The Regression of Jordan Peterson, Dave Rubin, Thomas Sowell - Rebel Wisdom


#1

I’m comforted to see that Ken and I were thnking along similar lines regarding Jordan Peterson a few years back. I wasn’t aware of Ken’s position on Jordan Peterson specifically until now.
I also see a silver lining that at least one person at Rebel Wisdom has identified the trend of “Culture War Click Bait”. Ironically I see Rebel Wisdom itself as a publisher of that kind of content.

Anti-Green is not Integral. Instead, those at Green who got caught up in the Culture Wars and became Anti-Green, regressed to earlier stages. This regreassion went back to rational and scientific at best to tribalistic and agressive or as we see post 2020 and increased willingness towards violence and normalization of Conspiracy Theory Click Bait (including Rebel Wisdom) and even normalization of Alt-Right public figures.

What is interesting is that Ken says that this is important, and that these “Center Right” or Alt Right pre-Green views do need to be integrated. However, what often happened in these cases is that they were unable to find an Integral position because they are unable to Integrate Green (Left).

In terms of numbers, Ken gives the percentage at 25% that entered Green, but only .5% who progressed to Integral, with a large number regressing back to Pre-Green. One criticism of Ken here is that I believe he conflates what he sees in the United States with humanity as a whole. Imyself do not believe that 25% of the worldwide population ever entered Green, but this is only a number that represents Western Democracies, and the .5% number is I believe true in the United States but my opinion is that it is higher in other economically advanced Democracies.


#2

Have they regressed to earlier stages? My understanding is that regression is rare and usually attributed to methodological limitations in developmental literature.
Unhealthy Green can appear similar to Red, but it doesn’t mean that those at Green have regressed to Red. Also, there are many Blue conformists who have joined the cultural movement initiated by those at Green and Red opportunists exploiting the movement for egotistical reasons. This may appear as if those at Green had regressed to Blue (tribalism) or Red, but they have not.
If you know any studies that suggest such regression is possible (besides cases of severe brain damages and things of that sort), could you post the references? I’d love to learn about such cases.

As for Rebel Wisdom being clickbaity, they don’t come across to me as being motivated primarily by clicks and views. I don’t agree with some of the analyses of Jordan Peterson in the video but it’s good to point out the blind spots of individuals, especially those of influential figures.


#3

I hope Ken is doing well. He seems to not be as vigorous as in previous interviews.

Can you guys point to the .5% (or was it 5% or 10%) at an Integral stage that we should be following?

His analysis might have been fine for an Integral familiar crowd, not so much for a general audience. It did come across as somewhat cultist and disassociated from reality. These comments seem to be overwhelming shared through many of the well considered YT comments as well.

It also seemed a bit disengenious that Ken kept trying to conflate JBP, Rubin, Elder and Sowell. It seemed like classic internet manipulation to “get clicks” or book sales.

Also agree with you Ray that Ken, just as all Neo meta post modernists seemingly want to “fix” the pinnacle of human development (US, West). Mechanics enjoy changing the cabin hepa filter on a Rolls rather than cleaning the dung from on the donkeys hooves.

I do agree the Peterson seems stressed right now and coming out on the warpath a bit. Which having some understanding of the “highly developed green elite” attempt to destroy him, it’s no surprise really.
Maybe the Progressives should brace for a “little of their own medicine”. Is the government program funding for activist NGO and progressive activism "safe? Might need to look for a real job. Can you illegally ballot harvest with impunity? They’re getting charged and convicted in AZ. Are journalists going to be held to basic standards for liable and slander? Many national media are currently unemployed. Will Sexual Groomers be charged with pedophilia by local and state police? Will the Social Justice DAs and Mayor’s get “cancelled” for their destruction of basic “Orange” rule of law and subsequently their communities?

I know here in AZ anti-Woke is actially printed on campaign signs on the street corners, meanwhile massive out of state funding flows in from this supposed “highly developed global Green” elite, all which is reported immediately.

Regression? Or Shadow Work or Waking Up or Cleaning Up or Growing up is perhaps more your individual perspective than any factual assessment. But that’s the beauty in the Neo post modern mindset- you can just make schizzle up.


#4

He specifically says Jordan Peterson has Regressed. It’s important to not say anything more than that, as in making JP a representative of one side of a Culture War and denying he regressed merely because of a matching political affiliation. Specifically with JP, he has absolutely Denied Green and sided against Green. This isn’t just a shadow of Green. A shadow Green would be if you claim to be Green but act subconsciously and automatically, without awareness in ways that are the opposite of Green. When you actively and consciously act counter to Green, it is no longer “shadow”. In the case of Jordan Peterson, it isn’t that he is unhealthy Green appearing to be Orange - he has repudiated Green and is operating at Orange, and I will add his Shadows that I see are Orange (Intellectual / Academic) Shadows, not Green Shadows.
Green Shadows, for example are being secretly and unconsciously racist rather than multicultural, secretly and unconsciously individualistic, or unconsciously consumer oriented and so on.
JP’s shadows are in the academic realm. We know this because this is where he gets most upset, when he is attacked academically and intellectually and when his reputation is threatened. These are all Orange shadows. Someone at Green could care less about these things.

On the subject of Clickbait, Youtube encourages it and many Youtube publishers will tell you that it’s necessary to have a “clickbaity” title to get as amny people as possible. The question isn’t if Rebel Wisdom uses clickbait. The point I would make is that if you don’t realize it is clickbait, then you are being subconsciously manipulated and don’t even understand how you are being manipulated.

For myself, I find it easier to identify people who are “Not Integral”. This is usually very easy. In order to determine if a person is Integral I’d have to observe them quite a bit both with their public face on and in candid moments. It’s very easy to present a mask to the public that is not genuine.

So disqualifiers for me in showing who is not Integral is pretty easy:

  • They have to have some level of Spiritual Development (Waking Up). If they haven’t yet learned to maintain a level of spiritual awareness 24/7, then they have not achieved 33% of the requirement for Integral.
  • Anyone who operates in Anger, Fear or Greed is obviously not Integral (Cleaning Up). If their content is based in the motivations of being “against” a group of people, and stoking the fires of fear, anger or greed in their audience - this isn’t Integral. So for sure, Rebel Wisdom is definitely not Integral content.
  • This means of course that most political commentators are not going to be Integral, on either side of the debate. The only way to do this would be to invite guests from both sides of the Culture Wars and equally both critique and give them voice. Kind of like Joe Rogan does or more Old School, Howard Stern. Not that these two are Integral, but an Integral Political Media Personality would have to have the breadth of guests from all sided of various debates that they have.

I see this as part of the cycle of people stuck in 1st Tier, but I also have to point out that this is the opposite of Integral. As I’ve said for the past year or more, Anti-Woke isn’t Integral - it’s just the Shadow of Woke.
The next part of your post is an example of how deeply you are entrenched in the Culture War. Anger, fear and Greed. Fear of Greens stuffing ballot boxes and sex groomers, anger that the left participates in capitalism and have jobs, greed for government funding - all these things place you firmly on one side of the culture war and cause you to see only one side, which I see as huge shadows in your writing here.
“Are journalists going to be held to basic standards for libel and slander?” - well, we will see how Dominion vs FOX news goes.
“Can you illegally ballot harvest with impunity?” What evidence do you have that I or anyone else is actually ballot harvesting? You can falsely accuse me, and if you were to publish it with my real name or the name of anyone specifically, then we could go back to the Dominion vs FOX issue and see if you are liable for slander and libel.
Can you post links to actual cases where ballot harvesters are convicted? I have seen several stories where Republicans have been convicted and sentenced to voter fraud. I would be interested if you have actual facts of more than 10 Democrats being convicted?
DA’s are an elected position, so I don’t consider voting to be “Cancelling”. I’m not sure what you are referring to about DA’s being “cancelled”. Without other information, I’d call that “Democracy”.

Mine and Kens perspective, arrived at independently, but yes. We don’t have a scientifically based way to identify Integral with hard data


#5

If you want to laser focus on JBP, as opposed to the significant Integral “assessment” that Ken shared you can do that. It would miss much of Ken’s discussion where he specifically used his assessment of JBP to build a Strawman which he could use to represent or act at a minimum as an analogy for his Integral framing of the culture wars.

I’m not sure you, nor Ken for that matter, have actually spent much time with JBP. His premise regarding plurality in my understanding goes something like, while all cultures and perspectives bring amazing richness to the world, it would be a Fools Errand to assume all cultures, societies, ideologies, religions, perspectives yield equivilent results. i.e. Some societal structures are better for the most humans than others. Some religions treat the most humans better than other religions. You are saying that JBP is “anti-Green”, when perhaps he has transcended Green. Or perhaps you conflate his acknowledgement that hard working Orange men should clean up their rooms, make their beds and not settle for lives of sub-servitude to Woke Identity Marxist idealogs. Do you see failing to “submit” as “anti”?

What I have found is that most people that kibbitz about JBP (or Sowell) actually have little experience with them, but have derived almost all of the “knowledge” from like-minded Far Left “critics”. I would recommend spending perhaps several unabated hours listening to JBP before assuming he’s one thing or another.

One thing we might want to compare/contrast is Ken’s experience vs JBP’s. JBP has a PhD in Psychology, has practiced 10,000’s of hours in both individual and clinical settings, in order to form his understandings. His patients have spanned healthy working class people with slight mommy issues to extremely high performing leaders in their fields to high ranking government officials to the criminally insane. Yes, sitting one on one with them working to help them have better lives. He then over decades of very high performing work in Psychology has “gotten lucky” in the Internet game developing M’s of followers and interviewing/speaking with domain experts across many many disciplines.

Contrast this with Wilber. After dating a wealthy woman for several years, he then married a wealthy heiress, inheriting her wealth when she passed so tragically early. Wilber never needed to generate his own income. He also has lived his life as a “philosopher”, analyzing “demographics” without ever actually needing to interact with any of “them”. To my knowledge he has never “worked among the people” that he so carefully categorizes. And I am still sad that Ken seemed not 100% in the RW interview.

This doesn’t help those of us looking for the next Integral guru to spend time with. I would caution that your approach very well could be fraught with self-reaffirming egocentric traps. She’s not white, he’s not straight, he’s not, she’s not, they’re not, etc… Most spiritual and life coaches recommend setting a positive path as opposed to a negative or “not that” path.

This lady plead guilty in order to stop the investigation and subpoenas.


Previously I had “subscribed” to Rebel Wisdom, but found them lacking in depth. It’s been months since I last viewed an episode. I found the Ken / JBP Strawman book announcement on Rebel Wisdom from you Ray. Ray, you’ve supplanted the Google algorithms for me. :wink:

That’s the beauty of Neo Post Modernism, aka Integral Theory in our case, that you can just make up schizazzle and run with it.

When looking for a quick shower and shave podcast this morning I listened to this. I know you won’t listen in, but Peterson doesn’t do much circle jerking in his assessments like you see in new post meta Marxist circles.


#6

That is literally the topic I posted and what Ken was talking about - a laser focus on JP.
Can you explain to me how this is a Straw Man besides your trying yourself to expand it out to other people?

I’ve listened to quite a bit of JP over the past 10 years. So you are incorrect. The reason we “Kibbitz” about JP is that people keep trying to say that he is Integral, when he clearly is not.
Rather than comparing JP to Ken (Apples and Oranges), I would compare a person who I consider Integral and also a practicing Health Practitioner - Gabor Mate.
Who cares if JP practiced psychology in the past? I have a friend who is a Doctor and used to practice medicine. And he almost got himself killed by joining the Anti-vax crusade.
Past performance does not guarantee effectiveness in the present or future.

Finding a Guru is very specific. I could (and I already have) recommended my Gurus - and you have outright rejected them wholescale because you labelled me a “Leftist, Marxist, anti-Christian” etc early on. You are not sincerely looking for a Guru anyway, so I call BS. You are looking for enemies to wage your culture war against.

But here we will go again - groups and organizations I go to in order to progress toward Integral:


#7

I’ll point out that this is classic Shadow Work. You are so dead set to find Voter Fraud in Democrats that you are probably completely unaware of Republican cases, and don’t recognize that this isn’t “widespread”, has gone on for decades with people being prosecuted in every election and it didn’t influence the actual result of the Electoral College votes at all.

Here are some Republicans for you:



https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-02-10/trump-backer-4-others-charged-with-voter-fraud-in-wisconsin







https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2021/02/16/murphys-law-10-republicans-accused-of-voter-fraud/

We already had the discussion about this site, if you remember:


#8

@FermentedAgave
Ok, I’m going to take you to task (again) about just reposting stuff that you were to lazy to read and figure out for yourself.

This link you posted is about Tucker Carlson says stuff about a Report, but when you actually read the report it clearly states they can’t find anything.
Page 7:

Accordingly, at this stage, the recommendations included in this Report largely fall
within the umbrella of enabling oversight and transparency of our election systems. It
draws no conclusions about specific, unauthorized outside interference or insider threats to machine voting,

Bold added for emphasis.


#9

I was just wondering about the possibility of regression in general. Did those who have supposedly regressed actually regress, or do we just mistake someone’s developmental stage so that it appears as though regression had occurred?
Speaking of Jordan Peterson, he reads about and understands postmodernism conceptually but doesn’t seem to have embrace the philosophy, even before the supposed regression occurred. I wonder if he has ever been at Green in the first place. Most of what he values and has taught over the years, such as setting goals, hard work, and achievement, characterize the Orange stage. So I agree with you that his weaknesses stem primarily from the limitations of Orange.


#10

Hmm… Ken also circulated much on Red and Orange and Integral and Green - lots of Integral jargon that frankly sounded disconnected from reality for anyone except a well steeped Integral Theory audience. Also nothing really new from what I could tell. Ken then looked to use JBP (and Sowell and Rubin and Elder) as surrogates for his cultural assessment, which has some validity since JBP has such a large audience.

Great. Hope you got something or validation for current thinkings out of spending the time with JBP.

Thanks for the Gabor Mate mention - loving this one with Tim Ferriss (linked).
Regression analysis is a very powerful tool.

Thanks. Through our Church we have a group that seemingly similar to The Mankind Project - male, compassionate, mature masculinity, accountable, responsible. With a focus on doing real things in the real world for real people. Helps ground the woowoo esoteric when you look into someone’s eyes and smile together. Very motivating :slight_smile:

I’ll give the Kabbalah.info a spin. Ties in real well with my current study of Middle Eastern and Ancient Civilization history. Also had me start watching “Noah” starring Russell Crowe.
And will work into the sadhguru, intergralzen, meditativemellows and awakeninsight. Your systems-thinking is something you’ve shared in the past. Given my systems training, I liked it back when you first shared it.

On the Election Violations - I don’t care what party does it. Until we change our forum of government to a Teal Marxist structure it’s imperative we have 1 legally cast vote for 1 legally registered eligible voter.
While we won’t lock everyone up, putting the fear of the law into everyone alone should help clean things up.

I’m really curious to see how the upcoming elections go in Arizona (one of the Big Lie states, right?) now that at least a handful of people have been investigated and charged, NGO involvement and funding into elections has been clearly outlawed, and 100,000’s of Conservatives have become politically active as election volunteers, poll watchers, and simply cell phone videographers of anything suspect. It’s clear assuming everyone has Libertarian values was naive at best.


#11

@hiromitsu
You had me also think of a speaker adjusting their language and messages for their target audience.
Would he use different language in a discussion with Corey, Salzman, and Doshi than in conversation with me? Of course he would. Would this be a clear sign that Ken has “regressed”?
Would it be fair to assume if we do see his language shift to identify this as “regression” or simply using the language most appropirate for his audience at the time?

I know Peterson actually does try to speak with and too those we wouldn’t consider philosophical elite. While I’m sure Ken does try to bridge to those of us at a lower level, he clearly isn’t targeting the mass population.
We’ve discussed here many many times. Integral Theory, as is done here on Integral Life, is predominantly for the Integral and Cognitive elite (top 2%).

I’ve listened to almost everything I can find from both Ken and JBP. Ken is a philosophical “assessor” who’s inherited wealth has enabled his controlled hermetic lifestyle. JBP is infinitely more broad having embraced roles with highly uncontrolled interaction - university professor, clinical psychologist, interviewer of those with significantly more domain knowledge than himself on the domains in discussion. Meanwhile Ken’s modus operandi is to compare/contrast to maps that he himself has derived.

A Communist JBP is clearly not, so he likely appears regressive to today’s Progressives. Just as with many of the IL community, it just coincidentally shows up that if you don’t agree politically then you’re regressive, lower altitude, stuck in the shadows, or outright gaslighting with psychological disparagement. Meanwhile a proponent of Western Civilization would “assess” a Collectivist as regressive, perhaps not so much on ideological grounds but on the grounds of “Collectivism has led to genocide every time it’s been tried”.
JBP would never claim to be “Integral” if Integral equates to Collectivism.


#12

While I understand your concern, I didn’t join this particular conversation to criticize Ken’s character or question his motive behind his assessment of JP. I was more interested in the fundamental nature of development, whether regression is an inherent part of development or anomaly, how to make an accurate assessment of someone’s stage, etc.
I’m quite new to this community and don’t know how Ken treats IL members. You seem quite critical of him and the Integral community. Have you perhaps had some negative experience here? I simply don’t know enough about Ken or the community to discuss that sort of stuff I’m afraid. I’m happy to talk about and explore the nature of development though!


#13

Carry on @hiromitsu :pray::pray:


#14

This isn’t “Integral Cannon” - just my own views.
I think regression is common, but not “natural” or inevitable. I think regression is all about Shadows dragging a person back unconsciously through unhealthy emotions. So there’s a few things here.

  • Unhealthy emotions like anger, fear and greed are beacons that light up if it is regression as opposed to a natural cycle. From what I have seen, Ken has never expressed these traits.
  • Our society at large places high value on anger, fear and greed - so it’s very difficult for normal people to spot it as anything other than normal behavior. This is where the insidiousness of JP’s narrative kicks in. As a culture our first instinct when someone says something about us we don’t like is to attack them. So multiply that and we have our culture war. Some women didn’t like how they were treated and said some men were bad. More men internalized that than probably should have and attack the women who said they don’t like some men’s behavior. JP said some things some people in academia didn’t like and they said bad things about JP. JP’s response was to respond by attacking all feminists and all liberals, who then responded in a similar way. Then JP started to get fearful for his livelihood and claimed victim status. He always claims he was viscously attacked almost every time he talks. Even more men appealed to this victim status and felt that makes it ok to attack anything resembling postmodernism and even the most viscous attacks are fair game (because feminists called JP bad names, I guess?) So this to me shows regression. JP stays in Orange but his audience very often goes further back.
  • JP’s content years ago was much more "green’, before he was “attacked” by the left and he reacted in anger, fear and greed. This is why some people feel he is “Integral” - because he has some content that integrates one or two aspects of Green with Orange. I would say he had one slice of the green pie integrated with Orange, but then when he felt threatened he threw that slice away.
  • In the waking up process, there is something called the “Dark Night of The Soul”. This could be what you are referring to when you are talking about mistaking someone’s developmental stage appears as regression to others. But I would say that this “Dark Night of the Soul” is regression, and it’s due to the individual following processes that worked in the past but do not work as one “Wakes Up” in higher levels. Waking Up to higher levels requires accepting both Sadness and Joy, but our culture teaches us to hide sadness, sadness is somehow wrong, and to cover or push back sadness with Fear, Anger and Consumption (Greed). This isn’t Integral Theory, but my own explorations.

I think this is more your desire to expand this to a cultural assessment than Ken’s. As we say in Shadow Work, if you spot it, you got it.

Maybe this will make sense to you, then: The whole Culture War thing, on both sides, is “Shifting the Burden” https://www.systems-thinking.org/theWay/ssb/sb.htm
The Culture Wars do not address the systemic problems in American Culture, and so any conflict inevitably only comes back again.
We can apply this to Elections. I’ve known since 1990 that the electoral system we use to elect leaders is a croc. Radical Leftists have been screaming about this for decades. Now when the Right believes they have discovered something new and elections are not fair, they blame the left and accuse widespread voter fraud. But you are not looking deeply enough at the root causes because it’s easier to react with Anger at your perceived enemies. You believe that winning elections will fix this, when it never has in that past. AZ was Republican Red for decades. If their system is corrupt, it has it’s basis in the time when it was Red. Going back to Republican Red isn’t going to solve a problem that existed the last time it was Red, lol.
On a more personal and humorous level - I don’t really expect much ability to think logically or rationally from people who settle in a valley where it’s normal to reach well over 120 degrees in the shade and no local water supply. So I see AZ as a collection of people who ignore reality whether they are the Sedona Hippy types or the AR 15 and Battle Armor Open Carry to Hooters crowd. You all have a few screws loose. For me the Big Lie in AZ is that it’s a sensible place to live, lol.

Lol This is pretty important, and I would say the root of the issue.
It’s a complete refusal to accept responsibility for one’s own baggage and to instead blame someone else and an exterior group of people.
Blame Progressives for everything. When that does not solve core issues, do it again in 10 years, and again in another 10. I’ve hear the same nonsense from Republicans my entire life all the way back to when I first heard Rush Limbaugh in 1990, and even before that.
Just more “shifting the burden” - blame something that isn’t the problem then revisit the same thing again and again and again and never figure out why the problem isn’t solved.
image


#15

I would think some level of “regression” is natural but perhaps not predestined. Think of it as learning to golf, then to find that you have ingrained some flaws, suboptimal characteristics - shadows if you will - in your swing. So you take two steps backwards to reincorporate better ideals before moving on.

Integral Theory’s primary hypothesis of increasing Collectivism leading to predictions of a Communistic Nirvana (but without the flaws of previous tryies) is based on the natural world - atoms forming molecules forming compounds forming living organisms, etc - then extrapolated into a Human Collective Hivemind run by an Expertocracy.

And these systemic problems are defined as problems based upon a comparison to an every shifting Nirvana. Zero Carbon will save the planet, if only we set the example (and I’m sure the 4Billion people in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Africa, and South America will follow). EV’s are happening with or without massive Progressive mandates, and naturally at a rate our Electric Grid build out can handle. You can find a diagram on your system-thinking site that shows similar examples.
So why an All Branches, At All Costs implementation of Zero Carbon as fast as possible? Consolidation of power at the Federal level with an irreversable destruction of economic freedom from the bottom up. In reality EV’s would happen “naturally” without damage to our economy, individual freedoms, or destruction of the working classes.
So is it “regression” to say something like “Let market forces create the innovations, manufacturing, infrastructure deployments at a natural rate.”

LOL. Are all “disagreements” something out of my personal shadows? Is anything less than agreement “anger”?

LOL. Can’t really disagree with this as we are enjoying 110/95 highs and lows. I’m buying property on Maui and plan on starting construction next year.

So being Pro Western and Anti Marxist is the root cause? Can’t really disagree with you. LOL.


#16

If you can extract yourself from the immediacy of it and look at it from a systems perspective, actually - yes.

Imagine three brothers. One is 100% only going to listen to himself and is completely against anything his youngest brother says. His youngest brother is also 100% only going to listen to himself and is 100% against his older brother.
Will this family ever be able to thrive or live at peace?
Will the middle brother ever find peace in this family, or is he better off leaving?
Will the family find peace if the older brother and younger brother alternatively convince the middle brother to take one side or the other?

No, the dynamic is inherently destined to fail time and time again.
So yes, being Pro Western and Anti Marxist with no room for compromise or adjustment is in fact the root cause when we look at it from a systems perspective.

I’m not really concerned about the zero carbon issue. It’s more of a false flag debate for both sides to get excited about without addressing key issues. Either humanity will destroy its ability to live in an environment or it won’t. Certain inhabited areas are more at risk than others, and when these fail with increasing regularity the strain of increasing natural disasters in areas humans were never intended to live will either force a change in our global economy or the whole thing will push beyond its limits and crash with billions starving. All this zero carbon, sustainability and everything related to it is just so much playing shuffleboard on the titanic. The fact is even zero growth is not sustainable when we have 8 billion humans on the planet. That’s the key issue - we have 8 billion people and this planet cannot support 8 billion people in the long term. Studies show that a realistic number is 2 billion for the planet. Worse, we have no plan to reduce the 8 billion number so the reduction will happen as a result of plans going wrong, aka calamities. When this happens the number will drop far below 2 billion and earth will then start to be a pleasant place to live and the carbon problem will be solved. The only question is - how to survive the calamitous period?

Maui is nice. It’s somewhere between the rawness of the Big Island and the Overdeveloped Urban Oahu.


#17

Do you think the US is more socialist today than it was in the 1700’s? Would you consider this development or regression?

And my broken record question is, why is it that Integralist’s (really all Progressives) want to play academic what-if-we-tried-Marxism-again-I-promise-it-won’t-lead-to-genocide-just-like-every-other-try games with the US, when there are +4B people living in “low altitude” societal situations on the plant?

Bangladesh, India, China, Indonesia, Congo, Nigeria, Pakistan are all MASSIVE developmental opportunities to “create change” and up level vast swaths of humanity. What if the world 10 years from now had 1B people lifted from Red into Orange altitudes?

Great spear fishing, excellent weather, good airport, and nearby Walmarts - Mahalos!


#18

You tell me - was Native American Soceity pre-genocide more communal or more capitalist? Was the next 300 years progress or regression? We can look at this from either the White or the Native American perective, which might or might not be similar ot different.

In the 1700’s the 13 Colonies were just a small sliver of people on the East Coast.

That would be my point - all my White Liberal friends are all into Shamanism, Natural Healing, Herbalism, Sweat Lodges, “Plant Medicine” friendly events, and blah blah blah. Nobody talks about communism for 30 years. You are arguing against Liberals 30 years ago, not Liberals in 2022.

If I get to pick the dates, I would compare 1920 with 2020. I would say that we are more socialist now, because otherwise Capitalism would have collapsed in 2020 without 12 trillion in stimulus money and we would now be in another Great Depression. Yes, Socialism got us out of the first Great Dpression and prevented the Second in 2020. But here’s the thing - I don’t see it as better. It’s propping up a system doomed to fail because - again - we are ignoring the big 8 billion people problem. It’s physically impossible for everyone on the planet to live the average American Lifestyle. There simply isn’t enough acreage for meat on the entire planet, and that’s just one example. The American LIfestyle can only exist if we use other countrie’s territory as our resource to raise meat and so on.
The idea that economic development will lead to global enlightenment (leveling up) is nonsense, because look at the United States. Economic development has merely created hundreds of millions of people who are unable to think in even the simplest terms.


#19

I’ll contribute a few pennies here.

On regression: Isn’t regression a temporary aspect of the overall evolutionary process, whether in individuals or cultures? Emphasis on “temporary.” And regression can be endogenous in nature (e.g. a person with an internal brain injury) or exogenous, caused by external factors, or, a combination of both. I think the point Ken was making about JP is that “when attacked,” JP did regress; paraphrasing Ken’s words, perhaps “did not consciously think through” (the situation and appropriate responses), but perhaps had “an interior rebellion” and regressed a stage or two, becoming a “cultural warrior” himself rather than trying to better integrate the warring sides. I did not hear Ken or David saying that the stage that JP regressed to is now his permanent or even long-term stage ‘station.’ Regression can be fairly common in individuals when under the stress of tension or conflict, hopefully a short-term situation.

Re: the percentages Ken quoted for Integral stage: when he cited 0.5%, he was referring to the turquoise Integral stage. When he cited 8-9%, he was referring to both teal and turquoise Integral stages. How are these figures derived? Again, numerous developmental theorists have done “direct research on real humans” (Ken’s words in this video); these are empirical studies from many different theorists who discovered in their research percentages at different stages. Here is an example from Susanne Cook-Greuter’s stages of ego development as an example:
https://maxoutwithmason.com/2021/08/16/susanne-cook-greuters-9-stages-of-ego-development
While not every theorist uses the term ‘integral’ for its higher/highest stages (and some do), there are correlations between these multiple studies in different areas, which Wilber’s book “Integral Psychology” illustrates quite well.

I don’t believe John Locke, Francis Bacon, or Thomas Hobbes spent a lot of time kibitzing with the “mass population” either, yet these were the intellectuals who helped bring the orange-rational stage/view into the world. Same with Derrida and Foucault, intellectuals instrumental and behind the green-postmodern stage’s arrival. You really need to let this criticism of Wilber go, don’t you think?


#20

I perhaps wasn’t so precise in my language. Peterson presents himself vulnerably, often, publicly across vast knowledge domains. Peterson also looks into discussion topics intentionally such that “commoners” can take in the concepts and benefit. Having had the benefit of listening to many hours of Peterson’s discussions, his public discussions on YT are with leading edge thinkers across vast knowledge domains. Just pull his YT channel video list and pick a topic - he likely has one of the world’s preeminent thinker on the channel - psychedelics, atheism, religion, Islam, Christianity, psychology, sociology, quantum physics, mental health, communism, capitalism, politics, you name it.

Meanwhile Ken is a classic philosopher developing insights “about” others compared against his own “map” of “everything”, Integral Theory. Those that you mention might very well have led lives more in line with Ken’s “pure philosopher”. Meanwhile Peterson might better be compared to the Greek philosophers that lived and operated in the real world as well. Interesting discussion topic.

Is it not at least somewhat “Green altitude” that society (or individuals) are incorporating ancient traditions into modern life?

I don’t think it fair to conflate today’s Left with Liberalism. Today’s Left doesn’t exhibit classic Liberal ideals. From what basis would you consider today’s Leftist idealogies as coming from? Many show a very simple timeline from today’s Identity politics to Marxist, including many of the Leftist’s themselves.
Would you consider today’s left more Marxist or more Individualistic in foundations?

We don’t have the benefit of seeing what “Plan B” would have accomplished in either the 1930’s nor the Covid Crisis. Personally I don’t like making claims that are untestable nor verifiable. That sound find of dogmatic and political.
Case in point is a very simple “Plan B” in 2020. If we would have “followed the science”, protected our most vulnerable while we “flattened the curve”, and kept society running with the single initial stimulus where would we be now? We have seen little difference between States or Countries that closed down completely and those that kept running.
How’s our current Plan A for Zero Carbon, Racial/Sexual Equity, at any and all costs impacting you, your family, and your communities? What’s so sad, is EVs, Solar, Wind, Civil Rights were all happening anyway. Just that they were happening at a digestible rates for both the economy and society. So sad really and so unnecessary…