The Conversation: What the Integral Movement Needs Next


#121

@FermentedAgave

It sometimes does have consequences. Like in Ohio, where the state Supreme Court just knocked down the Republicans’ recent redistricting map that highly favors them, disregarding the 2018 amendment to their constitution that disallows maps that favor or disfavor one party or the other. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/top-ohio-court-strikes-down-state-s-gerrymandered-congressional-map/ar-AASN0nq Wonder if this will have any related effect on AZ’s partisan map?


#122

What “tyranny” or perhaps best viewed as encroachment on individual or groups rights was attempted under the Trump admin?
Last I remember Blue cities and states demanded that the Feds “stay out” to let the looting, burnings, violent attacks occur. Last I checked that overwhelming majority that did commit the crimes got off with slap on wrist at worse. And other than defending Fed buildings, Trump let the cities and states do what they wanted - Democracy in action…
I personally had no concerns on encroachment on my rights by a tyrannical government during Trumps Admin. Most of Trumps agenda actually worked for me.
Navy, Coast Guard, DEA, and CBP shutting down illegal entry unto US and drug flows. I think there were fewer illegals asking me for work with blood red eyes and maniacal grins than now.
Individual choice on vaccinations and masks.
Proposed no tax/permit gun suppressors.
Tighter leash on agencies terrorizing citizens.
Appointment of constitutional law judges as opposed to legislation from benchers. Man did Sotomayer and Breyer flub up their “facts”. Ouch…

12 out of 150M doesn’t seem like a tidal wave of white supremacy. I think we still see much more crime in deep Blue areas.

Yes I like McCarthy, but he’s hardly my go to for national sentiment metrics. Seems all the news whonks from Fox to CNN to MSNBC are all predicting a change in both House and Senate majorities. That precipitates committee leadership changes, which as we’ve seen this year has a dramatic impact on committee agendas. Good news is that regardless of majority party witness testimony is still under oath. Easy enough to replay what was said or provided to Congress.

That’s great for Ohio. Damnedable politicians trying to pull a fast one got caught it seems. Not sure a would call forcing a do-over much of a consequence. Hopefully it will be fair as can be.

I did just look at AZ current and 2013 district maps but don’t know enough about it to pass judgment.


#123

Do you only feel this way when your preferred political party is being criticized, or do you also factor this into your daily contempt for the left? Just a consistency check!


#124

@FermentedAgave

Are you serious? Even if you dismissed half of the notations in the list at this link, there was still some pretty significant ‘encroachment’ going on: https://civilrights.org/trump-rollbacks/ (And if you don’t like this source, there are plenty of others).

You do realize that you just did DARVO as I described it? --Denied, Attacked, Reversed Victim and Offender.

“Crime” and “Seditious Conspiracy” are not synonyms.

I agree, not much of a consequence, but more of a consequence than we’ve seen previously, and a strong judicial ‘suggestion’ that indeed, they play fair and get it right the second go-around.


#125

Here is something useful in deciding that:
https://community.integrallife.com/faq

Expressing contempt for a contemptuous idea is a short term sacrifice for a longer term good. Failure to challenge contemptuous ideas or behavior and describe them as contemptuous keeps the peace in the short term but fails in the long term.
Also there is a difference between expressing contempt for ideas, behavior and the person. All three are completely different. Anyone can have an idea. Behavior is only after the idea goes unchallenged. Identity as “I am” - again is much further along after both idea and behavior has gone unchallenged.


#126

@LaWanna Thats a shockingly long list of grievances. I made it into Trumps first 2 months. It would appear every grievance is viewed through an Identity Politics/Woke lens. Trump was not Woke as people that voted for him were not Woke. Being anti Woke/anti Identity politics was essentially the mandate he was given.
I’m also a newbie and learning about all these psychological sociological jujitsu techniques and terms so will try to be cognizant of either myself or others DARVOing, intellectual bypassing, or mucking about.

I’m also somewhat familiar with how non profits/NGOs can be setup to market specific agendas and create narratives.

Since I view Woke/Identity politics as harmful to humanity and regressive to Civil Rights, I’m quite OK with most everything 45 did for the country.

If I stop here hopefully I won’t be guilty of DARVOing.

PS I would posit that there are much more Meta or Neo or Post lens on which to view the world.


#127

Sorry, this is just bullshit you are spewing here.

Viewed through a Conservative or Moral or Spiritual or Fiscally Responsible lens. Hell even just a simple Honesty lens, or just not a thoroughly poor excuse as a human being lens - 45 is just as deplorable in just as many instances.

I knew you were full of it when you denied this a few months ago.


#128

@raybennett I thought Trump was a rude, crass idiot in 2016 (and didn’t cote for him). But based on his effectiveness as President was very much in support of him. And he remained a divisive rude, crass mouthy man that made me often cringe. But he got lots of shit done that I thought important.


#129

Like getting mexico to pay for that big beautiful wall that was 100% built, eh?
Or simplifying our taxes, lol.
Or basically making America Great Again, lmao

fact is he didn’t do jack or shit and made at least 10 major problems much worse than when he started.
And he was completely inept in a national crisis - which was predictable from the beginning.

You list 10 things he did and you know they will get shredded by facts. Not perspective - facts and data


#130

The funny part is that you spent 6 months denying you were at Trump supporter when it was obvious you were.


#131

Just as I’m not a DNC supporter but very likely will vote for Senator Sinema in 2024. And yes she makes me cringe lacking basic decorum, dressing like a hooker and babbling about her sex life.


#132

Controlled Mexican border
Rolled the Navy and CG to stop drug invasion
Pressured Mexican Gov to stop the caravans from reaching border
Hammered CCP economically
Positioned military to be successful in their missions
Pressured Russia to stop expansion
Forced Iran nuclear program halt
Got EU countries to pay more into NATO funding
Fast tracked record breaking development of 3 COVID vaccines
Blunted DNC/Hillary momentum to expand authoritarian state


#133

@FermentedAgave

Yep, very long; I’ve made it through the years 2017 and 2018 only. Having read more than you :slightly_smiling_face:, I can vouch that not all of it is woke/identity politics. I figured you would find wokeness there, which is why I said there are lots of other sources of info about Trump’s “encroachments.” All you have to do is google for it. Or stoke your memory a little, like remember those children in cages?

I do not see Trump and followers as being anti-identity politics, for even if one is against identity politics, as soon as that is verbally or behaviorally expressed, one is playing the game of identity politics. It takes two to tango, or tangle. Plus, Trump had/has his own brand of identity-politics and identity-centrism–mostly, it seems to be about his own personal identity, don’t you think?

And Trump was/is as “woke” as any leftist–if we consider the meaning of ‘woke,’ which is to be “ever aware and vigilant of social injustices.” That was the original meaning given the word by Blacks in the 1940s. Other groups have co-opted the word, and yes, some have taken it to ridiculous extremes, but that’s not every Democrat or left-leaning person. You know this. The word has been weaponized by people of all political persuasions. And Trump himself is quite woke, seeing himself as a victim and seeing injustice in every direction personally aimed at him, and many people on the right are woke as well, full of grievance based on their identities as not-Democrats, Republicans; not-progressives, conservatives. It’s an unwinnable game, as far as I can tell, this whole contest as to who or what group is most woke. You and I even talking about it is a form of wokeness.

Identity politics are not new; they’ve been around for millennia (remember even Hammurabi and the classification of identities as superior people, commoners, and slaves, and it certainly extends further back into history than Hammurabi’s time just a short 3500 years ago). In one sense, identity politics are an occasion for sorrow, in that diversity should be appreciated for making the world go round, whether in nature or society or religion. It’s possible for diverse groups rubbing up against one another to experience a symbiosis, sort of like garlic and roses growing together: the garlic benefits from the soil composition needed for roses and the roses benefit by the garlic warding off aphids. And, we should add, conflicts can lead to creative change, transformation.

Of course, without a modicum of unity in all that diversity, the world tends to spin a bit out of control. “Conflict means not to love” is a phrase I remember from the I Ching. To hold these thoughts together–conflict can lead to positive change, and, conflict means not to love–.gives us half a chance of striking a happy balance in our own consciousness and in how we treat ‘other.’


#134

Our Civil Rights movement and expansion into our society and culture (was considered progressive at one time) ensured and continued to erase race, gender, religion, and sexual orientation from our economic and political hierarchies. Not long ago this is what Americans across the board thought and how they lived. You could say the American identity was transcending over past identities. It wasnt whether you were gay or black or Christian or white or atheist but American.
With the politicization of race, sex, gender into the Religion of Identity with the Promised Land of Equity Payouts , the foundations of individual agency and responsibility has been under attack. Intent is to create unresponsible people with little agency, little sense of citizenship, little sense of commonality with fellow Americans.
The attacks are vicious and speedy. Accusations of xenophobia, Racism, nationalism leading to supremacy are used widely simply to hurt fellow Americans. Enforce our immigration laws and you’re not a citizen of the world but a racist Red/Amber knuckle dragger and probably a white supremacist regardless of how white you might be. It’s a very twisted view of fellow Americans that leads to these attacks.
The Left has become a Religion of domination with its high priests passing judgment in mass proclamations.
Yeah, I guess you could say Americans are waking up to the Woke issue.
Good news is the regressive Leftist agendas are apparently dying out as true intentions are understood and we will be left with a vibrant Liberal Democracy again.


#135

If it was controlled - why is there no paper trail for children separated from their parents and why are we still unable to reunite them?
So bullshit point #1. The fact is that it was uncontrolled chaos to the point there isn’t even documentation about who was sent where.
Then there is the whole thing of employment of private contractors, who again were qnot required to submit paperwork and also raped minors.
It was a big clusterfuck and the only way to think it was “controlled” is to just ignore facts

Bullshit point #2 - So there were no drugs coming into the country during the Trump administration? Opiate abuse ended? (opiates are manufactured across the border). Crystal meth use ended? (the primary ingredient to make meth is also produced outside the USA).
Fact is that drug imports did not stop and the drug problem contiued at the same steady pace it always had. Because you cannot stop drug use by millitary force. We have 50 years of facts on this. Treatment of addiction is the only way to reduce drug addictiion over the long term.

Bullshit point #3
The fantasy non-existent caravans of hundreds of thousands of people that never actually existed and were manufactured talking points.
Fact is that Trump stopped something that never existed in the first place

Bullshit point #4
See draining the military of resources to pay for the wall that now sits half built and materials now lie rusting in piles in the dirt. Trump robbed the military budgets for his border wall. That is just a fact.
See clusterfuck he left in Afghanistan

This is just pure fantasy. Trump is Putin’s Bitch and never said one single critical word of Putin nor of Russia. Trump is completely spineless and the epitome of what people mean when they say “Beta Male” when he is around Putin

But the Nuclear program continues to this day and never skipped a beat. This is just not at all factual. This is just lala land wet dream fantasyland with absolutely zero basis in reality.

Yep, he’s like that wide receiver who catches an 80 yard pass then fumbles one yard before the inzone and the opposing team runs if back for a touchdown. Nice catch, but the end result was a fumble to the other side, lol.

The authoritarian state was not at all blunted, but completely expanded. Trump is an Authoritarian and established hundreds of Authoritarian precedents that future Presidents (both Republican and Democrat) can point to to establish the legitimacy of Authoritarian Presidential action. In fact, Biden is choosing to keep some of these in place for his convenience with the result that both Democrat and Republican future presidents can both be more authoritative than in the past solely because of Trumps short-sightedness and ego.


#136

Yes, this is the trend in Trump politics I agree.

And mostly justified. Like banning travel from Muslim states regardless of if a Terrorist in the US ever originated there or not, then saying “oops” and changing the list a bit after a few days.

It’s not just the xenophobia - I lived in a Xenophobic country. It’s the complete and utter incompetence and ineptitude in designing and implementing policies that make absolute zero sense.

Honestly, when you look at images of Proud boiz what I see are in fact racist Red/Amber knuckle draggers., and also white supremacists.
This is just more Trump Conservative snowflake bullshit “I just hang out with racists and go to all their events, but I’m not a racist” then being butthurt when people don’t treat you like a special snowflake who has unique feelings despite their actions and public associations.


#137

It’s stories like this about trump Supporters that make me laugh like hell.

Man chases a police officer during a riot and now wants to be freed because the consequences of his actions are hurting his family, lol.

This is the whole problem @FermentedAgave

If you take really bad positions based on complete nonsense and support people and policies wholesale that are also terrible and Red/Amber, there will be consequences. If it’s just ideas, I just think you are retarded. If you associate with and support racists I’ll call you a racist.
This is why I do not support stupid policies on the left, and do not identify with the woke left (or I’m cancelled not exactly sure, lol - don’t care either).
But honestly, being “cancelled” is nothing compared to being chased down and murdered in a lynching just for being nonwhite (which happens to this day), so we are comparing grapes to watermelons here.


#138

Thanks Corey for those additions!

I think my main problem with talking about Integral’s “mission-problem” as a software problem, with software being a metaphor and not literal, is the use of that language itself. I feel like it really dehumanizes the interpersonal and social problems that need to be addressed for us to move forward; as though we can simply update the programming and everything will get better. It also has some echoes of determinism in it for me that don’t feel great (ie, software programs only ever operate within the parameters of their programming, and cannot – currently, setting aside whether not AI with true “free will” could ever be created – evolve themselves out of their programming). TL;DR, I don’t feel much “heart” in software as a term, and I have to go back to Terry Patten’s “A New Republic of the Heart” and his encouragement to include our humanity in our activism.

I can see how the Chinese proverb could be seen as taking a larger view, which is a very Integral thing. Where I personally get a little wary of that proverb, though, is that here is the hero of our proverb, seemingly unable able to experience both joy or pain. He reminds me of the “Grays” from Futurama (#letthenerddingbegin!) that would always respond to any crazy situation with “I have no strong feelings one way or the other.” Netflix’s Don’t Look Up seems to cover this on the “bypass / avoidance” end of the spectrum we’re seeing (at least, in the United States), which depicts an over-reliance on “feel good” behavior and messaging while ignoring that felt pain and grief is a very real (and valuable) human experience. So, I think the larger view of the proverb is in fact Integral (with an emphasis on Wholeness, and that the individual at their personal holon level probably won’t ever see that Wholeness in its entirety), while the behavior it wants to profess through its lesson is maybe more flatland postmodern than I care for. Sure, it’s good to not become overly invested in circumstances or a specific outcome, but we also don’t want to ignore circumstances entirely or stop seeking specific outcomes – especially at the expense of felt emotion, which is an incredibly valuable aspect of being human. I think we also don’t want to lose sight of working toward specific goals in Integralism in service of trying to “boil the ocean” with our more-comprehensive worldview.

Now, going to the larger topic here because others have asked, if I were to start analyzing Integralism in the desire to determine our mission parameters and then work to accomplish them, here’s how I would start (and I by no means think this is the only way – just the way my prior IT project manager brain knows how to get large, complex tasks done).

  1. Determine our core values
  2. Determine the goals that are related to the core values (ie, where do we NOT see those values expressing en masse in the world, and then set a goal to bridge the gap)
  3. Get all the goals up on a whiteboard
  4. Start to build out dependencies for the goals. Which goals are dependent on others?
  5. Start to map how long (estimated) those goals will take to complete
  6. Map out which goals can run in parallel
  7. Run a “critical-path” analysis on the whole chain of parallelized, dependency-aligned goals to determine which specific goals are critical, and ensure they are receiving appropriate attention since they will hold up every other subsequent goal.

Believe it or not based on my prior comments, this is where software can help :slight_smile: There are a lot of project management tools on the web, such as Trello and Smartsheet, that can help to organize in a way that ensures we’re staying on task and not missing those critical paths. Smartsheet in particular (even though I hate its UI for project management) has built in critical-path logic based on the dependencies you enter in your waterfall diagram. If I were doing this myself, I would map out all those tasks on Trello, put them into specific lanes to categorize them (most likely based on the stakeholders needed to accomplish them so I can map any “handoffs” I need to do, which is typically where errors occur), and then prioritize them into Trello with their dependencies. What’s also nice about that method is you can put in the estimated time to completion for each task, and let the software then tell you when it thinks you’ll be done.

And, of course, each goal here can always be broken into sub-tasks and sub-goals, so if we Russian Doll the whole thing, we can break a HUGE effort into bite-sized pieces that will work at the individual holon level.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful. Maybe what I’m saying is that Integralism needs a really talented project manager? :smile:


#139

Sounds like someone wants to build some Conveyor Belt in the world!
Very interested to see the architecture of the plan!


#140

I agree and I’ll use the analogy of a few commonly used Jungian Archetypes.

I think evaluating thigs as a “software problem” appeals to a “Magician” archetype. We can stand behind a curtain and work some kind of magic to transform society. Which is neither good, bad, right or wrong - except it is not always the most practical way in every circumstance.

What is lacking from this approach is when direct action is necessary. The most obvious weakness of the magician is when the curtain is pulled away by a little dog Toto. Or in fantasy movies, when the Red / Infrared / Crimson Anti-hero Conan the Barbarian just chops off the Magician’s head with a sword.

So in the vein of “What the Integral Movement Needs Next” is an ability and willingness to more readily step out of the Magician Behind the Curtain meme.
“Software Programming” is one tool, but is not always the best and sometimes may be the worst.