yourself entirely to figure it out. Youâve got this!
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Honestly, this is your problem to deal with and something I donât actually do.
Did you not read that I think the whole concept of right and left are becoming irrelevant?
Those who you imagine to be on the political âright of meâ never know that I am not âone of themâ unless I let them know. Or do you think I wear a tie dye shirt
Hereâs something interesting - two of our clients are local AM radio talk show hosts. Kind of like Hannity but only famous on the City level, not nationally. My boss regularly goes on conservative Talk Radio and a large portion of our client base listen to Conservative Talk Radio because this demographic sees him as âone of themâ and by extension they never even suspect what my personal views are and almost never ask. Yes, they tell me all about their opinions on the latest news, or I hear them talking about it at the next desk over.
Because itâs at work, Iâm not really concerned what their politics are and mostly just ignore it. I classify them according to the problem they bring in that they will pay me to solve. But then again Iâm not deaf and Iâm aware of how they classify themselves and others.
Where do these projection onto me fit in with this new information?
Yes - of course. But you are the one who was flooding the forum. Donât act like you werenât. Itâs all there - a long string of you day after day after day. When everyone ignores you you just talk to yourself and bump your own posts, making all your anti-left posts the only thing visible on the first page. I leave for a week and come back and you are still at it.
Now you are wanting to turn the tables and say you âdonât careâ what liberals believe? The posts are there recording the opposite is true - they havenât been erased. For months you have gone to extremes to show just how much against the imaginary left you are.
Again, this is another example you being the worst offender by far that I see of the things you want to accuse me of.
It would be funny if I didnât actually detect your sincere unconscious desire to come to terms with it.
Youâre right, man. I got tired of your nonstop talking posting about people choosing to wear sauconyâs (lilberalism) and got tired of it. Especially since you havenât ever tried on a pair. Yeah, Iâd like to talk about something else for a fucking while besides your anti-liberal fetish.
I decided that ignoring you didnât seem to be working in the week I was away and decided to call you out and not back out. Not because Iâm against you but because it was just the same old tired uninteresting mudslinging I could get by watching FOX news.
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Iâve never seen anyone here start a discussion to create support for President Trump, but do see you and a few others jump in with the âTrump Cardâ boogie man intentionally creating division, not Inclusion.
If you can bridge from Left/Right, Progressive/Conservative, (@excecutive 's Duality yin/yang) into Integral, Iâm all for it. But until you can inclusively bridge across the spectrums with Integral Theory stuff, then youâre simply using Integral lingo for your own political, religious, dating rationales.
How can you possibly separate Trump and not talk about him in a discussion about conservativism post 2016? At best you can say that conservatives are split in support for Trump but to say he does not have a overwhelming influence on what it means to be conservative today is ridiculous. So thatâs why I mention Trump. Itâs the great pink elephant in the china shop.
Yes, of course. why else do people choose any theory? Thatâs also part of a point you are missing. Your beliefs are a choice you make - not an abstract reality true for all places and all times. You mention dating. Yes - your beliefs on dating are irrelevant to me and of course I have ideologies that support my practice. Why would I have ideologies that donât create a positive world image for me? That doesnât make sense at all. Again, moral relativism is Green and so of course Iâve been through that whole moral reconciliation process between Green and Amber several decades ago.
@FermentedAgave
I think you just like paining yourself into a corner and then finding excuses why that isnât your own problem to solve. You find all kinds of reasons why Iâm at fault or Integral is somehow at fault or liberals are the problem.
After all this discussion and several weeks of watching you chase your tail in circles, I feel I really am wasting my time here. Feel free to spam the forum again and and Iâll just stand back for a week or a month and see if anyone else wants to address it.