Thanks @excecutive . I enjoy and appreciate your inclusive perspectives.
Here is an interesting Salzman interview honoring Western Civilization foundations for Integral. Could almost be a Victor Davis Hansen interview. Lol.
I still am searching for real-world non-academic justification to make the leap from Democracy (best gig in all of history) to Collectivism (100% success at creating misery). The search continues…
Thanks @excecutive . I enjoy and appreciate your inclusive perspectives.
The people who are leading the Corona committee are lawyers and international connected. They have filed and are filing law suites, also class action. But I cannot say if they are connected with the people of your link. There were many lawyers from several countries in the hearings. Already 60 hearings of 5+ hours each. I cannot remember the names, but I am glad and really impressed about the courageous people who are speaking up.
I am not in search of any better system than we have in America … Rather than a pure democracy which is just majority rules. Our political system puts the supreme power upon the citizenry that is entitled to vote for its representatives and officers responsible to them.
America as a democracy is defined as the government of the people and by the people exercised through elected or directed representatives. The strength of the American democracy is that it respects the individual rights of citizens, not a communism or collective, but on individual states rights and the right to private property.
In addition a caring collective is the solution to a better society. The problems as I see them are in the hearts of those in power … they who will do anything, including subverting and misinforming, happy to make all concession to maintain their power. We the citizens vote these fools into office or we seem to be okay to manipulate elections to come out our preferred way.
Today the patterns of arguments and disconnections seem to run through everything. We cannot even find common agreement in America, how will we ever find common agreement with China, or the rest of the world? There are no political answers that I see as viable. Only a spiritual change in the hearts of people will bring a better more connected and supportive world, and this is on the horizon if you’re the least bit honest and observant on what young people want.
When I was young I was taught that high moral character and value principles were the bedrock of our society and it was imbedded within the institutions of power. The dark souls of those those in power need an internal make-over, a true inner assessment on what type of world we want to live in. When this finally happens we will see real positive changes everywhere and for everyone.
(edit) This is likely tangential so apologies @excecutive. I’ll reread your very thoughtful response and get back on topic. But for now…
Brings up a question I was pondering in church this morning (getting that good ole Amber Mythical Literal fix that’s holdin’ be down, or propping me up, or whatever… ) .
You mentioned China… Do I have to be a pacifist in order to be a real Integralist? Is there a certain Integral level that I will be limited too until I become a pacifist? Or much like the enlightened elite Brahmins of India or Hollywood progressives, can I just outsource that “lower level” dirty work and maintain my higher Integral status? “I’m a pacifist, but my body guards with Uzi’s might not be so loving…”
I wonder if the concept that humanity marches in blissful lock-step making decisions easily and with nothing more than smiling head-nods is in actuality a “higher state of being”. Or is this a fantastical Noosphere concocted and promulgated by the intellectual elite who can so eloquently “identify” issues with the current system that need “fixing”, and voila’ the self identified intellectual elite just happen to have the answers - if only I were in charge… The more I wade through all of this, it seems like IT has perhaps become an academic theory that strategically fuels the most power hungry and corrupt of politicians and leaders.
I’m questioning Integral Theory’s quantum leap from a fairly rational anthropological assessment and model development (Ken used to clearly state that IT is a model of but not the real world) into the predictive space of what’s best for and what’s naturally higher order for humanity.
The question of: How can we pull off authoritarian collectivism this go around when it’s failed every single attempt throughout history? is still gnawing at my soul and intellect.
Perhaps it’s just my ego shadows fighting my up leveling the Integral ladder, right?
What you write @FermentedAgave I see it as happening in your spiritual space. This was you working internally with yourself. Your words above reveal your own internal conflict with this stuff (shadows)? Read Galatians chapter 5 for a scriptural definition on this duality. Here’s some spiritual questions to ask:
Was Jesus a weak pacifist or of a spiritually strong character?
Which of these character traits do we bring into our world of family and friends?
How did Jesus change the world?
Are Christians not instructed to be foot-step followers of Christ?
What was Jesus teaching? Not in some theological doctrinal argument among his millions of diverse followers; but in general was he pro love and connection? Was he known as being defensive, moody, crass and disrespectful in his manner … or was he kind compassionate and loving?
Which of these contrasting (flesh and spirit) ideals do we bring to our own home? Which do we want to see spreading throughout our community, town, state and country? How about throughout the whole world? Now I ask you which is stronger at keeping us together as an ideal society, Guns or Love?
This is a spiritual perspective and understanding. This is above and separate from our flesh and bones physical conflicts that are always happening on the ground in real time. They were happening in Jesus’ day too and they will continue long after we transition off this planet.
It’s bringing these spiritual qualities to the top of our integral perspectives that matter. When a movement is built on love we have the power to change the world. Imagine if after Trump was elected he lead from a moral platform of love and connection, rather than doubling-down on the fights, how quickly the world would have joined him and supported him in making positive changes for good?
Thanks for the very thoughtful response @excecutive . And yes I ALWAYS assume I have shadow work to do and perhaps am processing externally here .
While I do attend church, I was looking more for an Integral response rather than Biblical. I read Galatians 5, but am not quite following the bread crumbs if you will.
Still interested if at some point on the Integral journey we need to personally become pacifists? Can we outsource say our physical security to a group of “good” Ambers or Oranges (or whatever levels) that can follow directions? And does this pacifism extend beyond the physical realm to agreement on literally everything with everyone (the Green conundrum?)?
I think my spiritual journey around this is sorting out how we “implement integral in the world”, as opposed to “in theory an integral world would be…”. And I fully understand my question is likely a pretty flat Orange perspective? )
I say absolutely not! … That’s why we have the Constitutional RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. If you’re threatened you defend yourself. You don’t have to defend yourself from loving spiritually integrated people.
That is not my understanding nor my argument. I see all these levels and colors as part of the whole. They have been leveraged for good and evil … choose your interpretation on events throughout history. An integral spiritual view sees it all as one living system with multiple dimensions and parts that work holistically together. Keeping the whole of it progressing positively as one living organism.
The individual role you play within the dance of reality you choose for yourself. The spiritual approach is to optimize from your higher Integral self from an intention of love. Let’s all do that … like we do by the millions in America who bear fire-arms and live together in peace in an integral framework of cooperation.
BINGO!!! That’s it EXACTLY … I have shared my ideas on this as did Jesus and other spiritual people throughout history. Love thy Neighbor as thyself. How do we discover this spiritual space within ourselves as individuals? This is the spiritual quest … as we change ourselves from within we see this reflected back to us within the collective framework of colors and levels to form a complete integral picture.
It’s this higher spiritual ideal that needs to spread and be taught. Those who only bring intellectual analysis to theorize what an integral world would be … they have not made a full integral assimilation on Ken Wilber’s work. That’s only my opinion of course. Although many here may disagree with me I think his work is about spirituality. Not politics of socialism or communism as many of his followers may argue.
It is estimated that there are between 200 to 400 million firearms in the US.
Over a 15 year span, concealed carry permit holders committed roughly 0.7% of all gun homicides, or 801 killings. That’s 53 per year with 18M concealed carry permit holders in circulation.
AMEN … You’re preaching to the choir with me on this front. This may get lots of push back but from my limited perspective on the ground level so to speak I think that the USA is the most enlightened and integrated multi-culture civilization on the planet.
Biden’s rhetoric is little more than Democrat talking points that never advance the outcome of a safer society because the fundamental problem with the left’s assertion that more laws are the answer to the problem is that criminals don’t obey them in the first place. Not following laws, after all, is what makes them criminals and, in case that fundamental tenet of the argument was missed, it bears repeating. Rape, homicide, assault and the like are already illegal yet the left is convinced that the first 20,000 gun laws (literally) on the books at the local, state and federal level need to be augmented because just one more law (or a dozen) will make the difference.