Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

Town Square
864

I love how your rhetoric and name calling is such a clear tell when you have no actual worthy position.

Indeed - you focus on Biden, Biden, Biden - oh, he called someone a bad name.
You know who else called someone names? I’ll give you one guess = who called so many people names daily that it’s absurd to even bring up Biden calling one person a White Supremacists? Who is the person most well known for name calling - and is also facing several actual defamation lawsuits in the courts?
This begs the question - Is Kyle Rittenhouse actually going to sue in the courts? Does he have an actual legal basis - as the several people suing Trump do? Or is this just another example of Biden Derangement Syndrome? Oh, boo hoo hoo - the racist was called a racist by the President, so sad. Oh - now your feelings are hurt because I called him a racist just now. Well, suck it, lol.

865
866

@raybennett Just so happened that the “one person” was not a public figure and happened to be a minor. Slandering a minor across multiple news outlets and incorporating the slander into a Presidential campaign is a little more than name calling between major political figures.

And Ray, it’s irrelevant what you or I think. I’m just posting relevant information to Info War, Propaganda and perhaps how to tell the difference. You’re trying to “tell the difference”, just as Corey and myself are as well. We’ll get through it Brother!

867

Glad they’re putting up a fight. They’re facing a very tough invader and consequences could lead to overall Asian and global regression.

I’ve always wondered why the Integral Community doesn’t steal from so many other societies and organizations’ playbooks of helping those that in very low tier along the conveyor belt situations. Guess it’s much more convenient to snipe away from the comfort of a 1st world home office on a high speed broadband connection while the smoker is slow roasting meats outdoors.

868

“I personally don’t know anyone that aligns with it. Do YOU know anyone personally that aligns with the rhetoric represented in their clips?”

Well, Marjorie Taylor Greene sure seems to. What political party does she represent again?

I love how time and time again, when confronted with the very vocal extremists in your party, you just brush it off and play the “no true Scotsman” game. These guys are conservatives, whether you admit it or not, and they exert real influence in your party. You can tell, because idiots like Greene, Boebert, and Madison are getting elected to the national stage, with the full support of the MAGA crowd, and openly endorsing the attempted overthrow of our government by the far right wing.

869

Well you definitely don’t “play fair” @corey-devos . You’re not being intellectually honest here.
You know full well you’re cherry picking the AOCs, Talibs, Abrahms, Waters whack job equivalents. Does AOC “represent” you?
Does Ilhan Omar “represent” a Teal Noosphere?

870

Well they aren’t speaking at white nationalist conferences, lying about a stolen election, or supporting the overthrow of our democracy, so I’d say they represent me far better than Greene, Boebert, Gosar, Hawley, or Madison, sure. I’d vote for AOC in a heartbeat before those folks.

And no, none of these people represent a “teal noosohere” because none of these people have teal cognition. But being integral isn’t about making everyone integral, as I’ve discussed many times in the past.

You post straight up propaganda and cherry-picked comments all the time in this group, while calling us all Marxist collectivists because we don’t subscribe to your own ideology, and you accuse me of not playing “fair”?

871

“ I think this actually shows perhaps equal helpings of lack of authenticity and incompetence.”

No I think this does a much better job capturing that vibe :rofl:

872

Personally, I think the GOP is in a very awkward place. They are anti-woke, largely because they think the wokists are overstating their case about the prevalence of things like racism and white nationalism. And yet they refuse to call out the obvious white nationalists waving their flag, even denying they exist in the first place. “No, those don’t count”, is the response, despite the fact that these people are getting elected to federal positions somehow, indicating that a sizable plurality of the population actively supports these regressive ideas.

Both woke and MAGA are basically reactionaries reacting to reactionaries. The very existence of white nationalism power structures on the right, and the failure of the rest of the right to expel this thinking from their party, enables the wokists to perceive the problem they way they do, and then overreact they way that they do.

But the problem, of course, is that the GOP relies on these votes in order to maintain their power, so they can’t call them out too much or else they will be abandoned at the polls, or primaried by people who are much further to the right than they are. That’s why you have McConnell openly describing January 6 as an insurrection, while the rest of the party calls it “legitimate political discourse”. That way you have plausible deniability on both ends.

Can we both admit that white nationalism is still alive and well in this country, that these folks have a natural affinity for Putin (anti-left, anti-gay, anti-immigrant, etc.), and exerts enough influence to get their preferred candidates elected into national office?

873

You view Greene, Madison, Gosar, Hawley, and Boebert are “white nationalists” which have a “natural affinity” for Putin’s anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-left, no? Am I getting this correct?

Do you see black nationalists, latino nationalists, gay nationalists, immigrant nationalists as well?

874

@FermentedAgave
Politics aside, there is a point I see you make regularly that I think is key here.
1st Tier does not get to “negotiate” 2nd Tier. They don’t get to “vote” on it, or decide what is the best way for 2nd Tier to interact with them. I’m sure there are a lot of people who will disagree with me, but I think that appeasing 1st Tier and and letting them decide how, when and under what conditions they are willing to “integrate” - just isn’t how it works.
1st tier people, cultures and organizations will continue to experience 1st Tier consequences for 1st tier methods and reactions. Red reactions breed red consequences - all the way up to too much green leads to being “woke”, antiwoke reactions and all the consequences we see in that.

Now with the Russia starting actual war and escalating it’s nuclear alert level … as I keep saying and as you seem to be denial about - this crisis facing humanity will NOT be limited to BLM and a few cities like Portland.

The whole nature of 1st Tier is that people and communities that live there get “overtaken by events” - they can’t rise above what level they are primarily at. So it’s absurd to think that 2nd Tier needs to change to accommodate THEM in a way that THEY want. That’s impossible.

Nor will they be “dragged kicking and screaming” anywhere by 2nd Tier. No, they are 100% responsible for whatever fucked up level they are stuck at, lol. That’s just how it is. The Teal noosphere has to be completely voluntary and requires completely dropping the heaviness and all investment and self interest in all the absurdity of 1st Tier baggage. And it’s not a permanent state like some people still believe “spirituality to be”. It’s also always possible to regress.

“Helping” is, I believe a very “Green” urge - and when done without thought just to be “Nice / Good / Green” - it’s unhealthy and counterproductive. Yes, of course 1st Tier would probably like some kind of “conveyor belt”, but that’s not going to happen. Yes, of course Green and “helping” is part of Teal, but not helping and accepting is as well.

Now back to politics:

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A person flashing a gang symbol attending an event hosted by that gang can CLAIM they don’t know what it means, and a person flashing a white supremacist symbol with others in a picture can CLAIM none of them know what it means and they never ever ever discussed any white supremacist topics.
Sorry, I just call complete bullshit on that. Kyle Rittenhouse flashed a specific symbol at an event hosted by a specific organization. Now when he faces the consequences for his actions, he turns coward and denies his own convictions that he held when showing those signs and paying money to attend that event.
He’s under 18? So what? He chose very specific actions and now he bears the consequences.
There is no way that I am going to feel any kind of guilt for saying he’s a white supremacist and associates with white supremacists, and there’s no way in hell I’m going to be “nice” just because he’s a few months shy of crossing some magic 18 year mark.
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Not Rettenhouse, but adds context:
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875

Looks like The Media Accountability Project will have it’s work cut out.

And yes, I “get it” your point on the SHTF globally. Whatever happens near term, I think safe to say that EuroAsian will be a “rough neighborhood” for decades. All we lack is for East Asia to devolve into turmoil and military conflict as well.

I think with the COVID19, Ukrainian invasion and Olympics we are seeing a significant gap in the “sales pitch” vs the “implementation” for this New World Collectivism Noosphere.

876

First off, I never actually said they were white nationalists. I said white nationalism is a real thing with real influence, and many of these folks are trying to get their votes. I think that if you are speaking at white nationalist events, and saying anything other than “guys this is wrong”, then you are pretty explicitly trying to court their votes.

Are these politicians white nationalists at heart? Some of them, maybe — that one candidate in the video above certainly is, she says so plainly. But I don’t actually know their interiors, only their behaviors. Best case, they are cowardly opportunists who know the only way to maintain power is to perform on stage for these groups.

877

Wanted to circle back on this.

One thing puzzling that I don’t think I’ve seen answered with clarity is why Integralists are so hell bent on changing the cultures/nations at the very forefront of development.

If you look at “easy impact”, bringing forward the majority Red, Amber societies into the 21st century yield the greatest gains. While I see your point on “you can’t make them develop”, that is where the greatest gain is to be found. And it might be even most difficult with those that are most developed.

So while the Integral community gyrates through ideologies and political squabbles, there is seemingly an aversion to “rolling up the sleeves” to practicing Transform and Include/Include and Transform.

Case in point would be Christian Missionary works or perhaps your Big Kahuna giving back to the community. Through this type of work, let’s say the Teal (if that’s even theoretically possible for a Christian :slight_smile:) or Green leaders can and do appeal to the entire community to donate and saddle up to help train people in horrible situations how to create better lives for themselves. It’s a “cross altitude” effort that very likely helps develop the lower altitude folks.
One side benefit is that they rarely do anything to “take” or “piss off” others, other than perhaps the mafia that’s enjoy essentially slave labor or anti-Christian Leftists. It’s a 100% “opt in” or “inclusion” approach. No mandated and subsequently enforced “compassion” or “generosity”. All personal and community “opt in” development if you will.

Which is more sustainable. Political dominance or “walk together”?

878

It’s “transcend and include”, not “transform and include.” That is, transformation is a continuing process of “transcend and include”. That “transcend” piece is very important, and you keep forgetting it.

What you call “cultures at the forefront of development” we call “cultures that consist of amber, orange, and green stages, often broken versions of these stages, where each stage believes their values are the predominant values, which sends us into a perpetually unsolvable culture war”.

The orange stage began to reorganize society when about 10% of Europeans in the Renaissance developed to that stage. The same happened with green in the early 20th century, leading to its tipping point in the 1960s. The same will happen with the integral stage, by whatever name, when a similar cohort hits a similar tipping point.

Of course integral is going to emerge in “cultures at the forefront of development”, and therefore reflect on their own cultures, because integral doesn’t emerge in a vacuum, it emerges in societies after green is already in place.

879

Would you describe this as the tactic you are trying to take with the left? Do you think members of the GOP saying things like “leftists are a greater threat to our country than all previous wars” is an example of trying to “walk together”?

It’s funny to me how important superlatives are to the right in order to sustain their voters emotions. It’s not just “we are critical of the left”, it’s “the left is the greatest threat our country has ever seen.” It’s not “I have criticisms of Joe Biden”, it’s “Biden is the most radical president in the history of this country”. It must get exhausting to have to sustain that pitch for so long.

880

@FermentedAgave I would like to give you a free enrollment in our Essence of Integral Flourishing course, if you are interested. I think you would enjoy it, and it will help give you a fuller; more “inside-out” familiarity with integral ideas. I think you’d also enjoy the PERMA model the course leverages, which helps cultivate a greater sense of happiness and fulfillment while running the integral operating system. It’s a terrific course.

I for one would love to see a new conservative movement that is rooted in ideas like this, and that can actually transcend and include the green stage. Since you are standing with one foot in each of these camps, perhaps you will be one of the people who this could emerge through.

I think you’d like the course. Let me know if you are interested.

881

@corey-devos You’re pretty good at finding extremely obscure information on your “bad people”. Not so sure I would post NopeWay. At least smash Subscribe so they can break 160 Subs…

So which is it? Is everyone you mentioned by name a white nationalist or not? You mentioned them by name for a reason.

You weren’t walking through a “framing game” with inferences were you: White = bad, Nationalism = bad, eech! White Nationalism = White Supremacist bad?

I HIGHLY recommend you pull the CPAC speakers list and give each an unbiased Intersectionality rating. Could you give Candice Owens a +7 even though she’s a straight conservative? Could you give Rubio a +3 even though he’s a conservative Latino? Tulsi Gabbard, Tim Scott, and all the others that are simply not qualified to fit your “white nationalist” boogieman categorization?

Sorry I wasn’t clear. I asked if YOU PERSONALLY know White Nationalists and you responded with Greene. Do you personally know any of these white nationalists?

Are you basing your assessment of Greene from “analysis” by your “authoritative” analysts being fact checked by Dave V Z LLC’s scan of opinions on Twitter and Facebook?

882

Thanks for the clarifications.

Do you have specific strategies and tactics (messaging / PR if you will) to influence say healthy Orange, malignant gangrene, slightly tweaked Amber?
How will you impact each segment since clearly a healthy Green won’t respond to the slap down that an unhealthy Red with knife to a throat might require?

Or perhaps, just let the monkey fight over the bananas? :slight_smile:

883

I’m not so concerned with what “Integralists” are doing, or the “Integral Life Community” but I’ll ask a few devils advocate questions:

1 - Are they?
2 - Are you only referring to technological development? What do you mean when you say “development”
3 - In the examples you give - there are many drawbacks to using large organizations like Christian Missionary works, and there is a moral conundrum of using food to convince people to go through the motions of spiritual worship (for example). I don’t think that is an Integral solution at all. So I think we have to separate charitable giving for the sake of just lending a hand vs charitable giving with the motive to convince people to do what they normally wouldn’t do. Which isn’t actual giving or charity, but coercion.

Again, a false binary choice. There are far, far more options than these two.
For example: 100% Watching someone flail about and allowing them to make mistakes, and the 99 degrees beteween that and codependence (my term for “walking together”), or at the opposite extreme there are 99 or more degrees before absolute dominance like in the Matrix or whatever.