Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

I suppose I myself also have Hitler and Mussolini derangement syndrome.

Tell me - what defines it as a syndrome vs just not wanting a bad person in a position of power?

The Crux of the problem is seeing this as right vs left. There are plenty of reasons for “true” 1990’s conservatives to dislike Trump as well and not want him in charge. What Trump Conservatives want is exactly what you are accusing of Liberals - one set of laws for one and another set of laws for another. That is why it is so hilarious that Trump made a big deal about a making a law specifically against Hillary Clinton and keeping her out of office and now he himself is trying to get out from under it.

Trump has, in fact broken many laws. Grabbing a woman by the pussy is, in fact illegal. That was even before day 1 of his presidency. All the way to even today, his defense against FBI investigation is based on him violating Campaign Finance Laws. He says he is not running for president - so he can avoid campaign finance laws, but his defense that the FBI should not investigate him is partially that he is the front runner for 2022’s Republican nomination.
I could go on for pages.

Here is the crux of the problem: Some people don’t like Liberals. They have signed up as volunteer culture warriors on the Anti-left.
So we have culture warriors on the right and culture warriors on the left and both these groups are unwilling to see basic truths and facts.

Where Trumps movement will fail in 2022 and again in 2024 is what I pointed out to @FermentedAgave. Independents and people who still have the capacity to think are just tired of Trump. People who might have voted for him once or twice but don’t like him are getting more and more reasons to dislike him ever day. Even from FOX News - who is also tired of him. The Red Wave may very well stall and be completely 100% due to Trump’s numerous character flaws and failed leadership ability - just as the massive failure of the Republican party in 2020 was 100% due to Trump’s poor leadership.

The second one is more significant than it would first appear. Educated white suburbs are the demographic dumping Trump the fastest. They carried him in 2016 and he lost in 2020 when he lost a portion of them. Since Jan 6, 2021 support for Trump has been in a steady decline in this demographic.

Here is a story about the well-known Leftist, Mitch McConnel and his Trump Derangement Syndrome:

In 2015 I was walking to the cafe for a cup of coffee with two co-workers, one of which was one of my closest co-workers. The other asked, “So Agave, are you voting for Hillary?”. I answered, “No”. She then replied with a big grin, “So you’re a misogynist then.”
I was shocked at the offensive statement so asked, “What did you say?”
She repeated “So you are a misogynist then.”
To which I replied, “I don’t agree with Hillary’s politics.”

This was my first personal experience with the “New Leftists” and their “win at all costs” mentality. What’s ironic is I didn’t vote for Trump either.

Is what we have now in society bringing us closer to Teal/Integral, or regressive compared to the days of civil political discourse?

Yeah, and when you talk to Trump supporters they accuse you of all kins of silly words. I dealt with similar people on the right since the 1990’s. Just substitute “mysoginyst” for the preferred right wing hate name of the day.

I don’t think political discourse was ever civil. That’s why when I was a child you never discussed religion or politics.

Then baby boomers started breaking that rule. In the 1990’s it was generally people who listened to conservative talk radio who were most outspoken.

Before that society was even more segregated. Lutherans didn’t even socialize with Catholics and the racial divide was even greater.

So where does that leave us? Going back in time is obviously not a solution because it was even worse then.

Depends on how you define “bad person”. To the Harris-left, these days, anyone who doesn’t agree with them is a bad person, and that’s what turns their obsession into a syndrome. That’s what all their virtue-signaling is about, it’s about showing that they have the moral high-ground. As per @FermentedAgave’s example, it’s the identity politics. While most any political leaning, these days, plays into identity politics, it’s the hypocrisy of the Harris-left that takes it to the level of a syndrome. You know, “Diversity of opinions are fine, so long as they agree with ours.”

I vaguely recall something along these lines in the heat of his political campaign. Was he serious? Or was it just empty rhetoric in the heat of political campaigning? Context required. If he were serious, then it’s nonsense because the separation of powers blocks him from realizing it, anyway. It’s just not possible. So either he was ignorant of the separation of powers principle, or he was just playing with her, trying to get a rise out of her. He’s a bit of a troll, you do realize?

Sometimes women, if they like some exciting charismatic guy who has impressed them, would love to be grabbed by the pussy. And maybe that was the point that Trump was making in his secretly recorded banter with someone else. Is it illegal? Technically, if actualized, yes. But is banter about it, in the context of exploring women’s sexual nature, illegal? Of course not. In anything like this, context is required. And because Trump was not convicted for grabbing a woman by the pussy, ever, we have to conclude that it was just idle banter between two men, exploring the secret dimensions of women’s true sexual nature.

I recall a comment from Trump’s son Eric, along the lines that his father was never convicted for so much as a traffic infringement. So your assertion that Trump has broken many laws requires you to back that up. Records please. Otherwise what you are alleging amounts to slander. In the absence of any formal conviction of any kind, it would appear that Trump has not broken any laws whatsoever. Trump University scandal? Maybe. Maybe he got away with “something”. But he was not charged with anything, so there it ends. No record, innocent till proven guilty, he’s not broken any laws. If he has, the onus is on you to prove it. And meanwhile, while your at it, you might like to also prove that Bill Clinton perpetrated rape, just to show that you’re impartial.

The FBI Clown-show today, under Biden, has become a joke. The Biden’s FBI Stasi are out to get Trump, so this is irrelevant, doesn’t prove anything.

Not surprising, given how Harris-Liberals constantly try to take things out of context, painting those whom they disagree with as criminals, even when they’ve never perpetrated any crime, and have no record of any criminal conduct anywhere, ever.

So are we elevating to the Teal Noosphere or backsliding into Orange-ish/Amber-ish regression?

@FermentedAgave

I think the obvious answer to me is “both”.

Some people seem determined to backslide. They want to close their eyes and ride that Trump slip and slide all the way down to Oblivion. Some people chose the slide on the left some the one on the right.

Part of backsliding is a desire to force others to our views. Both extremes do this. But once we establish this is Amber, then it’s absurd and counterproductive to join in on the opposite end of the extreme. Amber is is Amber whether our political outlook is the left or the right.

The only real thing we can do is make sure we ourselves are not backsliding. Yes, Green activism often seems to backslide to Amber. The answer of course isn’t to never enter Green Pluralism. Part of the answer is to spot why Green Activism fails - then to embrace Green Pluralism and not do the parts that fail, lol. Then quickly get beyond Green because Green is a tough place to be in an Amber / Red world.

Let’s take grabbing women by the pussy as an example. This is an Infrared Archaic urge men have. There may also be an Archaic Urge in some women to have their pussy grabbed. I also have other Archaic urges and many individuals in this closeted society have reciprocal urges. Here’s the thing - I can’t just go and execute those brutal urges on the general public, my secretary, or people I hold a position of power over. If I ever have the desire to do those Archaic acts, there are BDSM clubs to meet others who also have those interests.
But regardless of whether a person “wants it” - I cannot just tie up people, beat them and rape them. That is illegal unless they overtly agree that they want to receive that.
So we have a situation where a man in a position of power wanted more power and grabs women by the pussy. The argument of the “backsliders” is that women "want it’. They like having their pussies grabbed. So therefore let’s ignore 10,000 years of social development and say it’s ok. Tomorrow let’s tie them up and gang rape them and use the reasoning that “some women like that” to make it ok. Sure. Let’s regress to a society where Archaic urges are acceptable. Good idea. (sarcasm)

Does this mean that you have to drink the Left Cool Aide? No. You just have to recognize what is a blatantly absurd position and when taken by the leader of the country, that it is really bad for the country as a whole. I have a ton of LGBT friends. Does that mean I have to be LGBT? no, lol. I can accept their political opinions as valid or invalid, depending on the merits of those positions.

Several years ago I had some friends who were into some really far-out “Green” natural birthing beliefs. They ended up having CPS get involved. They were friends and I am mostly against CPS most of the time, but in their case I was like “Ummmm … that’s a little extreme, there.” and they got upset and are not friends now, lol. Their beliefs were not appropriate for our modern age. (It had to do with not cutting off the placenta and a few other things).

We cannot elevate others to the “Teal Noosphere”. It can’t be done. The only thing we can do is at least try to be in that place ourselves. Sometimes we may succeed and other times we fail, just like learning any other new thing. But one way to surely fail is to go directly to Archaic, Red, Amber or even Orange because we are angry about what “the other side” is doing or saying. Because at Turquoise there isn’t “the other side”. The idea of an opponent to be against is not possible at Turquoise and Teal is a space to learn and practice that.

I think safe to assume the vast majority of people in society don’t often act upon the criminal behaviors you’ve discussed. The overwhelming majority of people in western societies do have their archaic urges under control.

Perhaps we might look at the lives that the majority of people DO live. Perhaps we can investigate what Green Pluralism is, in the real world, through a few examples.

Religious Worship: Is a church being filled with every “identity” that we hear so much about today - LGBTQIA+, Black, LatinX, People of Color, White, Asian… It’s a Church, so obviously Christianity is a commonality of community at some level for everyone in this case. Is this community “Pluralistic”?

Political Party: After these people walk out of church they may each be heading to the Democratic, Libertarian, Republican or Communist Party volunteer events and fund raisers. We can look into, as an example, the Republican Party event and see Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and all races represented. Is this community “Pluralistic”?

Social Clubs/Sports Teams: Someone goes to the golf, kanu, rock climbing, cycling, yoga, or running club with people of all walks of life, races, identities, religions. Is this community “Pluralistic”?

Family: Then we can follow our “average” family into their home where the husband and wife are from different races, different linguistic groups, speaking different native tongues, freely sharing cultural traditions. The family sends money back to the “old country” to support both family and unknowns that need support. Is this family “Pluralistic”?

Is it talking about Pluralism what makes one a certain altitude, or is it how they live their lives that would make them Pluralistic?
Do some certain archaic urges disqualify someone from being Pluralistic?
Is utilization of a “new lingo” a prerequisite for attaining higher altitudes or can someone through being-inhabiting-living be considered Pluralistic?
Likewise are some Pluralisms worth more on the developmental score card?

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Obviously it is how they live their lives. It doesn’t matter at all if a person is Christian or if they go to Church, but if they live their lives like Christ then I would say they are far beyond pluralistic. Other spiritual traditions as well. The point being that membership in a group does not suddenly give anyone any status. Republican or Democrat are irrelevant, as is religious affiliation. Yes, it is possible for a Republican to act like Christ, but the party affiliation is the irrelevant part. There are far more non-Christlike members of both parties - or we would not be in this situation.

No - the example I was giving was specifically a man in power (Donald Trump) acting out his urges, saying it was ok, and a large percentage of the population saying it was ok for him to act out his urges because “some women want to be grabbed by the pussy”.
It is specifically the acting out of the Archaic urges and blindness to it that are a huge problem.
However - I believe some Christian denominations will say you are going to hell if you have those urges.

No. However, being “allergic” to such lingo reveals a resistance to the concepts. Why did people get upset when they first heard “Black Lives Matter”. It seems a no brainer. But some people fly into a rage at the idea and want to say “what about me?” lol

I would say so, yes.
Sexual harassment, racial harassment are probably worse than not using invented pronouns. Lynching and cross burning could be deemed as worse. Plotting to kidnap a Governor, sexual assault (aka grabbing) and so forth. Yes, there are many that are far worse than others.

It’s funny to me how you continually make this dig. But also brings back from fond memories of my single days dating some very naughty women. Lots of fun was had by all. Guess I am not famous enough to get sued over it now. LOL…

If the majority of the population is happy calling a cheeseburger a cheeseburger, are they “resistant” to Veganism by refusing to call a cheeseburger a murderburger per the Vegan communities desire/demand?
Should lingo for the sake of lingo always be adopted?

Knowing what you know now, do you consider “Black Lives Matter” a Pluralistic organization with Pluralistic leadership with Pluralistic goals?

These aren’t Pluralisms but crimes that very few people in our society commit. Obviously it’s safe to assume someone isn’t Pluralistic if they are lynching people.

Are there aspects of Pluralism that rank higher than others, similar perhaps to the Intersectionality rankings?
Are you more Pluralistic, essentially more Integral, if you marry an Athiest, Muslim, Transsexual, Democrat, Illegal Alien, Black or Asian?

This is my exact point.

The rest of what I am saying you are either deliberately choosing to ignore or subconsciously supressing it but either way I don’t see the benefit of talking in circles ore repeating myself.

Seems I struck a nerve when asking for your Pluralism Rankings. Simple discussion on who is/isn’t and how/why they are/aren’t Pluralistic, which leads to Integral.

New Yorkers have been groping each other in clubs for decades with both gropers and gropees grinning with drug induced sexual euphoria. I hear even homosexuals and gender fluids do the same in clubs as well. Police have been concocting conspiracies in order to “save the day” for millennia. Criminals have been committing both heinous and petty crimes since dawn of humanity. And all of humanity deals with these archaic urges best they can, or not.

No, you didn’t strike a nerve. lol
Second I wasn’t even doing a ranking in pluralism.
You say obviously people who commit crimes are not Pluralistic and I agree. Obviously Trump Committed a Crime, so he therfore cannot be pluralistic. It is in fact illegal to sexually harrass people in an organization that you have a position of power within. That is 100% the law. I don’t know why Trump get an exception to this most obvious rule.

I said:

And you apparently ignore that and ask this:

You either are ignoring what I said concsiously or subconsciously. Regardless of what it is, it’s kind of pointless for me to keep saying the same thing and have you completely ignore it.

I think you keep repeating things because you THINK it “strikes a nerve” when in fact it just suggest to me that you have some problems yourself and perhaps these issues strike a nerve with you far more than me.

Maybe bold will help:
Being a member of any group does not suddenly give anyone any kind of pluralist or integral status.
However, membership in a group may categorically mean you are NOT pluralistic. For example, Aryan Nation, KKK and Proud Boys are organizations with anti-pluralist agendas and supporting their missions is an anti-pluralist act.

Groping random woman in a club is also a good way to get shot or at least beat up when you go to the rest room or at the very very least 86ed from the club. Go ahead and try it. Good luck.

The key in a club is CONSENT. You better make sure you have consent before you grab a woman’s pussy in a club, for sure.

Good to hear I didn’t strike a nerve. Not my intent in the inquiry.

Of course Ray. So when a woman saunters up, you pat your lap, she sits down and grinds into your crotch feeling your hard-on, you then squeeze her thigh, she feeds you a drink of champagne and spreads her legs and kisses you, you then rub up her tight sliding up and slipping your hand into her panties is not uncommon in night clubs. Or you can play out the Midnight Cowboy version with two dudes feeling each other up, without ever saying a word. Happens all the time and even if archaic urges are in play, I wouldn’t think it indicates someone is more or less Pluralistic than the devout Jehovah’s Witness.

Is there a “power dynamic” at play here? Perhaps a misogynistic display of patriarchal privilege? Or two humans enfolding their archaic desires.

When the nation was in an uproar over Bill Clinton feeling up the flight attendant, I was not shocked nor morally outraged. Did she rub against him. Did she push him away when he gently laid his had on her waist. Did she smile when he started sliding his hand up her dress. Did she widen her stance as he slipped a finger in her panties. Or did he violently grope her committing sexual assault - patriarchal power play if you will? While my political and moral opinion of Bill Clinton might not be the highest, I still don’t know what happened so simply do not concern myself with it. Was President Clinton abusing his power? Was she a Gold Digger looking for favor or riches? Or was it simply a horny guy and a horny girl groping each other?

We saw a college kid get charged with rape. He claimed “consensual sex”. She charged “rape”. Video cameras showed the lady kissing and crawling all over him, signing him in to her dorm, then dragging him by the arm to the elevator and up to her room. What would justice look like in this case?

Thanks Ray. My question was more one of associating with other Intersectionality groups rather than “belonging” to the group. If a white man marries a black woman is he more Pluralistic than the asian man that marries native american woman? Is a gay man choosing to have sex with asian men more Pluralistic than a hetero man having sex with latina women?

Absolutely agree that some organizations are NOT pluralistic. KKK and Aryan Nation would be great examples. Proud Boys aren’t race based so should they get a bit of Pluralistic credit since they are solely political based?
What about Black Lives Matter? Should they be considered a Pluralistic group knowing what we know now?

No - these are surface behaviors. They are not identity nor internal mental or emotional processes. I can give $1 million to charity and still be a miser. The devil is in the details and the internal, not external behavior.
I would argue that Integral is not a measurable external behavior.
You can put whatever names you want. You can put the Mickey Mouse Club. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat the same thing.

So BLM - what is the intent or reason why the person supports BLM? As I said, just being a member of a group does not qualify anyone for pluralistic status. Nor does BLM disqualify. An 80 year old white male Navy war veteran who just wants to say Black People should not get murdered by police and then is assaulted by police has a completely different motivation than teenagers who just want to raise hell or Proud Boys disguiesd as Antifa who commit arson on local businesses in order to create chaos.

What was the final verdict of the Jury and Appeals court process? I’ll go with what a jury decided in each case and if the sentence was maintianed through appeals. That is a perfectly Orange rational way to look at it. Green would not be judging guilt or innocence except though Green Shadow.

No. Again, Membership means nothing. A group can put whatever they want on internet their home page and it does not change the facts on the ground.
Again - a group cannot get “pluralistic credit”

Now - is it possible that there is one or two confused people in the Proud Boys who don’t realize what is going on? Yeah, that’s reomotely possible. It would be really hard though when they actuall openly and officially advocate violence and are openly against Islam, and have been convicterd by juries of their peers for various identity related crimes. Moreover, when many of the Proud Boys convicted also had affiliations with other groups with openly racist agendas.

Ok - So I missed on the Proud Boys. I don’t actually follow them. LOL

So I agree it’s not about “group membership”. What I’m trying to look at are behaviors and actions in the real world. Perhaps I view external behaviors as manifestation of internal states - not a facade to manipulate Power Dynamics and “trick” everyone. I think outside of a few Narcissists, people can’t really put on that much of an “act”.

Personally I don’t see marrying someone as a “surface behavour”. In my religion, marriage is a Holy Sacrament, beyond the vanity of ego or surface.

Essentially if someone exhibits, inhabits, manifests a Pluralistic life what more is there? Or is living a Pluralistic life insufficient to be considered Green or perhaps on-the-edge of Integral?

I rowed a double scull with a homosexual with virulent AIDS. He warned me that he had bouts of diarrhea and vomiting and to not touch any bodily fluids since they were highly contagious as he was dying. Since we were in extremely close quarters frankly it scared me. Repulsion initially if you will, just as I would be repulsed by someone holding a hand grenade. And I yet I still rowed with him. Should we cling to my initial revolt at exposure to AIDS or having careful weighted the threat and continued rowing with him?

Here we’d have to get into psychology. Most psychological and spiritual teachings identify 3 aspects of the identity. Call it Id, Ego and Superego - or whatever.

We vistited this slightly in our discussion of Intrinsic vs extrinsic religious behavior. Whether Christians or New Age Hippies - there are many who go through the motions of the spritual practice for whatever reasons but never actually “get it”. So we have plastic Yoga mats and spandex and sexual tantra on the left and televangelism on the right. The first person everyone tries to fool is themself. Again - this is well examined in psychology. Jung called the face we present to the world as our Persona.

Even with marriage - some people view it as a Holy Sacrament while some men found their brides in the brothels of Manila or Bangkok. Their marriages are little more than legal prostitution. Money for ownership papers in the guise of a marriage. So again it depends on the internal rather than the external.

I wouldn’t be too hard on yourself for being concerned about an infectious disease. If I was 20 again and wrestling or sparring I might want participants to be tested due to the real chance of blood contact.

Most disturbingly, the left will lie to steal an election.

Even more disturbingly, the right actually DID lie to steal an election. Even tried to send “fake electors” (as his own lawyer called them) to D.C., and to get Pence to tip the scales by declaring Trump winner of an election he objectively lost. And even after all this time, the right continues to lie about the election being stolen, despite these claims being laughed out of court dozens of times (often by Trump-appointed judges), and many of the lawyers being stripped of their credentials for pushing such fraudulent claims, resulting in the first non-peaceful transfer of power in modern American history. Even FermentedAgave posted some fairly conclusive evidence above that the election was in no way “stolen”, with an abstract that reads:

Abstract

After the 2020 US presidential election Donald Trump refused to concede, alleging widespread and unparalleled voter fraud. Trump’s supporters deployed several statistical arguments in an attempt to cast doubt on the result. Reviewing the most prominent of these statistical claims, we conclude that none of them is even remotely convincing. The common logic behind these claims is that, if the election were fairly conducted, some feature of the observed 2020 election result would be unlikely or impossible. In each case, we find that the purportedly anomalous fact is either not a fact or not anomalous.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2103619118

“Trump, meanwhile lies like any other politician lies… it’s not nice, but thankfully, he’s no worse than any other that has gone before. It’s just business as usual.”

No, Trump’s lies are magnitudes greater than “other politicians”, both in terms of quantity and quality. Spreading self-serving lies about his election being stolen is one of the most dangerous lies you can spread in a democracy – which, again, resulted in the first non-peaceful transfer of power in modern American history.

This is far, far worst than Clinton lying about a blowjob. It’s probably about on par with Bush lying about WMDs, resulting in the death of 1 million Iraqis, except in this case it resulted in the delegitimization of our own Constitution.

“The left doesn’t like Trump. That’s all it is. He’s broken no laws, he’s not done anything unconstitutional. It’s just that the left hate him. That’s what it comes down to. It has a name. TDS.”

Hard disagree. And honestly, accusing anyone who dislikes Trump as having “TDS” is just a cynical way to shut down the conversation and avoid the many substantial criticisms that folks have.

  • Conspiring to send “fake electors” so he can steal a presidential election is, by definition, blatantly unconstitutional.
  • Stealing top secret confidential documents, keeping them at Maralago, and refusing to return them after many attempts to retrieve them is blatantly illegal.
  • Pressuing officials in Georgia to somehow find the 11,000 votes he needed to win the election was illegal.
  • Manafort just plainly admitted to illegally handing private polling data to the Russians, as was found by the GOP-led bipartisan investigation report.
  • Trump kids stole money from their own charity. For children. Illegal.
  • If we are so concerned about Hunter Biden (who has no government position, and whose laptop was investigated by Trump’s team over multiple months, after which it was decided there was nothing they were able to prosecute him for), then you must be REALLY pissed at how Trump’s kids were able to use their positions and proximity to Trump to literally pull in billions of dollars while being active members of the administration.

Of course, I could always just flip this claim, so we can see how this plays on either end: “The right doesn’t like Biden. That’s all it is. He’s broken no laws, he’s not done anything unconstitutional. It’s just that the right hate him. That’s what it comes down to. It has a name. BDS.”

Also worth noting that “TDS” was originally coined by the left during the Obama years, when the GOP was obsessed with dijon mustard and tan suits. This was the root of “ODS”, or “Obama Derangement Syndrome”. However, I think TDS works really well — Trump is in fact delusional, and his reality distortion field amplifies his delusions until they thoroughly infect his most diehard supporters :slight_smile:

Essentially if someone exhibits, inhabits, manifests a Pluralistic life what more is there? Or is living a Pluralistic life insufficient to be considered Green or perhaps on-the-edge of Integral?

As Ray says, these are all exterior surface features that may or may not reflect interior deep features. It is very difficult to gauge one’s interior development based on the visible behaviors that we can observe. If anything, it’s because we don’t know what these people are like in different contexts, or behind closed doors. Everyone puts on an “act”. Even you. Even me. The question is, how aware are we of our degree of authenticity or inauthenticity at any given moment?

Stages of development refer to the various complexities of interior thought that different people are capable of (at least in terms of the cognitive line), which ends up producing different views, values, and behaviors (each of which correspond to other developmental lines, which typically lag a stage or two behind the cognitive). It’s a person’s capacity to take multiple perspectives, and to fold these multiple perspectives together in different ways. At the green level, it’s s capacity for genuine systemic thinking (which is why the healthy forms of progressivism/wokism tend to emerge out of mature green, and the unhealthy forms often come from lower-stage enactments of those ideas), radically inclusive values, and worldcentric concerns. It describes a cognitive capacity for perspectivism, pluralism, and constructivism.

This is why, for example, someone can have an Orange cognition, and “play an orange game” while interacting with others, while coming from a predominantly Red stage of values, ethics, intrapersonal capacities, etc. But we can’t see the main drivers of a person’s behavior, only the behavior itself, which is often too little information for us to accurately reconstruct the person’s interior.

Also important to note that, when a “later” stage gets adopted by the rest of society, it has a way of re-translating prior stages.

For example, as I’ve mentioned before, in 1958 only something like 8% of the population supported interracial marriage. These days it’s more like 94%. Does that mean that everyone suddenly popped out of the amber stage, into Orange and Green? Well some of them, maybe, but studies suggest that upward of 60% of people continue to have an amber center of gravity today – yet interracial marriage still has such high majority support. How could this be?

Simple: once Green was adopted by society (and all the civil rights legislation that emerged from this stage), this effectively reformatted what it means to be “ethnocentric” in America. Later stages exert a regulatory force on prior stages.

And this is real progress, and progress that should be celebrated! But we should be clear what kind of progress it actually represents. It’s a progress of better/healthier horizontal translation, not necessarily one of vertical transformation.

So when it comes to something like “Green christianity”, which certainly exists (but much more rare than traditional Amber versions), all of those participants would definitionally have needed to first grow through Orange, because there is no skipping stages. Which means, if you are a Green Christian, you probably no longer believe that Christ was literally born from a biological virgin, you probably no longer believe that Moses literally parted the Red Sea, you probably no longer believe that Noah literally filled a boat with two of every animal on the planet. There is still Faith, there is still Mystery, there is still God — but enacting these things no longer requires you to believe in the various kinds of traditional myth that has surround them for centuries. A Green Christian would be perfectly fine with using a person’s preferred pronouns as a sign of respect (though they would likely resist the idea that such speech be made mandatory, if they have integrated their Orange in a healthy way.) A Green Christian would never identify themself as a “Christian nationalist” (even while perhaps being a patriotic Christian American in their everyday life.)

So when it comes to “ethnocentrism”, there are all sorts of ways to draw the “us vs. them” line. It doesn’t only need to be based on ethnicity. It can be drawn on partisan lines, religious lines, nationalist lines, etc. Which means that, even if you have multiple ethnicities in your Church, if that Church is still emphasizing myths and beliefs and narratives over a) direct experience, b) empirical reality, or c) minimally-rational humanitarianism, then chances are it’s still an Amber church.

And here’s the thing — there is nothing wrong with that. It only becomes a problem when Amber attempts to assert its views on everyone else. Which can be anything from banning abortion, to banning gay marriage, to banning books, to forcing schools to hang “In God We Trust” signs. (Which is the same criticism I have for the Amber ethnocentric segments of the left, who also try to assert their views on everyone else.)

This is why it’s important to make room for all stages, but equally important to govern from the highest stages available. We live in a society with a value stack that runs from Amber through Orange to Green, with a dim possibility of Integral emergence in the future as life conditions continue to present themselves.

Which means that our solutions need to find a way to align that values stack, rather than privileging the earlier stages in the stack over everyone else. Amber is at its best when constrained by Orange, Orange is at its best when constrained by Green, and Green is at its best when constrained by Teal. And there are versions of Christianity, for example, at every one of these altitudes, even if they don’t necessarily think of each other as being “real Christians”.

And it’s not like these structures ever go away as we continue to grow and develop. We don’t lose ego altogether when we evolve into ethnocentric stages. We don’t lose ethnocentricity altogether when we evolve into worldcentric stages. Rather, the earlier structures are reformatted and “put in service” of the higher stages. I just talked to Ken about this over the weekend in our latest episode.

For example, we here in Integral Land have our own ethnocentricity — e.g. my job is to create integral content for integral people. That is a “soft” ethnocentrism, an “integrated” ethnocentrism, which is put in service of my higher worldcentric and kosmocentric values. We can still have an “us”, we can even still have a “them”, but the line between them becomes far more permeable and far less opaque. I’ll still save my own family in a fire before everyone else’s. I’ll still put my own oxygen mask on before my kid’s, because that would be an act of ego-centrism that is in direct service to the larger ethnocentrism I feel for my own family. Et cetera.

I totally disagree with you on this. Believing that the election was stolen is different to lying that the election was stolen. Trump’s heart-felt belief was that the election was stolen. And we see, from Sam Harris’s comments, that Trump’s belief was not baseless:

That doesn’t answer the people who say, ‘It’s still completely unfair to not have looked at the laptop in a timely way and to have shut down the New York Post Twitter account; that’s a left-wing conspiracy to deny the presidency to Donald Trump.’ Absolutely it was, absolutely. But I think it was warranted.

“But I think it was warranted?” These are the kinds of people that Trump is up against. The “anything goes”, “do whatever it takes” crowd for whom the end justifies the means. Trump will probably lose the next election, because this crowd will do whatever it takes to make sure that he never returns to politics.

As a businessman in a previous life, Trump was exposed to the results-oriented world of competitive negotiations, and he developed an instinct for spotting frauds. This kind of businessman is typically suspicious of the two-faced bureaucracies that are inclined to manipulate outcomes in secret and out of sight. Trump believed what he saw, felt certain of it, and so his belief that the election was stolen was not a lie, even remotely.

As for the claim that his lies are greater than other politicians? I’ve worked in government for a time. I’ve been exposed to the subtle, behind-the-scenes lies that manipulate agendas within bureaucracies. They are a different category of lie to those that play out in results-oriented, in-your-face negotiations. I’m not saying one is better than the other, but is there a reason why you might believe that the silent, behind-the-scenes lying habituated by two-faced bureaucrats is the more ethical?

The neo-cons lying about WMD, by contrast, was indeed lying of the self-serving kind.

I don’t know the details. I’d ask for a link, but I’m sure you’re busy. Likewise, I’m busy, and every time someone sends me a link to prove their point, I dig deeper, only to discover that I was right the first time. When Harris mentioned that heinous Trump University scandal, I did my research, only to discover that, while the scandal was indeed nothing to be proud of, it was in no measure of the scale of criminality that Harris so yearned it to be. Fake electors? Tell you what, I’ll google it myself shortly, see if it’s just another leftist smokescreen.

As alleged by Biden’s FBI Stasi? Doesn’t mean anything. Empty.

The essential point that I want to make is that all-too-often the far left make allegations, and when you look more closely into it, factoring in the broader context, it always turns out to be fluff motivated by wishful thinking.

Trump kids stole money? I’d have to look into it. But what are the odds that it was sloppy, careless oversight on their part, far removed from anything resembling cynical intent and self-interest?

Manafort? This goes back a bit, old news. Trump was rather careless with whom he chose as allies. He had issues with giving and receiving loyalty. What was the broader context? I can’t remember.

Context, context, context. Trump’s far-left opponents always make their allegations out of context. How convenient.