Thank you very very much for clarifying this, Robb. It helps a lot.
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Thanks for your sacrifice @robb. Your effort is appreciated and say a big thanks to your Mrs for us. Blessings. #yes,and⌠#infinitelove
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Dear @frank I really find this thread interesting and also a little perplexing. It seems to me that this argument has been going since the Renaissance and the birth of modern science. Iâm very new to Kenâs work so I am responding based only on my limited understanding of IT . And I am an engineer with some little training in science. I do have a bias also as I am spiritual.
My interpretation of IT is that it doesnât claim to offer a complete detailed answer to all questions and I guess the Theory of Everything nickname could be misleading for some.
While I am spiritual Believe me I have many times doubted the existence of a God. I admire you coolheaded scientific rationalism very much and that of science which has brought is so many amazing benefits.
Ken Wilber seems to clearly articulate that he is no expert of everything and seems quite comfortable and confident that his logic is generally sound and he bases much of his deductions on the sound work of other researchers and scientists. Iâm OK with that.
Yes he does put a lot of emphasis on spirituality and I understand how annoying that could be for someone without a religious aptitude and who is steeped in the physical sciences.
However lets accept the maybe Wilburs lifestyle and background has given him this bias and perhaps he is somewhat blindsided by it. I think he is aiming to present a framework of understanding of our universe that allows a place for every bias, every reality now understood , theoretical , imagined or not even yet imagined @Kernotto .
I have a small chuckle inside when I see an advertisement for the latest laptop or mobile phone (while I write this on my phone) how this new device will revolutionise your life . This dumb thing with some buttons and a pretty screen. And weâd prefer to Facebook than go outside and look at the sky and ocean. I realise what we know about the universe is about how much my phone understands about my fingernail. Please donât take this as a criticism of scientists, who make amazing breakthroughs everyday, but it is an acknowlegement of the vastness of the universe and acknowledging how much we have yet to discover. Someone has already made this point, but I think it bears repeating.
I am trying to be compassionate as I discuss professional rivalry and competitiveness. It is pervasive in the business world and many walks of professional life. One has to be cautious when being critical of others work. I really like the #yes,and⌠philosophy which pays respect for things one can agree to and also the things one may disagree toâŚANDâŚ(as against BUT) here is what I can add to your work to expand on it or evolve it. There is so much in how things are expressed which gives it a positive flavour.
Am I making any sense here without being too direct?
I wish you all the best in your research and life endeavours. Blessings. #Yes,and⌠#infinitelove.
Peter.
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Back again already. Iâm just starting KWs Integral Meditation. Having said on another thread I canât meditate to save my soul, I wonder if IT can shed any light on how to improve my meditation.
To say I was flabbergasted by KW destroying Christianity in the introduction is an understatement. I can only surmise the perhaps K has had a negative experience on the past with Christianity.
He goes on to lament a future time when science could perhaps disprove a Buddhist view.
He is displaying a really strong bias here which I feel , even he would agree , does not belong in IT. He can be forgiven as , no one , certainly not me , is perfect and Iâm sure the reader can move on to see the big picture benefit of IT.
Blessings. #infinitelove. #yes, andâŚ
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hearteveryonePeter, hello! So honest/authentic of you to acknowledge being âflabbergastedâ by KWâs remarks on Christianity; I can imagine how it might feel to come across his remarks for the first time, particularly if one has a Christian background/orientation (which I donât know that you do). It can feel like a loss, be very hard, to have long-held beliefs often formed in childhood and still cherished, at least unconsciously, not just questioned but scathingly confronted, seemingly assaulted.
While Iâm not here to defend Wilber (and maybe I am, just a little), my own take, not from the Integral Meditation material with which I am not familiar, but from other sources (books and many of his talks throughout many years), is that he does not destroy Christianity, but rather confronts the amber-mythic perspective on Christianity, and in particular, fundamentalist Christian views. A myth by definition is a traditional story, emphasis on story, about a peopleâs history, oftentimes involving extraordinary or âsupernaturalâ events/beings. Colloquially, a myth is a false idea or belief that is commonly taken for truth.
Religious fundamentalism refers to beliefs in the absolute authority of a religious text or the teachings of a particular leader, prophet, or God. There is often a literal interpretation of said texts. Fundamentalists generally think their religion is the only ârightâ religion, and therefore usually want to convert others or force their religion upon others. Christianity and Islam are particularly noted for having fundamentalist sects within the larger religion, but probably all religions do; Wilber has written/spoken a lot about the fundamentalism in Buddhism as well.
Perhaps you already knew these things, but just wanted to make sure weâre on the same page here, terminology-wise. (I also donât know for sure that these elements are examples of what you see as his destroying Christianity, but amber-mythic religious views of Christianity are usually talked about in his books, so Iâm thinking this might be what youâre referring to. Correct me if Iâm wrong.)
I have read and heard Wilber speak of Christianity and of Christ-consciousness, and give examples of how Jesus would be experienced at each stage of development (magical, mythic, rational, pluralistic, integral). I see no attempt on his part to destroy Christianity, only attempts to help people at amber-mythic levels move up the âconveyor beltâ so as to embrace larger and more inclusive and more conscious perspectives.
Integral Life has also featured the teachings of (the late) Father Thomas Keating as well as Christian minister Paul Smith on the website, and Wilber has written glowingly of their (integral) Christianity, and was apparently very close with Father Keating.
Most recently, December 8, during The Ken Show, Wilber told of meeting with a group of Christian evangelicals who were interested in Integral perspectives. They themselves acknowledged being âsick of myths,â the myths of their religion. (He also acknowledged his surprise that they requested the meeting with him, remarking sort of jokingly on his âbiasâ in thinking they werenât âsmart enoughâ to be interested in Integral.)
I do not know Wilber personally, but from his writings and talks, and Iâve read and heard a lot over 20 years, I view him as a person of integrity. And also as a person who makes strategic decisions. I donât remember in which book I read it, but he spoke of his strategic decision to be strongly confrontive of the pluralist/green perspective rampant in academia with its performative contradictions and such, and the failure of greens to advance to second tier. I remember him saying âI tried to be nice but it didnât workâŚâ (paraphrased), Perhaps he has made a similar strategic decision in confronting the mythic beliefs in mainstream and fundamentalist Christianity.
When I first started reading Wilberâs books and listening to his audios, I kept an ongoing list for several years of what I called âIntegral Impressions.â Most of it was what I disagreed with or objected to, my negative critiques. I had forgotten about that file, but found it recently, and reading over it, I saw just how ignorant I was in certain areas in those early years, and how much bias and shadow I had around certain material.
So hearteveryonePeter, I offer this with the greatest regard for your good heart and intentions, and I hope you receive it that way. Youâre right, no one is perfect, and that includes Wilber, and I suspect if you keep reading and studying and, importantly, inquiring into yourself around subject matters which arouse strong responses/reactions in you, youâll come to see things in new ways, which is what growth and development are all about.
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Hey HeartEveryonePeter, I just wanted to echo LaWannaâs invitation to check out some of Kenâs other discussions about Christianity, as I think you will find that he actually holds a tremendous amount of respect for the esoteric tradition, even though he is often frustrated (to put it kindly) about its far-more-popular exoteric and mythic forms. I am actually editing a new discussion between Ken and Paul Smith where they apply the âThree Faces of Godâ frame to the Christian Trinity â so, the Father in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person, the Son in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person, and the Holy Spirit in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person. Very cool stuff, and will hopefully be published by the end of this week.
And here are some other discussions and presentations that you might enjoy:
https://integrallife.com/the-heart-of-christ-consciousness/
https://integrallife.com/awakening-christ-consciousness/
https://integrallife.com/esoteric-christianity-two-kinds-religion/
https://integrallife.com/integral-christianity-answering-call-evolve/
https://integrallife.com/gift-contemplation-new-evolutions-christian-practice/
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âToday, millions of people in America and Europe try to find contact with tradition and with teachers who can show them the way. But in large part the doctrines and teachers are either fraudulent, or vitiated by the spirit of public relations ballyhoo, or mixed up with the financial and prestige interests of the respective gurus. Some people may genuinely benefit from such methods in spite of the sham; others will apply them without any serious intention of inner change. But only a detailed quantitative and qualitative analysis of the new believers could show how many belong to each groupâ.
From Erich Frommâs book To Have Or To Be?
And so the question arises: where does Integral fall on this and to what degree? If someone says they are on second tier, how does one measure that? Or in my case, I consider myself a recovering Green yet I donât know how to move forward to second tier. Iâm still waiting for Susan Cook Greuterâs book and I hope she addresses this issue of spiritual gurus who claim to have higher levels of consciousness but donât. Itâs all too easy to be enamored with spiritual ideas and concepts and to such a degree that they literally delude us into thinking they are absolute truths. And what make this even more deceptive is that we are not AWARE of such deception- think Andrew Cohen, Teal Swann, and others who claim to know better. Maybe Iâm beside the truth but it would be a good idea to know where any given spiritual teacher is in his or her -waking up and growing up- development respectively. If martial artsiest have 5 or 6 belt levels why not Integral?
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Thank you @LaWanna for your comprehensive response and empathy. I understand and agree with everything you said. Even the greatest gurus allowed their human nature to guide their behaviour at times. Me too and it embarresses me every time.
Blessings. Happy safe holidays. #infinitelove
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Dear @corey-devos thanks for your response and those resources. Iâm grateful that you have read my feedback so perhaps it in a small way influences IT to be kinder to people from fundamental backgrounds. Lets face it a large part of the IT fraternity would be from one. We already struggle to relate back to our home faiths and that loss is real. Reading this was like being kicked while lying on the canvas. Iâm sure the hair on the back of Kens neck would stand up if someone ripped into Buddhism in that way.
Blessings. Happy safe holidays. #infinitelove
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The reference to the expectation that internet offerings and sites should be free is important. The implications of this expectation are discussed by Jaron Lanier in his provocative new book, Ten Arguments for Deleting your Social Media Accounts right Now". Essentially he asserts that the expectation of free use and content left companies such as FB with advertising as the only way to make sites income producing. The advertising in turn has led to our current mess by encouraging a culture of what amounts to behavioral control with highly individualized, often oblique, and often unsourced messages.
I have not been a participant on Integral Life long enough to judge the specific approaches and offerings but am happy so far with what is available for the initial membership fee and will probably explore other aspects later on.
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Hello everyone,
Iâm not sure if this is necessarily a criticism as much as an observation. Over the last handful of years Iâve noticed that few if any of the people that are expressing ideas and thoughts about Integral philosophy, personally and professionally and interpreting reality from a 2nd tier level are evolved in careers that are considered a âworking-classâ demographic. Also, it appears that many had relatively solid upbringings or even privileged formative years. This is not a judgement nor am I envious itâs just the view from where I stand on the Mountain of life. Iâm not saying that people coming from an Integral level havenât suffered but there is a âbubble of luxuryâ that many appear to live in.
Do you know what âfood insecurityâ feels like off & on over the years? Do you know what it feels like to have âzeroâ family alive to support you? How about the frustration of having absolutely âNOâ economic security and live paycheck to paycheck for decades? This is not the ranting of someone that sees themselves as a victim. As a matter of fact at 55 years of age I actually consider myself one of the luckiest people on the planet because my inner strength is abundant and Iâve enjoyed vibrant health beyond most people my age. I actually say to people that Iâve acquired a level of wealth that canât be bought nor earned with a college degree.
What had manifested in my existence is a love for all and an ability to handle situations that many would fear, run from, or collapse! The circle of people that have become my âuniversal familyâ are diverse and from all walks of life and demographics.
Thereâs no âone path to awakeningâ and mine has certainly been bizarre but I wouldnât trade it for anything. Ultimately, the point I wanted to make is this: if you see yourself as someone that is interpreting existence from a 2nd tier, Integral level, try putting that to test: reach out and interact with a spectrum of beings that will disagree and challenge you. Donât let yourself get into the âIntegral Echo Chamberâ in which everyone reinforces your perspectives and beliefs. Yes, its dam lonely out here sometimes and yes, it can be frustrating as hell, but what good is Integral if we tribalize it? No judgements here just sharing thoughts as they arise.
Peace and love,
Brian
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Iâm not sure how accurate that view is but I often share it at times Brian. Either an ivory-tower elitism or general sense that most have had at least the base survival/ safety needs met. And also a sort of a distancing from real problems in the world, a bias towards higher development regardless of how pathological a certain level may or may not be. Which to be fair is a problem generally in the world.
The fact that there have been a fair amount of at least reported abuses of power within the integral world though, or support of other organisations, Andrew Cohenâs Enlightennext comes to mind which Iâve never heard any of the official integral leaders comment on despite giving him a massive platform. Anybody know if that sort of stuff has been touched on in this forum? Cause personally I think those are signs worthy of serious disagreement.
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Bad day at work, grump on its way. I work in a deprived inner city in the UK which has a significant immigration population. I work as a family lawyer and have clients ranging from manifestly failing to cope with what life has thrown their way to those who are clearly thriving. Integral theory has provided me with significant insights into the structure and content of the disputes that I am involved in. It has changed the way I deal with work and my attitude towards my clients and equally towards my opponents. Iâve given up giving answers (thinly disguised as advice) and taken to asking questions to help people sort out an answer that is of use to them. Can be difficult. This morning was sorting out how much time children should spend with father. Father (immigrant with no English and no permanent right to remain in the country unskilled in anything that would be useful in a western culture, plenty of skills that are useful in his country of origin) was so used to those in authority either dumping on him or telling him what to do that had no idea what to answer when I asked him what he wanted. Before Integral Theory I would have told him what the courts usually order and suggested he ask for that. He had moved sideways in tribal: do what the elders in his extended family said to doing what the elders in the government agencies told him to do. My questions were to help him move a little into egoic and consider what he wanted to do as a father for his children. He has safe parenting skills and so his children seeing him take control of that side of his life would get a good message. Its taken over 2 years to get him to the point where he can believe his views count , but his children now have a father they can be proud of.
As to whether Integral Theory has been of much use to me personally, Iâm less sure. Disagreeing with Integral Theory is a bit like criticising a pair of binoculars because you donât like the view youâre looking at⌠Iâve done plenty of waking up, far less growing up and virtually no showing up. And I think thatâs because Iâm a condescending intellectual away from work who finds it easier to be disdainful about something rather than deal with it.
From my perspective I can see loads of progress up the spiral at work, though Fat Tony would be scornful of me describing it in that way. Those actually living the change would probably find that they are hindered if they took an integral perspective - it would give them an out from doing the hard miles in their own development. It certainly has given me an out when Iâve needed to do the hard miles in my own life.
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I loved your story, Andrew, about the client you helped move âdownwardsâ into the egoic, rather than âupwardsâ to the rationalâthatâs true integral work, I think, seeing what perspective-taking might truly serve the person in the current circumstance, and helping them view things in that way.
You also gave me my first laugh of the day, with your comment about âgrump on the way.â Not bad humor for a âcondescending intellectualââŚ
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I enjoyed reading your reply to frank
God yes listen to some music
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Hi Brian,
Thank you for your observations. I am new to the community but can attest to a very âbizarreâ journey as well. The paradox of being purged from a very comfortable and safe environment into conditions of instability (rock bottom) which you describe is that it hopefully forces change and growth that might not otherwise happen.
As someone who was immersed as a professional within the mythic belief structure of evangelical Christianity, I donât know that I would have experienced these transformations without the moments of lingering on the edge of the unknowns. Of course hitting the bottom came because I began to challenge the beliefs that I was supposed to espouse. Thus being purgedâthough a long and difficult journeyâresulted in waking up again.
I agree that it can be lonely out here. When I began to encounter a few integral thinkers, one of whom (Richard Rohr) referred to Ken Wilber, I felt a great sense of relief and excitement that this community exists although I am still exploring its place in my journey. Iâm looking forward to it. Thanks for your challenge. Kim
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Glad it gave you some joy, thanks. Speaking of music, with a user name ârubbersoul2,â sounds like you might be a Beatles fan? Some great songs on that album.
la wanna well spotted !
yes what valuable and ever rarer place that has become âjoyâ
From my local anyways. Iâm working on that .
Rubber soul itâs the LP that in âjohns words. they had gained experience in the studio , became contemporary , played more precisely on ,
Also took over the cover artwork.
it was paul who came up with rubber soul, meaning âyer Blues â,I suppose,
Meaning English soul.âRubber soulâ. Just a pun.
Paul said ; he read about an old blues player in the states talikng about Mick jagger,Man .Well you know there good- but itâs plastic soul,â
So plastic soul was the germ of the idea just a pun.
Wow Awesome Lp. Nice
Audiophile is another part of my soul.
Iâm not a Beatles only fan per sa , I like good music , for sure,!l as I have an idea you do .
Yes I have many multiple versions of all there early work .
Iâm a record collector ,a life long fascination I live in an apartment
properly 10,000Records .
I live with them , there kinda organic my Libary is alive , a lot can now go though .
Music , the culture of musicians , the artwork it all means so much to me,
From a very young age it was super important, think I recognised very early on this is a great tool for ,my survival here straight of the bat.
As Otis reading said âDo you like good musicâ .
Helps me communicate with suppressed difficult emotions , impotantly reminds me I have emotions , and itâs now time for them to be released regardless of how tough I think Iâve become through the day, week
For sure imparted wisdom from these master storey tellers are sacred spaces I will always create share & enjoy with others
Best I can .
Kind regards la wanna .
Hey, thanks rubbersoul2, for the lesson on the origins of the name of that album, which I listened to mid-morning today, which then made me have to listen to one of my Beatles favorites âAcross the Universe,â which then had me singing âJai Guru Deva, OmâŚNothingâs going to change my worldâŚâ for the next 3 hours. So itâs been a great day. Hope for you too!
Wow this is good news you had a music appreciation afternoon
âJai Guru Deva, Om, nothings going to change my mind ,written by john .
personally i resonate with Georgeâs works just inspiring love it.
I say hi as im fresh back on ILC ,perhaps you could point me out some discussion s kens talks or others loads to engage with .
I have joined full membership this week.
Truly kens philosophyâs have been life changing for us all thank you.
( be blessed,oh my God,who gives suffering
As the only divine remedy for our folly,
As the highest and purest essence preparing
The strong in spirit for ecstasies most holy.)
That was from Les Fleurs du mal Charles Baudelaire.
dipping in and out of kens works his collaborations teachings are for me some of the most interesting discussions on the planet .
over the last 30 years or more really wow time flys.
Discovering Then receiving paper publications âwhat is enlightenment magazine.
I have decided to really adopt ,engage ,and accommodate
Integeral theory,n practise , i still have my integral life practice 2008 book now in plane sight not tucked away also received the download
That comes with joining .
Lawanna i am reaching out as we have some
rep-ore .
Perhaps i have overstepped the âto much info,or wrong time place boundary .? you havent the time to read all the following please donât feel obliged
Or i am breaking community rules cross-topics i would apreciate sine-posting To appropriate topics
Somone with my age has interests alined with ilp from time, i have had and do have, personal struggles both recognised owned, and accepted, towards growth, and some ongoing and difficult life situations .
I have tried to go it alone to long under adverse conditions for years.
My friends return of liver disease after a liver transplant some years ago is now thrown us into the unknown , and into grief .
( my neglect of practise zazen, let this be a warning life shows up , it aint always great they way it decides to do this , i have practised mainly zazen zen for 10 years well untill i decided i dont have time. Crazy yes.
my unsuited work Which stops engagement with practise. Struggle.
ensuing, Depression Time away from employment.
I could do with an integral councillor ?something i promised i would do.
I have recently been diagnosed with adult ADD. ADHD and all its substrates fun things like rejection sensitive dysphoria .
Empaths ,i never could work out if i felt emotions in a say nuro typical way?
Now i understand the amplified emotion is the neurological wiring ADD/ADHD . Creating some jumping around states for sure.
For me personally this would explain so much and am interested what some of the integral professionals people who work in neurology or medicine or psychiatry,or just great advocates of integeral philosophy here have to say on this, in regards to ;
Actualising self , lines of development,and practise.
I have my own experiences of this but it would be great to find integeral
Pundits with whom i can engage n contribute with on ILP on this enquiry
ADD/ADHD has is a confusing, contradictory, inconsistent, and frustrating condition. Interfering with my deepest core interests lines of development ,over a lifetime leading to deflation substance misuse and all those dark places
Hey Iâm 12 years sober after 2 years in rehab so thats a start.
Kind regards .dan