Indigo Issues. Third-tier dysfunctions

Hi All,

I have quite a bit of drama going on in my otherwise totally carefree life. And it’s all caused by meditation. (I only meditate a couple of minutes per day now, as the aftereffects are too intense.)

As far as I can tell, I now have three forms of suffering. In order of rank, from most to least, they are as follows:

1. Fear of loss of control / confusion (big issue).

  1. Fear of death (minor issue that seems to have cropped up).

  2. Fear of not finding a soulmate (very minor issue–shadow material being sorted).

NB. Third eye is open, but possibly migrating north.

I’m not so much interested in discussing Points 2 and 3. I am just supplying those fears so that others may judge me and get some context as to what state / structure I’m at, and whether those dysfunctions might be co-contributing to Point 1.

So, my big issue is loss of control, which comes in two parts:

Part A: My identity is totally confused right now, and I feel like I’m not in control of it. Am I the expansive infinite awareness, which seems to be growing more and more potent every time I meditate; or am I literally the outside world? My identity seems to be torn between the two on a near-permanent basis, and it’s a source of frequent suffering.

Part B: Following from Part A, I have this growing feeling that I am the literal cause of my entire experience. For instance, when I sit in infinite awareness, a type of nonduality occurs whereby I am 100% sure that the total sum of my experience is me. I am the originator of everything that I see, feel, touch, taste, hear, think, etc. The origin is not the outside world, it’s me (whatever I am–refer to my confusion at Part A). And this causes further confusion in me, because it seems that I can, in theory, induce any emotion I want, right? I can see whatever I want to see. But then this doesn’t seem right. Surely there is an independent outside world that contributes, at least in part, to my lived experience, right?

I would be most appreciative of any help I can receive. Or perhaps there are some other online forums that handle these types of Tier 3 dysfunctions, or real-world organisations? I live in Australia but I am happy to travel internationally if it would benefit my situation.

Of course, if I asked these types of questions to a mainstream mental health worker I would likely find myself on antipsychotic medication and possibly in a mental institution. I simply cannot talk about these types of issues with anyone in my life.

Kind regards,
Michael.

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Hi Sidra,

Thanks for your reply.

Blockquote Who was in control when you composed your post? > Blockquote

I’m not really sure. It’s a real rollercoaster ride of vantage points at the moment.

Yes, I confess that I am one of those peacetime neurotics. “Leisurely self-obsession” has been the hallmark of my life. And it was all going smoothly until I hit a particular height of consciousness and seemingly broke my reality in half.

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Hey Michael,

I feel like I can relate with some things in this direction, even if not exactly the same. And I really understand the potential stress and daunting-ness of not being able to discuss this stuff with mental health professionals or other people in general.

I’d be happy to try to chat and see if it’s beneficial at all, though I’m more comfortable talking one on one. So feel free to send me a private message here if you like.

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Hi Edward,

I will definitely accept your kind offer and send you a private message. I’m looking forward to chatting to you as this is mostly a lonesome experience.

Just for the public record, and for anyone else reading this, and having similar dysfunctions, I wanted to add something else to my original post, which I forgot to mention because I wrote the original post in haste.

The nondual-type vantage that occurs in meditation (when I sit in infinite awareness) is starting to crop up in everyday life. Mostly it’s a blissful experience, but it is interwoven with periods of terror.

[Background: I had to present to the emergency department of my local hospital about 10 days ago. I was experiencing extreme terror / anxiety / acute depression for the first time in my life. In retrospect, I think it was an excellent learning experience in terms of being able to understand those particular forms of suffering, which many experience on a more chronic basis unfortunately. My blood pressure was elevated, I was shaking, my fight or flight response was engaged (for about 3 hours!), my mind invoked depersonalisation as a type of protection mechanism; and I informed my Dr that I would rather be dead than go on like this. The Dr was an empathetic man and was determined to get to the bottom of the situation. This resulted in a host of blood tests and 3D brain imaging. The medical intervention failed to detect the cause of the issues (I don’t have a brain tumour), and this is why in my first post I mentioned that all my problems appear to be self-caused through meditation in what has otherwise been a relatively carefree life. Thankfully the symptoms, on the more extreme end of the spectrum, appear to have resolved (for now), through personal shadow work, but I can see that they’re not far away. They’re a constant threat if I am not vigilant.]

I assume this is my ego reacting to the situation (dark night of the self?).

This nondual-type vantage I mentioned at the beginning of the message is highly transpersonal, in the sense that it is a genuine realisation (merging) that the infinite awareness in me is not separate from the infinite awareness in other people / animals / etc. The separation is an illusion only. This realisation often coincides with an intensely rich experience of life. My perspective broadens and merges into the perspective of others. I really l love it and wish everyone could experience it. My confidence elevates in a non-egoic way and I can navigate social dynamics with near-clairvoyant ease. I believe I am beginning to get a mild taste of what life feels like at the higher levels of Tier 3, but I am very much at the lower levels right now and very much floundering.

Anyway, maybe this extra information can be of benefit to someone, somewhere around the world, who is experiencing some form of Indigo dysfunction. You are not alone and if you want to message me I would love to chat, both for my own benefit and potentially yours.

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Edward, I can’t seem to find a way to private message you here. I’m a new user and perhaps my functionality is limited? Regards, Michael.

i just tried sending you a message from my end. if you don’t receive it or see it, feel free to post here again so we can figure it out.

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To anybody following this thread, I just wanted to say that I wasn’t quite as familiar as I should have been with Ken Wilber’s work in the previous weeks. I now see that I was having one almighty Dark Night of the Self (worst experience of my life), which marked the State transition from Causal to Empty Witness (Turiya). I simply didn’t know this was going to happen in advance and so I wasn’t able to make sense of what was happening to me while it was happening, and of course the mainstream medical community had no idea either.

In my previous post my frame of reference was wrong. This was not, for the most part, an Indigo Structure issue, but a State transition issue that occurred at the Indigo Stage. I am still at Indigo but my State has changed to Empty Witness. It’s an unmistakable shift in the nature of consciousness. You can’t fail to notice it. It’s as if a giant gaping hole of infinity has opened up in the location where some sort of causal egoic component of consciousness used to reside. Or perhaps a better analogy is to say that the infinite awareness component was always there, but the causal egoic component was obscuring the infinite component and had to ‘die’ and fall away in order to reveal what was underneath. The dying process is what Ken refers to as the Dark Night of the Self, and Ken does make mention of the fact that this is a profound type of death. The following quote is taken his The Religion of Tomorrow (which is the most relatable book I have ever read in my life, and that’s on the back of studying Western analytic philosophy for 20 years):

“That first phase, or causal-to-Witness phase, of the dark night of the Self is a profound death in many ways, a complete dis-identification with all finite qualities, traits, tendencies, and characteristics of a self-sense. (The turiya Empty Witness is indeed
“empty” of all contents, objects, and phenomena…”

“Profound” is an understatement Ken! It should come with a massive warning label.

The outcome of all of this is quite incredible. Initially my causal egoic self represented the appearance of this infinite awareness (Empty Witness) as something foreign, scary and void of content. But this seems to have been some sort of egoic self-delusion and infinite awareness is, in fact, totally devoid of content but does have a subtle warmth and peacefulness to it. This seems to interact with the content of the ‘outside’ world in the most brilliant way. Everything that I previously enjoyed about reality has gained a new depth of enjoyment, and even the things I didn’t enjoy have a newfound beauty. A stunning rawness of feeling that I have never felt before. And the default baseline experience is a simple, present peacefulness. Increasingly, I can switch into infinite awareness at leisure without the need to meditate.

I can’t give enough credit to Ken Wilber. The man is a genius. To me, he must be some type of ‘consciousness savant’. The beauty of our situation, by being alive in a Post-Ken-Wilber Era, is that Ken has laid down the paths for us. The mist has cleared and I can see the way forward from Empty Witness to Nondual, and the Structural path from Indigo to Violet to Ultraviolet to White. I had always felt a deep sense of imposter syndrome throughout my life, as though I were playing the game of being human. That imposter syndrome has lifted, and I have gained a path forward in life. I can see, for instance, that another ego death will likely occur at my State transition from Empty Witness to Nonduality (Ken calls this a Dark Night of the Higher Self), but he seems to suggest that this type of ego/identity death will be less profound than the previous one, which is good news as I don’t want to end up in the hospital emergency department again! I can also see that I have many Structures ahead to transcend and include.

I understand that the path may take years, but I am young (40 years old), and there is no purely logical reason why I can’t proceed to a permanent State of nonduality and White Supermind. And there is nothing at all special about me. That’s the important thing to realise if you’re reading this post. If you met me, you would regard me as a simple, regular person. There is nothing about my identity or situation that makes me noteworthy, which means that there is nothing stopping you (whomever you might be) from taking the same path as me. If you can make it to Third Tier, then you’ll understand that there is no vocation more important than Waking Up and Growing Up.

Please understand that Ken has mapped the Waking Up path in such a simple-to-understand way that would otherwise have been impossible for us to navigate without deferring to some type of Ancient Tradition, which would have taken half a lifetime to properly comprehend. My journey to date has taken six months. Those six months have been highly confusing but now that I am familiar with Ken’s work, I can see that he has basically distilled the contents of the Dharmic traditions and Western mystical traditions into a single thesis, and combined those great Waking Up traditions with Growing Up in such a way that the Buddha himself would be surprised. The Buddha never had access to the Growing Up component of consciousness that Ken has merged with Waking Up.

Ken contextualises his place in history as a ‘Fourth Turning of the Dharma’. This may sound grandiose at first glance, but I am convinced that Ken Wilber is a modern-day Buddha. He is going to be hugely important historical figure to posterity. Sometimes we just can’t see the importance of someone like Ken Wilber due to the fact that he is miles ahead of us.

I can see that I am starting to manifest the type of dysfunctions that crop up at Violet (thanks for warning me Ken!), so I will finish here. If anyone ever wants some individualised assistance with mid-level Waking Up and Growing UP, then please feel free to message me. It’s a service I will offer entirely for free and I will never see any form of recompense (various synchronicities have recently resulted in my being financially free).

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The problem is trying to make sense of the nonrational into rational thoughs and concepts. The nonrational is “Experience / Sensing” the rational is the story we make up about our experiences and senses. Our bodies experience some flows of chemicals in our bloodstream and we make up a story whether it is fear, ecstacy or sadness. “Oh. my cheeks are wet and I have a knot in my stomach. I must be sad” Until you have experiences where these same stimuli are ecstacy and love.

If you accept that there are things that your brain will never grasp, thats the first step. Those who think they have an understanding of the Cosmos only think so because they are blind to the majority of it that is non rational. All this “Integral Theory” … well, first it’s all theory and second only 1/4 of the equation is generally discussed. Ad nauseum imo.
The next thing is to decide if you even want to take a step into living with the nonrational. I’ve taken brief steps in and decided there were things I want to accomplish and going further would impede those tasks. If you do decide to take a few steps in, understand that there is no controlling it. The nonrational is the polar oposite of control. Though I suspect there are differences between male and female nonrational experiences, I don’t think either will ever be able to “make sense” - categorically.

Speaking of Mental hospitals, perhaps I can give a description of a time the nonrational washed over me one night I was driving home from a shift at the State Mental Hospital. I was a full moon and the inmates had been drinking up that full moon juice. Some of them dancing, but pretty much just a decidedly strange vibe. These were long and boring shifts and I spent the night staring into the eyes of a catatonic in a wheelchair while another catatonic danced nearby. For the last four I hours mostly just sit there, motionless, keeping eye contact and doing internal “meditation”.
As I drove home I brought all … that … along with me. I didnt clear it out and stayed in that space.
As I drove up to the tunnel I had to pass through, a brand new pickup sped past me, lost control, spun 270 degrees and crashed into the side of the tunnel, blocking it. The man got out, agressively moved towards me, then stopped. I was just sitting there staring at him. He rushed back into his truck and reversed - crash into the side of the tunnel, went forward, crashed again, reversed and crashed again then finally sped off with tires squealing.
The only emotion I had throughout was curiosity, patiently watching this man go through some kind of life crisis in front of me.
Weird stuff like that tends to happen around me when I stay in the nonrational and walk in regular society. At some level there is something going on, but it’s not possible to explain in a way that would pass the logic test. As a result, I tend to avoid stepping into the nonrational if I am in urban environements or places where I might encounter “weirdos”. That word is an example of the rational world’s judgements about people who do not live in the rational and we dont even have an alternative lexicon to discuss it.

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I’m not always the most inclined to post publicly, but, perhaps inspired a bit by Michael, I wanted to express support and appreciation for his support and appreciation of Ken. (And, I suppose, support and appreciation directly from myself to Ken, lol.) In particular, “The Religion of Tomorrow” has been such a great and supportive resource to me, and I often just feel like Ken is mis- and not understood. I swear, I am not a Ken fangirl and I’m not saying he’s perfect or infallible or ever could be. I’m just trying to be reasonable. I am happy to feel disagreement with him if and when that is what occurs. Anyways, I hope everyone is having a wonderful day and culturally-biased “holiday season”, if that is present.

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1.) Fear 2.) Fear and 3.) Fear
**Fear: anticipation of danger, pain, evil or in your case LOSS of CONTROL
ANALYSIS:
MD: Cocktail of chemicals resulting in a cascade of treatable symptoms: HEAVY DUTY DRUGS to treat Anxiety Disorder
Ya-Ya Sisterhood: Ego, States, Stages, Shadow resulting in your TOTAL CONFUSION
K.I.S.S. However carefree your life appears to be the FACT is you have never been in CONTROL * Welcome Human
FEAR IS THE MIND KILLER * Pass through Fear and only I AM remains
One of the two the unobtainable states.
Love to chat about this
theTotalPane dot ca

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Hi John,

You have a most curious website.

I feel morally compelled to respond to your comment in a public forum. Maybe someone else will benefit from my struggles.

I have come to a surprising conclusion, and one which you seem to have pre-empted. Self-enquiry meditation has revealed that I do not exist in the orthodox sense. There is the little self (comparable to a delusion) and then there is the true Self (comparable to infinite awareness / pure subjective experience / the principal focus of the Eastern traditions / call it what you will). This resulted in a mini identity crisis (which lasted for about 5 minutes while having a shower last night) and then nearly automatically (as if by default), my identity re-aligned with the full contents of my delusion and nonduality came down on me. “Form is not separate from Emptiness” <----I now fully understand what that means.

Within the context of Ken Wilber’s work, I feel that my Structure (aka Stage) is somewhere in the vicinity of Indigo / Violet and so I still have more conceptual work to do, as my version of nonduality is quite infantile. Also, nonduality is not properly stable, which means I likely have more meditation work. Ken Wilber, in my view, is incorrect to say that States are free and Structures are earned, as I am fairly convinced that States are earned through self-enquiry meditation, but Ken is right to the extent that States always appear to be ‘gifted’. There is a peculiar sense in which States seems to be endowed by some mechanism that exists beyond human ‘choicefulness’. This is quite a curiosity but is well beyond my current understanding.

This Emptiness, which is my ultimate identity, is quite a strange mode of existence. Through meditation, I can identify with the Emptiness, and place any ‘problem’ I have, or any aspect of life, in front of Emptiness, and I will see the problem through the objective lens of Emptiness (ie. pure awareness). This is a stunning clarity to have. Nearly every problem in my life has been revealed as devoid of content. Contentment in the present moment appears to be the only substantive experience. Similarly, the delusions worth keeping are those that bring happiness. A type of self-delusion is required so that I keep those as experiential components, while readily rejecting and extinguishing those components that cause suffering. I can now see how monks are able to sit in lotus position and set themselves on fire without even flinching. The project ahead of me is simply to identity (Second Noble Truth) and then dissolve every single source of suffering. The default will be bliss.

Does any of this make sense within your own experience?

The Void Bar
Witness, (I) & (i) and Ego go into the Void Bar
Witness orders a herbal tea
(I) & (i) orders a double single malt
Ego orders a flight of fancy beers
These friends have been connected at the hip since the big bang three legged race against time. They are inseparable, each providing unique abilities required to enter the void. The witness is a lion, fearing nothing. (I) & (i) are like Dharma and Greg and Ego the weathervane, pointing out which direction the wind is blowing.
Ego gets drunk and tells a joke, Witness doesn’t think it’s funny, Dharma begins speaking in tongues and Greg doesn’t get the joke.
Over time, these close friends have learned to leave their expectations and intentions at the door when they enter the void bar. Sometimes they just sit and listen to silence in appreciation, gratitude and comradery and come out much richer than when they went in.
—--------
surprising conclusion : your little (i) is not a delusion - every cell in your subtle. physical and causal bodies are essential to what (i) AM, every pixel of color, light and darkness is required to ‘get’ the picture that (i) AM is a single molecule in a (I) AM geyser shooting out of the bindi point of the void.

“I and i” is a Rastafari phrase that refers to the oneness of God and all people

non-duality is not properly stable: the map is not the territory - everything is in motion - John Vervaeke talks about an ecology of practices - none of us ‘got here’ for free, however whatever you call the state (i) AM in, it was gifted in-so-far as (i) did not plan to get here, it just happened along the way: pun intended

So yes, I am a curious fellow

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“none of us ‘got here’ for free, however whatever you call the state (i) AM in, it was gifted in-so-far as (i) did not plan to get here, it just happened along the way”

Gotcha. This makes a lot more sense when it’s framed this way. I now see what Ken Wilber is trying to say. Thanks for clearing that up.

“your little (i) is not a delusion - every cell in your subtle. physical and causal bodies are essential to what (i) AM, every pixel of color, light and darkness is required to ‘get’ the picture that (i) AM is a single molecule in a (I) AM geyser shooting out of the bindi point of the void.”

Wow, that really cut through. I was in the depths of meditation and what you said suddenly appeared and it occurred to me: “why am I so convinced that the world of Form is an illusion? Why do I feel so innately that it’s a dream?” I separated this lens of Form from infinite awareness and realised that the whole thing was just an idea. That is to say, I had invented an ideological lens through which I was viewing Form (what Ken would call a dysfunction, in the form of an allergy directed to Form). An immediate release coincided with this realisation. A huge amount of tension unwound and was set free. Thank you for assisting me on that point (in your unique metaphorical way of doing things).

I do have another question that immediately follows though:

When viewing Form through the abovementioned lens (frame of reference as a dream), I was able to switch off my sense of hearing, my sense of tactility, etc. This led me to an incredibly peaceful state. No sense of bodily self. No sense input coming in. Like an ocean with no waves (totally ineffable–impossible to explain with words). I am sure, however, that this was not the Right View, and that’s because after meditation I would be left with a creeping, insidious nihilism. A sense in which sensory input was rendered vacuous. Clearly this is not the right path. But my question is: How do I switch off my senses in a way that is consistent with the Right View and does not invoke nihilism? I seemed to be able to do it only by viewing Form (the outside world) as a type of dream. Is there some other method? Surely there must be.

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PS. I just noticed that Ken pre-empts allergy to Form in Religion of Tomorrow as a common Indigo pathology:

“. Identifying with the Subject, with the Awareness of awareness, when extreme, amounts to a dissociation with the manifest realm itself, and certainly with its community of all being. Both the horizontal autonomy drive and vertical Eros drive go pathological, and the individual ends up as an isolated, unfeeling, unmoving Subject of awareness (however experienced—as an immovable I AMness, a rigid but open clearing or empty field, or a “no-self” awareness); in any event it is fairly depersonalized rather than transpersonalized.”

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a creeping, insidious nihilism. A sense in which sensory input was rendered vacuous.
Disclaimer: IMHO: Not a Scholar, Not a Expert - an ecology of practices since 1973
1.) nihilism - The Yoga of Renunciation
2.) The Witness State - an Unobtainable State
The Witness State is NOT a state you obtain, it is a steady state that you come REALIZE is already a part of your cognitive machinery
the Witness is without intension, judgment, bias or feeling - that’s a problem for a human
the Witness is outside your frame of reference - the Axis Mundi
the Witness is the Akashic Record Scribe

observer, object, process
the Witness is like a wheat combine (observer) that cuts down ALL the wheat (objects) by moving up and down the field (process of observation) - notice I mentioned the field
The Yoga of Action MUST follow Cleaning, Tempering, Grinding, Separating and Blending to create Flour for baking Bread otherwise you can not sustain yourself.
Intermission → Wheat Kings - The Tragically Hip
3.) Breath / Silence vs Ego / Monkey Mind

goto IcarusFlyby.ca and click on the 3D Breath Meditation Link

when you get to the three deep breaths screen sit your ego down and thank it for all the work it is doing on your behalf then tell your ego that you are going to do a download and that it should shrink down into the corner of your screen

go full screen and monitor your breath for a while

after a while follow the rest of the instructions

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Ah John, something happened to me yesterday. I was working in the forest on my property here in Australia, and I realised something was different. Something felt VERY different about reality. I stopped working and sat down on a log. I tried to meditate for a few seconds. But there was nothing there. There was nothing to do, so to speak. So I just sat on the log with an intense peacefulness.

Last night (Australian time), I discovered that I have full control over my States. I was the cause of my States all along. I caused my own existence. If I want to have my ego, and engage with Form on that level, then I can do that. If I want to sit in the bliss of Turiya (aka Infinite Awareness / Emptiness), then I can do that too. I finally see what I was doing to myself, for the past 40 years.

“ecology of practices since 1973”

You have done some excellent pointing, and I really do thank you for assisting me.

“The Witness State is NOT a state you obtain, it is a steady state that you come REALIZE is already a part of your cognitive machinery”

I think I now fully appreciate what you mean.

" Intermission → [Wheat Kings - The Tragically Hip]"

Made me laugh :rofl:

I will follow your instructions and go to IcarusFlyby.ca once I am feeling a bit more confident. I feel like I’m in a delicate situation at the moment. I need to protect what I have discovered. I hope that makes sense.

Thank you for your assistance. I am naturally curious about you. Is there anything you feel comfortable sharing about your past or present experience? Do you have any particular spiritual ‘goal’ or are you perfectly at ease with your present situation in life?

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PS John. At the very beginning of this thread I said I had “Fear of death (minor issue that seems to have cropped up)”.

I would love to hear some comments from you on this topic, if you don’t mind. Because it did occur to me last night that I am never going to die. Fear of death becomes a nonsensical and wholly impossible position to maintain.

I have just finished eating some black cherry double-cream yoghurt. The smell of it delighted my sense of smell. Now, how long did it take for that phenomenon to come about. Billions of years? The planet was just rock 3.8 billion years ago, and now yoghurt and cherries exist, and some of those rocks are being delighted about it.

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Every time the wind blows. Do you see it John? It’s been blowing continuously for billions of years. Every breath of wind sits of the helm of billions of years.

What is this?

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I have five granddaughters. You reminded me of a picture of my favourite eldest granddaughter Elizabeth as a toddler eating a huge sun kissed strawberry freshly picked in the field with juices running down her face wearing an enormous smile of pure delight!
Thanks

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You handed me the strawberry

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