Possible to be Conservative, Heterosexual, Christian, and Integral?

integral-thinking

#61

I agree with your heterosexual and Integral bullets.

However, as far as “conservative” and “Christian,” again it depends on which version of the words. We have a political faction in the USA that has (craftily) usurped those words so they can use the traditional meanings for “cover” while doing things that are clearly not conservative (anti-science, fiscal irresponsibility) nor Christian (vilifying refugees, not helping the poor).

GOP stands for “Gaslighting Old Party” these days.


#62

Im happy for you to lead off in your definitions, concerns. I would posit that the more you bundle your small factions/splinter groups onto general terms it comes across as looking to dominate the discussion. Doesnt feel so inclusive.


#63

I find the political fighting here to be a strangely familiar exercise on all social media platforms. Endless debates among brilliant minds constantly missing the whole point. It is what we do together with thoughtful planning and compromise that actually delivers genuine value to others and that happens everyday all over the planet.

When Trump wants to spend money is it a wise investment or reckless? When Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats want to spend money is it reckless or a wise investment? When citizens want to own guns is it reckless or is at all American? I see all points of view and have friends in all camps of thought.

Rather than honest conversations working together to try and understand our differences we seem to reflexively choose to fight for “our side”. The easiest victory will come when we fight against your own-side … that’s where real progress can be made. Maybe try switching sides to gain a greater perspective?

Rather than argue the polarity of ideas and the cause-and-effect outcomes, let’s try and come together on a better way forward for us all. That by definition requires allowing the connecting points between our individual ideals; be it between two people or three hundred million.


#64

Some wisdom in this…

For myself the discussions here have had me look more deeply and introspectively at my beliefs, thoughts and ideas.
I also have had a beautifully (for me) unfolding look into the foundations ok Wokeism, Leftism, Socialism, Communism as well as becomung acquainted with the new Integralism.
For this i thank each of you and I love you each for it!
:pray::pray:


#65

The funny thing is I’ve always felt that Christ was a radical liberal. So it seemed peculiar to me growing up and into my early adult years that he was so embraced by conservatives. The glaring contradiction and hypocrisy expressed by most(but not all) Conservative Christians was blatantly obvious to me. “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” is revolutionary for the time. It clearly is a call to extend caring and love beyond one’s tribe.

My initial criticism is influenced by my experience with conservative christians that we’re not willing to expand their compassion to “the other” outside of their group. That is a very unchristian act. If that is part of a person’s doctrine than they are not a Christian at all just a Developmentally arrested mind stuck in earlier stages of development. It’s a very small percentage of Christians that are also Conservatives that are willing to extend “Care and compassion to others outside their group.” Some pretend that they are with the underlying intent of converting people.

As for being Heterosexual and Integral: It almost sounds like your saying that being heterosexual disqualifies one from being Integral? I have many great friends in the LGBT community yet I’m a White, Heterosexual, and male… OMG! I’m the source of all the world’s problems!! haha

Obviously, we all know that not all Christians are Conservative and not all Conservatives are Christian. As some have said in the feed the question requires defining the words Conservative and Christian and those relative definitions will be informed by the structural stages that are unconsciously informing the mind the most.

Thank you for asking a question that got some people’s attention. It’s a very relavent question!!

Best,
Brian


#66

Hi @Brian_Downey ,
Wow. This just doesn’t match with the reality that I’ve been actively involved with for decades…

All of the Church volunteer and fund raising groups I’ve worked with over the last several decades have spent a majority of energy, effort, and resources on helping non-religious, non-proselytizing efforts - city, nation, world level stuff. And of course there is some work specifically to help “the tribe” :slight_smile:

Would you consider passively praying outside abortion clinics, respectfully handing out adoption and post-abortion counseling services information as “not loving or caring beyond the tribe”? How about staffing and running donation centers for the needy? Perhaps building and running food banks and food distribution networks? How about funding and building homes?
While all this is done in the real world (the physio part of the noonsphere?) with complete respect, compassion and love for the children, women and men involved with no attempts at proselytization, no guilting, no shaming. No PR campaigns, no parades, no TV advertisements, online ads, no quest for validation or “resist/inhabit” movements… And all of this is done this way with intention.

Could it perhaps be that progressives might be conflating non-validation of or non-agreement with progressive ideals with “not extending love and care beyond the tribe”?

Or perhaps progressives fall into the confirmation bias trap looking for weird splinter groups around which they can validate their perhaps less inclusive, less open than they would like to think world views?


#67

I’d say it’s also possible to be quite black and white about mythic literal and think of that kind of thinking as stupid, childish, harmful, but I think as long as one is holding mythic literal lightly, and thinking of it as being within another dimension then it’s fine. I can understand why people would want to state very clearly that it’s not the one true reality, because so many people still state that it is, and want harm to come to people who don’t believe it. But if you think of mythic literal from a child’s perspective, elements of it can be so fun and transcendent - and can be similar to how children play imaginary games. And everyone still has that mythic literal perspective within them.


#68

Haha!! Yes, yes why don’t we PLAY with these topics more? :slight_smile:

How about one man’s Mythic Literal knuckle dragging Cro-Magnon just might be another woman’s Mystically Enlightened spirit beings?


#69

What often happens is a kind of schizophrenia. Lots of people do something to feel good about themselves and to hide from themselves how really deep down they are not as good as they want to believe themselves to be.
If the same people doing the food banks also want to eliminate or reduce EBT - in my opinion that is schizophrenia. They want to give food out to anyone without restriction but not allow them to have free food cards from the government.
We could go down the line of the Republican Presidential ticket in 2016 and 2020 examine which items were Christlike and which were not.
There’s a joke about Churches being full of sinners because they are the ones who need to go most.

Quite often, no. It’s often very much creating an enemy where none exists. Pointing the confirmation bias finger at liberals is so hypocritical here and ironic it isn’t even funny.
LGBTQ is a perfect example - why does this bother Christians what responsible adults do with each other and why does it matter if they get legally married? Why oh why oh why was the biggest pre-COVID conservative demonstrations during the gay marriage legislation period? And speaking of that - how do the Church leaders rationalize violating their nonprofit legal status by organizing political demonstrations?
I remember a time when it was impossible for anyone LGBTQ to get even a basic “Secret” security clearance. The reasoning was that a person who was LGBTQ (or even just non-traditional in sexuality such as with kinky sexual preferences) would be more likely to be blackmailed. Logically, the only reason they could be blackmailed was because people of strong religious views would try to ruin their lives if it was discovered they were not having sex missionary style with “one man one woman”.

Post 2016 there is this whole hypocrisy of mainstream Christian religious leaders supporting a President / ex-president who is the antithesis of Christlike behavior in his personal actions and policy decisions.
With abortion clinics - I think the whole controversy is that many of the protests are often not peaceful nor respectful and are often violent or harrassing. You can say you only see peaceful and respectful ones, but the court records around the country show that often they are not.


#70

I’m SO busted! :slight_smile:

Is what two consenting adults of majority age doing what they choose what really bothers Christians? Or could it be something else?


#71

In my experience, yes. I often see that it really does bother Christians to see LGBTQ adults expressing affection.
But you tell me. What’s the problem as you see it?
Why during the period 2012 - 2014 were churches organizing political protests to try and block any legislation that would allow any marriage besides one man and one woman?


#72

That’s not what I see, hear, feel from the people around me.


#73

Whether you hear and see it or not, it’s well documented.

https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/roman-catholic-church-pours-2-million-into-discrimination-against-lgbt-amer


Court Cases:
https://www.aclu.org/search/%20?f[0]=field_issues%3A265
That’s from 5 minutes of looking.


#74

I was speaking of actual human beings that I know and interact with, but nice googling work.


#75

You were talking about progressives as a whole somehow mixing things up because you do not recognize things that are pervasive and are recorded to happen in actual fact.

If you are just talking about YOUR experience - then fine. But you weren’t. You were talking about (as usual) liberals getting the story all mixed up and conflating things, then having confirmation bias against your views.
When in reality this constant thing where you are constantly AGAINST progressives and painting everyone with a very broad brush or even just making things up based on your own confirmation bias and then making the accusation of confirmation bias is frankly nonsense.


#76

Thanks @raybennett You’ve given me some things to think about.


#77

Thank you @raybennett I am certain that you can extrapolate the exact same insight regarding those on the left reacting from the same fear shadows regarding religious people from the other-side?

Certainly most Americans have LGBTQ people in their lives … yet no one here seems to be making this issue a priority … in fact perhaps it’s simply an issue to promote conflict between the polarities?

Question for you is there a right or wrong way from the integral perspective, above the ego clashes on the ground, to create a balanced and positive interaction between the two perspectives that you could articulate?


#78

This sounds like a “Green” goal. Green believes there is a right and wrong, seeks to suppress the ego, avoids actual conflict and engages in conflict in a kind of roundabout way, wants positivity, and so on and so forth.
It’s not really my goal to live from a Green perspective and call it Integral.

LGBTQ was only used by me because it was the easiest to show my point with.

Again - yes. That’s my point. So why is it an issue many conservatives and many Christians harp on constantly? There would be no conflict if people could just be who they are without other people feeling threatened by it. You tell me - is it simply an issue for conservatives and certain religious groups to promote conflict between polarities? You tell me. I actually didn’t bring up the topic - it was in the OP and I personally found it a strange question.


#79

I find it curious that you continue to promote your singular polarity point of view over and over again. A point of view we all understand and have argued ourselves on occasion. Yet you seem utterly unable or unwilling to articulate anything unique or informative to expand the conversation beyond arguing the contrasts?

Here’s an example of polarity … hopefully will excite you and move you in deep spiritual way. :slight_smile:

You just keep talking about YOUR experience - You keep talking about (as usual) religious conservatives getting the story all mixed up and conflating things. When in reality this constant thing where you are constantly AGAINST others painting everyone with the same broad brush or even just making things up based on your own confirmation bias and then making the accusation of confirmation bias is frankly nonsense.


#80

Yeah, we can do this all day. Let’s just keep projecting our own shadows on each other, right?

I was talking to a specific person - @FermentedAgave
If you took it to apply to yourself that’s on you.
Also if you took it to mean that I was talking in general about a group of people - again that’s on you

It’s clear to me that you don’t understand my point of view at all. I’ve tried to explain it to you a couple of times but you don’t get it. I understand that you want to get along with everyone and for everyone to get along with each other, and you see this as the ultimate goal. I don’t see it as the ultimate goal and you struggle with understanding my perspective.