Alternate Noosphere/Higher Level - Tangerine?

Which aspect of integral are you referring to? Ken Wilber’s framework itself, or applications of the framework in the world?

When it comes to the theory itself, Ken has made several critical updates to his theory over the years, all resulting from constructive feedback and criticism he received over the years. This is what brought his work from the “Wilber 1” phase all the way to today’s “Wilber 5” phase, each phase being more comprehensive than the last. So in this case, Ken himself is the final arbiter for his own theory, but the revisions themselves have come from a deepening of insight that have either come through his own thinking, or from his own intersubjective network of trusted peers.

And of course, this theory has been expanded and refined by other experts through projects like the Journal of Integral Theory and Practice. There are others in the space who have tried to branch the theory and make it their own, but by and large I have been underwhelmed by those efforts.

As for applications of the theory, I’d say that is more like poetry in motion. All of us are doing our best to enact the world through this framework, and then sharing our insights and observations within a community of the adequate. We then do our best to separate the adequate feedback from the inadequate (some are more qualified than others to criticize integral thought, which is true for every known field of human inquiry), and then re-integrate that feedback into our ongoing sense-making. Sometimes this causes us to strengthen our positions, other times it prompts us to rethink our positions.

The reason being, even if we agree 100% about the details of the framework itself, it remains true that two people with similar familiarity with the model, but coming from two different kosmic addresses, will still see somewhat different things when using the model to enact reality. That’s where good-faith enfoldment comes in, where both parties can find a way to fold their respective truth claims together and find a deeper, wider mutual understanding (and the shared reality this mutual understanding generates).

Technically, Orange is where the worst of the systemically racist social structures – slavery, for example – hits the rocks. There are Orange surface structures that continue to operate according to the inertias of history (such as “colonialism”, which is a particular expression of amber values [or perhaps “umber” values] within an emerging orange technoeconomic system), but the deep structures of Orange are themselves worldcentric. And again, it was the combination of newly-emerging Orange worldcentric values in the UL and LL, plus the newly-emerging technologies of the Industrial Age in the LR, that allowed us to finally abolish slavery in these modernizing nations for the first time in history.

Green then continues to deepen this worldcentric care, especially for historically marginalized groups, and brings with it a newfound appreciation of the various cultural constructs and language patterns that sustain racist thoughts, interpretations, behaviors, and outcomes. Which is why Orange attempts at multiculturalism are often handicapped by an assimilative “colorblind” mentality, which tries to ignore our differences for the sake of appreciating our sameness.

Green then criticizes these approaches, because they notice that a) the “colorblind” culture that people are being made to assimilate into is more often than not a monocultural expression of the majority culture that is still anchored by yesterday’s inertias, and b) a genuine multi-cultural approach requires, you know, multiple cultures and subcultures that can live in harmony together. And I think they are handicapped by the fact that many of these cultures and subcultures are themselves ethnocentric, and Green doesn’t know how to include ethnocentric cultures in the name of multiculturalism, without themselves slipping into ethnocentric thought. I think we can see this slide back to ethnocentrism-in-the-name-of-worldcentrism in Ibram X Kendi’s controversial and contradictory statement:

“Racial discrimination is not inherently racist.” “The defining question is whether the discrimination is creating equity or inequity. If discrimination is creating equity, then it’s anti-racist. If discrimination is creating inequity then it is racist. The only remedy to racist discrimination is anti-racist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.”

I think this statement (which I largely disagree with, with caveats) is itself the product of green thinking (a green perception of the social dynamics at play, largely in Zones 4 and 7) but interpreted through and enforced by amber values of ethnocentricity.

The reason I am spending so much time on this point, is because CRT — which, again, I think has some mature green insights that we should probably find a way to integrate — has what I perceive as an extremely dangerous idea sitting in its very center: that we need to reject the very products of Orange that get us out of racism and bigotry in the first place. They believe (incorrectly) that we need to reject ideas such as “neutrality” and “objectivity”, which are the deep structures of orange, because they (correctly) believe we need to find a way to eradicate the inertias of colonialism that are often associated with Orange (which, as I said above, are actually the surface structures of Orange as it presented itself historically, enmeshed with the prevailing Amber values of the time).

In other words, they are confusing the surface structures of Orange with the deep structures of Orange, and if they successfully deconstruct those deep structures as they want to, then a) they have completely annihilated the very conveyor belt that allowed them to grow into Green perspectives in the first place, b) they have dismantled the very deep structures that get us out of racism and bigotry, and c) they literally leave people nowhere else to go but Amber. It is a well-intentioned disaster, and can only end up creating more suffering in a misguided attempt to reduce suffering.

Thanks Corey for the very thoughtful response. I’m a bit short on time right now and will re-read again later this week. And it’s both theory and application/impact.

So how do we “clean up” this Green veneered Amber? From my viewpoint, I don’t think Amber masquerading as Green can lead to Teal until it’s cleaned up. Wouldn’t we better off supporting healthy Orange and Green, instead of unhealthy Green and/or Amber?

Short answer, we solve the problems of critical race theory by pushing for a genuine “integral critical theory” that can up-level the discourse with a more evolutionary frame, which is essentially what I’ve been trying to do with my whole “8 zones of racism” stuff, and which basically tries to make the case that we’ve already had the sort of social transformations that get us beyond ethnocentrism, but simply have to complete the upgrade by taking seriously the various kinds of resistance and inertia that we still see in each of these eight zones.

Ok. Makes sense in theory, but I don’t see how the Integralists plan to “implement”. Based on my assessment and experience CRT promoters are much more Win/Lose than the “color blind” proponents.

Looking at your Zone 2 definition “ethnocentric structures and shadows that generate racist views and values”. I find two primary definitions of “ethnocentrism”. First roughly equates “ethnocentrism” with “racism”. Second uses a broader definition of “racism or culture”, which can very easily be used to conflate “racism” and “culturalism”, and then possibly “culturalism” and “nationalism” making it quite easy for confusion.
How are you using ethnocentrism/ethnocentric, what percentage of the US population do you think operate out of your definition, and what indicators do you look for?
Likewise, what indicators would show transcending ethnocentrism (as you are using it) that would enable this up-leveling?
Are there other ways to get to Integral Critical Theory than through Critical Race Theory?
Perhaps a CRT “reset” then develop through a healthy arch?

P.S. Here is an interesting look at internal Disney “Integral Gender Theory” implementation by their DEI team contrasted to the Florida Bill to stop government employees from teach Integral Gender Theory to grade school children. Sorry it’s another Fox clip, but don’t see that NYT, CNN, WaPo, et all are practicing “investigative journalism” into this.

P.S. I’ve got more thoughts on Zones 3/4 and 7/8 than I have time to write so please bear with me.

Ethnocentrism refers to a stage of development (the Amber stage) that Ken estimates includes somewhere between 50-60% of the population, in terms of people’s center of gravity. It is a value set that creates in-groups and out-groups based on shared characteristics, and where one is identified exclusively with “us”, whether our family, our group, our ethnicity, our gender, our sexual orientation, our traditions, our nation, etc. It is a stage of development that, for the most part, can only see the positive associations of its own group, which it regards as intrinsically superior, and only the negative associations of whatever group they are regarding as “other”. It is the stage where racism, sexism, homophobia, and bigotry in general are the most prominent, because the lines we draw between “us” and “them” are the most opaque.

“I don’t see how the Integralists plan to “implement”.”

I mean, we’re not philosopher kings, all we can do is try to uplevel the discourse the best we can within our own sphere of influence and create a space for new ideas to emerge and find traction. It’s a very similar process as every other major social transformation in history, where the newly emerging stage remains a cognitive minority until a tipping point of influence is reached. As Ken often says, we estimate that around 10% of the population was moving into Orange when the Renaissance kicked off, and around the same percentage when the American founding documents were written. And around 10% of the population was moving into Green when the civil rights movements of the 1960s occurred. Ken often points to this “10% tipping point” when contemplating the future of integral. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if it required more than 10% these days, considering how fragmented our informational terrains have become (which, as I often repeat, is itself one of the central life conditions that are calling for integral solutions at this time in history).

Are there other ways to get to Integral Critical Theory than through Critical Race Theory?

I’m not sure what exactly this means. I think “let’s integrate the partial truths within CRT” is different than “going through CRT”. In other words, ICT may agree with some CRT thinkers around what sorts of challenges we continue to face, but would likely interpret those challenges somewhat differently and suggest a very different set of interventions, based on the fact that ICT is using a developmental frame that is completely lacking in CRT, as well as a highly granular AND holistic understanding of the multiple dimensions of human experience and activity (e.g. the 8 zones).

“Based on my assessment and experience CRT promoters are much more Win/Lose than the “color blind” proponents.”

Yes, that would be the amber underbelly I was pointing to. But also, I would invite you to contemplate whether you are receiving a “clean” view of CRT, or if your view is being mediated through a particular informational terrain with baked-in conclusions about the value of CRT, because I think there are some important insights for us to pay attention to as well.

Perhaps a CRT “reset” then develop through a healthy arch?

How exactly would this be accomplished, other than through censorship and attempted cancellation of a particular set of ideas? This only entrenches people further, as we have been seeing for the last several years. I am much more interested in creating a more robust framework that is capable of acknowledging and integrating multiple perspectives, by recognizing the partial truths that these various schools of thought are providing, alongside the limitations and blind spots within each of those schools. We need to up-level the conflict from win/lose debate to win/win/win discourse, and provide a frame that people with conflicting views can at least partially agree with, which is something I hope to accomplish with this particular set of ideas. That’s what I am feeling called to, anyway.

1 Like

This gives me a more optimistic appraisal of our global situation than I previously had. Moving 10% of the population into Teal is very doable in the next 20 years. No, I don’t think 10% already is Teal. My judgment is there is a lot of Green that think they are Teal because they have “woke up”, but they still have a lot of shadow and unwillingness to embrace Strong Power and Strong Speech when needed,
I’d like to present the challenge that part of Grow Up is to move from analysis to action and even confrontation when needed. Clean Up during this process involves making sure that Action and Confrontation is for the best benefit of all, and not oneself or one’s own group at the expense of others.

To this end, my action is working in the Green community to remind them that you are obligated to step into your Power and Voice to take Action and turn Theory into Practice and then to Reality.

My actions in the Non-Green spheres of the society around me tends to be more an opportunity for me to practice. For example, standing strong and firm in the face of physical violence, but not being angry at the perpetrator while doing so. To a lesser extent standing strong against harmful ideas while at the same time feeling compassion for the person trying to spread those ideas. Now that the whole Ukraine thing has upped the stakes - being willing to kill other humans if necessary and all else has failed while at the same time seeing them as human.

The next 20 years is going to require a lot from that Teal 10%.

Where my optimism comes from is that 10% is doable, and I can start working on those in my community, who I judge have “woken up”, and to a large part are “cleaning up” but may need to recognize the full extent “Growing up” and the necessity for them to be in their Fullness of Power and Voice. Or, at the other end of my Community, working on those who are to some degrees “Grown Up”, and introduce them to Waking up and Cleaning Up.

To address what @FermentedAgave has been asking every so often, and before Ukraine I didn’t want to answer - but now the genie is out of the bottle and impossible to ignore. Yes, Teal may very well have to kill some % of people who absolutely refuse to abandon Red methods as their primary means of getting what they want. Refusal to do so is Green in my judgement, and needs to be re-evaluated at Teal. We had to decide this in Ukraine in a period of hours, and we may very well have to decide this in the United States.

Thanks Corey. I think what I’m getting is the Integral Theory fully intends to maintain a “philosophical” approach without getting into implementation. Of course everyone will take their Integralism into their workplaces, schools, churches, families, communities, politics.

It’s tough when discussing nuanced and complex terrains when there are multiple definitions - common, common expanded, technical IT.

This is a pretty broad definition for Ethnocentric. Based on Ken’s definition it’s fairly pejorative.

Amber Altitude (Ethnocentric, Mythic)

The amber altitude began about 5,000 years ago, and indicates a worldview that is traditionalist and mythic in nature—and mythic worldviews are almost always held as absolute (this stage of development is often called absolutistic). Instead of “might makes right,” amber ethics are more oriented to the group, but one that extends only to “my” group. Grade school and high school kids usually exhibit amber motivations to “fit in.” Amber ethics help to control the impulsiveness and narcissism of red. Culturally, amber worldviews can be seen in fundamentalism (my God is right no matter what); extreme patriotism (my country is right no matter what); and ethnocentrism (my people are right no matter what).

I get what you mean about Critical Integral Theory being wholly distinct from Critical Race/Gender/Sex/xyz Theories and will expand to include Intersectionality.

I appreciate your time on this and know that it’s often laborious to hash out what we each mean. Thanks!

Just a couple of thoughts.
The world is complex. That’s why we expect our Administration (2M employees) to be assessing both past, current and future changes as well as determining our best course of actions, and when to invoke these actions in order to impact the geopolitical stage.
On Ukraine, to think we “had a matter of hours” isn’t accurate. In the public sphere we knew that russia was amassing an invasion army for months. Our Administration help multiple press conferences signaling that we would do little to defend, and hoped Russia would only take Donbass. The Administration assuredly had extensive knowledge of troop movements, machinations within Belarus, and knowledge of Russian forces moving into Belarus.
But yes, “ignoring” that a Red (how fitting :slight_smile:) force would take Red action, might best be met with response in a language (physical, military) that they would understand.

I don’t think anyone would every confuse “kill some % of people” with Transcendence.

Well that definition (which I think I may have actually written years ago? I can’t quite remember) is looking more at the amber stage as a whole, which includes more qualities than just “ethnocentrism”. But it does include all the adjacent “isms” that come with the Amber stage:

Culturally, amber worldviews can be seen in fundamentalism (my God is right no matter what); extreme patriotism (my country is right no matter what); and ethnocentrism (my people are right no matter what).

Now, when it comes to the Amber stage itself, I generally try to maintain a healthy appreciation for both its positive and negative qualities. Yes, unchecked Amber can quickly become pathological (as can all these stages), which is when we start seeing the worst extremes of fundamentalism, ethnocentrism, etc. And yes, the amber stage is also the very foundation of civilization itself, and the only stage that can properly put our Red impulses into check. Which means we want to help support the healthiest possible expressions of the amber stage, while also working to align our governing structures and social centers of gravity with more worldcentric stages.

I think many/most of history’s greatest tragedies grow in the gaps between mismatched interpretations, so yes, this is an important step I think.

I think that Integral Theory will, and in many ways already is, maturing toward what you call “implementation”. But no group is a monolith, so I can only speak to the question, “what is mine to do?” Or, in regard to Integral Life, “what is ours to do?”

So I am reluctant to speak to what integral theory in general “wants” to do, because that is largely left up to the gods of self-organizing social autopoiesis :wink:

As for me, considering that I personally do not exert a whole lot of political influence, nor does this community as a whole, I figure that the best way for me to continue serving this unfolding as I have for the last 20 years is to simply continue having conversations like these, and to help create structures where like-minded and like-hearted people can find each other, resonate with these beautiful emerging ideas, and then find a way to implement them in their own lives, relationships, and work in the world. It’s the only way I know how to help bring us closer to whatever “tipping point” may be on the horizon, and helps me bring just a little bit more meaning to my own life story :slight_smile:

What I mean when I said “We”, I was not referring to Government. You and I had a few hours to decide where we stood on the issue before we discussed it with another person. Most of the population was completely unaware of the Russia / Ukraine issue and were suprised and shocked by the invasion but decided within hours how they felt about it

1 Like

I always find those first few hours after a story drops to be fascinating, as people only have their own unmediated responses rather than the frames and talking points that are then handed down to them through the media. And unsurprisingly, this is when we tend to find the most overlap between those perspectives, because the machine has not yet had the opportunity to use the story as yet another political wedge. Then, within just a few days or so, it’s back to the usual finger pointing and tribal gamesmanship. I wish we could stretch those first few hours some more, before the brain-hacking begins in full force.

We saw the same just a couple days ago with the Smith/Rock story. I tend to find those initial raw reactions much more interesting, and MUCH more revealing, than the processed and pre-chewed takes that we then find ourselves surrounded by. It’s nexus-agency in action, and it’s always fascinating to watch.

1 Like

The Hoover Institute was covering the Russian moves quite extensively pre-invasion, as well as overall American foreign policy signalling impacts on various geopolitical scenarios. Very multi-systematic. High on the metamoderna MHC.

1 Like

I never did see the big deal about Will Smith[quote=“FermentedAgave, post:107, topic:21674, full:true”]
The Hoover Institute was covering the Russian moves quite extensively pre-invasion, as well as overall American foreign policy signalling impacts on various geopolitical scenarios. Very multi-systematic. High on the metamoderna MHC.
[/quote]

I wonder what % of the population follows the Hover Institute?
I’d say .001%?
In my opinion 99.99% of the population had no idea what was going on in Ukraine since 1989 until Russia launched the invasion.

Down to the specific day of the Invasion, it was unclear. The “Right Wing” media was covering in detail the troop build-up, Belarus movements, geopolitical implications, and White House signaling. It was “no surprise”.
Same on the Mexican border with the ending of Title 42. We’ve already had 1 MILLION illegal crossing this year and it’s early April. It’s intentional policy from the White House, in violation of US Law.

Yikes. I guess that makes Tucker Carlson’s whole “I support Russia” thing just a few days before the invasion that much more deplorable.

Youre so cute when you parrot escalatory bullshit. Lol

There is a fair amount of good multi-systemic multi-domain coverage once you pop out of the Social victimhood bubble.

1 Like

Just saying, the stated excuse given for the later walkback was “we had no way of knowing Putin would actually do something like this”.

Youre so cute when you parrot escalatory bullshit.

LOL. Was this you?

As we are seeing unfold with the Biden Family, Democratic party, and mainstream media we could very well be seeing the worst corruption and intentional Mass Disinformation campaign in the history of humanity.

This was well covered in the Right Wing media prior to Putin invading. I do agree that the Democrats always lead with a “derp, who’d a thought that might happen”.

Interesting turn by the Republicans. They are starting to associate Obama with the Biden corruption, likely to weaken a 2024 candidacy for Michelle Obama.

1 Like

On the Right, response has been immediate and seemingly sustained. I would characterize as;

  • It’s standard bizarre fare in Hollywood
  • Black Privilege
  • Hollywood Star Privilege
  • And of course his emotional foundation is contorted since he’s been publicly cuckolded by his wife.

Personally I feel sorry for Smith having gotten himself into a relationship with someone that has fundamentally different values than he appears to have.

Management of Far Left Hollywood Relativism very simple…

  • Announce that they are getting divorced amicably with a focus on the children
  • Love each other, and will support their children together
  • Apologize again and take a sabbatical to mentally ground himself.
    Smith will be back bigger and better.
    Not quite sure what Jada does to land on both feet.