Tyranny in Europe?



When the government knows everything about you that’s tyranny …
When we know everything about the government that’s democracy.

Where are we headed with democracy in the west?

To our EU community members is this propaganda or a genuine transparency effort?



Honestly, that’s a trash site hoping to cash in on the current epidemic of cognitive decline.

I find it really strange when the uninformed in the US only cherry pick EU politics without even knowing the basics about the EU.

First - the EU is not and never has been a Democratically elected organization, lol. It’s an Economic Union.

It’s important to note that the EU and most EU countries they do not have the same “Bill of Rights” that we have in the US. All those rights we fought our American Revolution in 1776 to get … most of Europe doesn’t have. They are Democracies - but do not have our constitution. Most EU countries you have ALWAYS required extensive documentation in all aspects of your life. Bureaucratic “tyranny” has always been the norm in EU countries. For example, there is no EU law that guarantees the “right to privacy” or the “right to freedom from searches”.

Ironically, the Nationalist Right used and encouraged this in decades past in attempts to keep the EU white and keep out black and brown immigrants from the Middle East and Africa. Hungary was one of the worst.
What they are now saying is increased controls over the population are tyranny if it’s to fight a pandemic, but more governmental controls over the population are ok if it keeps out “undesirables”.


For some reason this reminds me of Star Treks Prime Directive - do not influence less primitive societies. Perhaps a very near example would be mainland Billionaires aggressively acquiring Kauai.
Is there an equivalent idea around more developed societies vetting incoming populations as perhaps Hungary :hungary: does?

I heard a very simplistic thinking on what borders are - We could consider a border as where good ideas begin and bad ideas end. Immigration flow is rarely balanced in both directions which would indicate people readily comprehend which is which.
Does humanity crave higher altitudes?


You know Kauai is not a “primitive society”, don’t you? lol
I don’t see the parallels except some kind divisions and classification systems for human beings you have in your mind that bear no semblance to actual reality.

Where your concept of “borders = good ideas” breaks down is the simple fact that the people who have to abide by borders are not the ones who made the rules. Those who make the rules are not limited by the borders.

Let’s talk real here - borders are to keep populations corralled. The humor of Americans is they don’t see they are chattel and the borders keep them under control - until something like COVID shows them how quickly those controls can crash down into place. That’s what all this freakout over COVID is about - the dull-witted chattel sensed some of the more obvious cages for mere seconds.

If you have money or political clout you have more keys to open more doors through more gates in those corrals. In the past a US Passport was like a first class upgrade, but in my lifetime I see that deteriorating. White skin has also been a good meal ticket in many areas of the world. This isn’t any kind of liberal ideology - just the reality of travel abroad and being welcome with open arms in most of my travels.
The wealthy don’t even have to deal with the unwashed masses and have even more freedom of movement.

Here’s a humorous interview with a Brexiter who didn’t quite understand that stronger UK borders would limit her movement.


It is true, that the EU was not democratically constituted and is based on economic interests, but we have a European Parlament where the members are democratically elected. How far they have any influence is a different question. The same is valid for our national parliaments which are overridden in this period of history by dictatorial - and at times not elected state leaders.

We don’t have the American constitution, but every country has its constitution, and they are very valid and equal that of the US. What we are living now is a total disrespect of our constitutions and a strong tendency of our governments into the fascist direction. In my opinion this doesn’t just come about per chance. What is behind all that is open to debate and to what comes forth slowly, slowly where everyone can draw their conclusions.


You’ve vectored to a different topic than “borders”, the relationship citizens have with their governments - but that’s ok. Absolutely agree that COVID restrictions have “shown the light” to many people regarding government restrictions. I don’t have your fatalist view and wouldn’t want to use highly loaded terms like “chattel” (definition isn’t as bad as common usage). Sure we have agreements with our government - some directly beneficial, some people don’t like, some seemingly arbitrary, some oppressive (Patriot Act, COVID restrictions, etc). Great news is that with our Liberal Democratic Republic, we vote in or out local, state, congress, presidents based on how we think they are doing based on direction (legislation) and effectiveness (administration of local, state, federal). It’s messy and it takes a few years, but having something other than an instantaneous populist system we do have and are required to take time to ruminate, discuss, negotiate things.

You tend to have a common basis for many of your comments as seen by this one:

Do you think a nation should vet, accept, decline, and/or monitor those that cross their national borders? I know you see this as fundamentally racist - we all get that. Are there other criteria that you might consider to be non-sinister or perhaps even rational and valid for a nation to use when vetting incoming people?


Again - borders are two-way barriers. It’s not a vector at all to say that your US passport allows you travel in many areas, but also restricts your ability to reside everywhere except in the US and areas it maintains a military occupation, like Panama. My link about Brexit was to show this. The UK voted to leave the EU because they didn’t want open borders with EU countries. Well, that means the borders are not open to them, either. It’s extremely funny that you don’t accept this as a basic fact of borders and that you see it as a “vector”.

First - monitoring. I think you are unaware of just how much governments monitor their own populations, lol. You can’t go anywhere in the USA without state-issued identification, and my driver’s license has a microchip in it. You also can’t even conduct normal electronic economic transactions without an ITIN, and holding more than $10,000 in cash is probable cause to investigate a person for possible criminal activity. Regardless of citizenship status, all people within the US are already monitored. In other countries it might be more or less so. The question of whether immigrants should be monitored is irrelevant, because the entire population is monitored. If you think you aren’t, lol. That’s not even getting into monitoring by tech companies (who regularly give access to the military and law enforcement)

I don’t really see that borders are the best way to do things. It’s a pretty 19th century concept for 21st century problems. In my experience living in Europe, the US and Asia - the biggest difficulty is finding a place to live regardless of borders. Within the USA we have no borders, yet the poorest demographics in our country still do not have freedom to live where they want. Landlords require credit checks, proof of steady income above a certain threshold and so on. Not to mention criminal record checks and checking references. The idea that someone can come from a ghetto in India and just move into a nice house in upstate New York is absurd, regardless of passport.
In regards to social benefits - each country makes up their own laws and regulations in this matter. Some countries you can just walk in and get benefits from day 1. Other countries good luck, even for citizens of that country there are obstacles. Like in the USA most States make their own regulations on this matter. Heck, even different counties administer the same law differently. I know here in Honolulu getting EBT is rather difficult and they try to find reasons not to give it, but In Hilo the social workers are actively trying to help people get on EBT. So even the mindset of the employees makes a huge difference even with the same regulations.
Honestly, the reason Hawaii doesn’t have a population of 20 million is because White Americans often experience a great deal of stress when they encounter these socioeconomic barriers. Nobody cares about a resume listing all mainland companies or prestigious mainland Universities, lol. So they take a job making less money than they are used to. Their social network is limited. All that combined with a higher cost of living eventually wears them down until they just leave - unless they make the psychological adjustments necessary to live here for the long term. White Americans often feel this is racist, but it really has nothing to do with skin color. It’s about creating socioeconomic boundaries regardless of what the national borders are borders.

Honestly - what exactly is the problem with people crossing borders? If everyone is monitored, if they cannot use a credit card and are reported to law enforcement for using too much cash, if they cannot get a decent job to pay for rent, or indeed if no one will rent to them - why would immigrants stay there?
Then, from the other side - who exactly is going to pick cabbages and strawberries, clean office building toilets and work in McDonalds? These are market forces. Without a large and cheap labor market for corporations to exploit, employees are in shorter supply and can demand higher wages. This is one major reason why fast food almost doubled in price during the period of the Trump administration. There just aren’t enough legal Americans willing to work those crap jobs, so market forces act to increase prices to give them wages they demand and can force as a result of labor shortages.
It’s hilarious that Democrats have been pushing a $15 minimum wage for almost a decade, and after just one crisis under the bungled leadership of the Trump administration following 4 years of bad policy - market forces have pushed the defacto minimum wage to about $15 and steadily rising. The only thing that will keep this “minimum wage” from rising more would be the free movement of labor.


Yes, of course. In many ways Europeans are more “free” than North Americans.

I think due to the nature of the EU, it’s easier to realize that economic forces have a stronger voice than the people. For example, I think at least half of EU countries have had some kind of popular traditional food “outlawed” - and it was never because of a democratic choice, but was a legal or bureaucratic imposed regulation. When I speak with Europeans I think they are less in denial about these things than people in the US, who mostly seem completely oblivious to the economic “man behind the curtain”.


I wasn’t saying people are chattel to the Government.
These concepts are 30 year old, 1990’s “Matrix” Era ideas.
Maybe your aversion to anything with a hint anti-capitalism prevents you from seeing the issues. I think in your mind you might just lump all these topics together as “Marxism”.
The Matrix is an old, tired analogy - but I guess some people still don’t “get it” after 30 years?
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work… when you go to church… when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind
Bringing it back to borders - they are completely unnecessary when the entire p[population is controlled in ways they can’t see or even understand.


I agree Americans freedom is under threat. If in doubt, find out about what those people that took over the White House have done to this Country in less than a year.


Yes, absolutely. I saw this with expat Americans here in Italy who just couldn’t accept things about their country which for us Europeans are obvious.


I agree with you Alexa, those people that took over the White House have created a disaster in America and they keep trying to overthrow the Constitution which protects individual’s rights and freedoms.
Nevertheless, I was very surprised to see in the primary elections how many people are still voting for democrats!? So either they are not aware of Dems. socialist agenda OR they actually want to lose their rights and freedoms.


There are many people waking up to the craziness. Let 2020 Democrat Presidential candidate Tulsi explain it.


Tulsi was always a DINO - Democrat in name only.
But she’ll quickly find that Republicans across the country won’t accept her, either. I mean, she endorsed Biden.
She seems to be burning her bridge from both ends.
She’s nowhere near Repuplican enough to get mass support of Republicans, and has supported policies throughout her career that are decidely not Democratic. Her foreign policy seems to be pretty muddled like she doesn’t even know what she herself supports. Her religious background will also be a big problem in trying to get support from Republicans - she’s not Christian. Which is fine - I myself sometimes go sing with Hare Krishnas sometimes so I’m not saying she’s doing anything strange for me - but I know it would not make me popular with Republicans if I was runnning for national political office as a Reepublican, lol.


Some would describe that as apposing to Trump. Had she been more supportive of him she might have won as an Independent.

Tulsi is an American Patriot and she is now an Independent not a Republican … she explains the craziness as she sees it. Way more credible than FOX NEWS or any conservative pundit or podcaster.

Her voice is reaching those in the middle politically, who are the plurality of USA voters. According to Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats, 25% identified as Republican, and 41% as Independent.


I’d like to challenge what exactly you mean by this? Is it because she served in the military? Is a person more patriotic if they serve in the Military vs in the Peace Corps or even as a Christian Missionary?
What are some ways to be Patriotic that do not involve killing people in far away lands? Is it flag waving and saying I am more Patriotic than you, for example?

I suspect I could also make the “Patriot” claim for myself. I have a form DD214. I don’t though because I find it annoying that our civilization values killing more than making peace. I don’t think taking a turn on the global meat grinder defines “Patriotic”.

I think she really has an uphill battle and she burned too many bridges. Her ideologies separated more than united, which is why she’s not even a name here in the small state of Hawaii anymore.

I think an Independent HAS to be able to work with both sides of the political spectrum, but Tulsi is against both sides of the political spectrum, lol. Independents have to make alliances and concessions on both sides, a middle ground - not attack both sides, Tulsi seems to be more of a separater than a uniter.

The funny thing about independents is that lots of people SAY they are independent, or identify themselves as independent but when you actually talk to them most clearly fall into one side or the other. Often it’s a kind of self delusion like “I’m a reasonable person. I’m independent and think for myself” but then they 90% of the time vote for the same party, lol. Or another situation is they might be married to someone or have other social links to the “opposing” party, so they just say they are independent. Or they might even be shamed into not publicly supporting the party they tend to vote for. As an example we can look at “Independents” who voted for Obama in 2008 but would never publicly admit it 2 years later, and people who voted for Trump in 2016 but didn’t want to say it openly. Statistics show that in many cases the same person voted for both Obama and for Trump, lol. But they won’t really talk about it. They just say they are “independent” rather than face extreme inconsistencies in their internal decision making.


Your questions seem on target to defining that designation to me. If you served honorably as a part of the military I would recognize you as fitting that Patriot definition too.

Since you fit the label please share your definition. I welcome your insights.


Perhaps we can do it according to Integral levels and Tiers. So Second Tier Patriotism would rise above and subsume but also include the 1st Tier understandings of Patriotism.

Magenta - Red - USA All the way. Just bomb the Middle East into radioactive glass. The only good commie is a dead commie. Basic Marine Infantry brainwashing. Storm the beaches and die for your country in a faraway land.
Amber / Mythic - George Washington never told a lie. When he was asked who chopped down the cherry tree, he said he did. Pilgrims and Indians learned to live together and that’s what Thanksgiving is all about. Heroes like Davie Crockett, Jim Bowie and 100 other Mountain men, Manifest Destiny and This land was made for you and me, from the redwood forest … through the rocket’s red glare the flag was still there, and so on.
Orange Rational - Work hard and pay your taxes and you can live the American dream of a house in the Suburbs with a two car garage. Working 9 to 5, what a way to make a living … the Brady Bunch, etc.
Green Pluralistic. - Believing that America is a place where differences bring us together and make us Great. The freedom to follow one’s own path - not what one portion of society says is the only right way. America is All religions, not just Protestant. We can only be great if all races have equal opportunity and freedom.


Tulsi’s words are her opinion of course. I found them to be a fresh voice in a sea of ideological standoffs among Patriots of all colors and tiers.

I think you articulately addressed this challenge question @raybennett … Thank you!

Especially for doing so without conflict and challenge but with discourse and rationality. This is the type of conversation we need to have more of here on this platform. ~ Peace :slight_smile: