Information Warfare Education, Propaganda, and How to Tell the Difference

Town Square
884

Largely no, with some exceptions, because integral has not yet hit that “tipping point” stage where we are directly intervening with the structures (both healthy and unhealthy) that are produced by earlier stages. We are more like the postmodernists in the 1950s, trying to find a way for something new to emerge. Which means that much of the integral project currently is about creating an “attractor point” to help convene like-minded and like-hearted people — mostly at the exit-green, teal, and turquoise stages. So we are mostly still in the “for integral, by integral” stage. Or what Ken calls “2:2 communication” — 2nd-tier-to-2nd-tier — as opposed to “2:1 communication” (2nd-tier-to-1st-tier, which requires a ton of very skillful means, and a capacity to translate integral ideas in a “deliberately partial” way in order to serve the growth, awakening, and clean up work for the greatest number of people possible.

That said, there are projects such as Integral Without Borders who are rolling up their sleeves and using integral ideas to improve developing nations in all sorts of fascinating ways. Check out the work of Gail Hochachka, one of my favorite human beings.

885

In this case, the “bananas” refer to increasingly scarce resources, made all the more scarce by global problems like climate change that no single nation alone can solve. So no, I don’t advocate letting the monkeys fighting for the bananas, because at the end of the day there would be far fewer monkeys left.

886

There you have it.

Human and societal development - the cornerstone of Integral Altitudes.

I’ve never seen this take place with those being helped. Now I would agree that getting young people to “opt in” to doing mission work is essentially “training” them. But that’s their chosen religion’s “conveyor belt” of development. Helping others, giving back, quite being a self child type stuff.

You are correct - I wasn’t clear. “Walk with” might be “get baptized” on one end of the spectrum or grabbing a shovel or hammer and working side-by-side digging a water well or building a chicken coup.

I personally leave the co-dependence end of the spectrum to the “drag’em kicking and screaming” crowd.
Although I think my wife has developed a co-dependence on me making coffee. Speaking of which… :wink:

887

Why would I do that? Do you think woke notions of flat intersectionality are important to me?

I’m more interested in “integral intersectionality” — that is, a framework of Kosmic address where we consider multiple vectors of growth, awakening, and identity in multiple zones/quadrants, rather than just the gross-level categories of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

888

Ok. Not seeing how your white nationalist post was headed towards Integral Intersectionality :rofl:

889

“Integral intersectionality” would call white nationalist conferences what they are — the product of broken amber, at war with both modernity and postmodernity, and has no place whatsoever in a worldcentric politics.

Are you trying to make a place for white nationalism? We generally try to transcend and include the healthy expressions of each stage. White nationalism would be an UNHEALTHY expression of Amber, we generally don’t include that, instead we “negate to preserve” the health of the rest of the spiral.

In other words, you can think something like “white nationalism” is bad for our society, without being a green woke Marxists collectivist. In fact, I am making an even stronger argument — that the continued existence of things like white nationalism is what creates things like “intersectionality” in the first place. Right problem, very limited (and often broken) solution.

You mentioned that organizations like AFPAC are regressive, irrelevant, and have no influence. Then I mentioned that both Greene and Gosar spoke at these conferences. Now I think you are in a trap — your tribal loyalties tell you that you cannot criticize these GOP representatives, or else you won’t be holding the line with the rest of your team, so your argument seems to have shifted to “what’s so bad about white nationalism, anyway? You are just playing games with intersectionalism.”

No, I am criticizing a political organization who explicitly push white nationalism messages, and I am criticizing the cowardly opportunists like Greene and Gosar who try to court their votes.

You keep mentioning the name of the YouTube account that posted the video. Do you think they edited the video to make her say something she didn’t say? Are you just trying to discredit the source — just an ordinary YouTube user — rather than deal with what that candidate said on stage?

I can find another video with more subscriptions, if that will help you deflect less :slight_smile:

890

And let me know if you’d like that free course enroll. Genuine offer.

891

A few more highlights from AFPAC:

"Now, they’re going and saying,’’Vladimir Putin is Adolf Hitler,’ as if that isn’t a good thing,” he said, before nervously laughing and adding, “Oops, I shouldn’t have said that.” —Nick Fuentes, organized or AFPAC.

“I’ve said we need to build more gallows. If we try some of these high-level criminals, convict them and use a newly built set of gallows, it’ll make an example of these traitors who have betrayed our country,” —Sen. Wendy Rogers, R-Flagstaff

Here’s a little something about the “Groypers” — a group that Nick Fuentes is part of — that you may find interesting:

892

Team Romney!

893

No, I am basing it on Greene’s own actions and words. Such as this video where she identifies herself as part of the Qanon movement:

894

So - white nationalism.
Before we get into trying to somehow say "White Nationalism isn’t “that bad”, lets talk about what White Nationalism means - literally and in practice.

Is it a bad thing or a good thing - lets start here.
Literally - is it a bad thing or a good thing to have an exclusively White America?
This is the “send them back where they came from” form of White Nationalism. Send them back to Africa and Mexico (and ignore Texas was part of Mexico and North America was 100% Native American).
This isn’t me giving people extremist views - these are actually ideas I was confronted with growing up, and they are actually in the pamphlets I received, lol.
Is it wrong to see people who have multiracial children as “race traitors”?

Then there is another less extreme form that I’ll call “Apartheid”, or in the USA we called it “Jim Crow”. Again, I literally grew up in communities where it was just commonly accepted that Afro Americans were thieves and rapists. I’m not exaggerating. That was 20 years after the civil rights movement.
What happened is that while many people deep down (yes, mostly on the right) still believe this, they are angry because they face social and legal penalties for saying what they believe.
So, is White Nationalism a good thing when it means a portion of the population cannot vote and are assumed to be criminals and rapists?

When people on the Right try to talk about White Nationalism, they try to do some kind of doublespeak. "Oh, Kyle Rittenhouse was at an event sponsored by White Nationalism and he showed White Nationalism symbols - but they never talked about White Nationalism and he had no idea any White Nationalism was present, because he was a few months under 18 and therefore a child and can’t understand these things.

Lol. Give me a break

So, when we talk about White Nationalism - is @FermentedAgave trying to make it sound like it is “not that bad”, or that people when people are in that social group White Nationalist topics never come up (like yoga is never discussed in a group where most the people practice yoga?)

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895

Thanks for the write up @raybennett . As I suspected by @corey-devos specific languaging, White Nationalism is not someone who happens to be White and is also pro American Nationalism.
This “white nationalism” seemingly feeds directly into the Far Left conspiracy theorists that White Supremists, Nazis or KKK if you will, are one of if not the primary motivating force behind today’s populist Conservatives.

To my knowledge I had no recollection of ever hearing of a Nick Fuentes nor until finding recently the AFPAC.
Well these groups are wildly popular with he Far Left based on searches. It looks as though Nick Fuentes delatforming has been effective enough that I cannot find easily original material. Everything seems to be Radical Left sources talking about.
But that’s OK by me. While I shudder at someone’s 1st Amendment rights potentially being violated, yes even a Nazi or a Racist Anarchist group like BLM, spending me with either isn’t of interest for me other than the occasional survey.

@corey-devos. I don’t know if you are intentionally obfuscatory in where you wanted to go with the discussion or if it shows you have a much deeper knowledge of White Nationalists as you define them than I do.
I’m actually so straight forward, or insufficiently awash in Leftist lingo, that I initially thought you meant a white person that was pro nationalism (all lower case).
Which while used as a pejorative from an Integral perspective a white integralist would of course include some level of nationalism. Hopefully you can see the bamfuzzling nature of these ever shifting terms. Seemingly standard English can take a back seat to narrative development.

But back to the trap you have laid which I am seemingly trying to extricate myself from and to also understand. I think it unhealthy for anyone to take a racial viewpoint - Fuentes, you, me, Robin D’Angelo, Woke, KKK, Nazis, BLM, whomever.

On to Nationalism. As we have discussed, I think America has been an amazing development for humanity albeit not without its issues, hurts, injustices. So am I a “Nationalist”. Absolutely. Do I live a pluralistic Green life with a somewhat global viewpoint. My wife’s family thinks so. Two of my very best friends think so. The people I work with think so. Can I be both/and nationalistic and globalist? I think Integral Theory would demand this.
Much as you claim an Integral Wokeist would claim “that’s racist” when you confront racism, are we so different?

Have a great evening.

896

Come on, I think you know that “white nationalism” does not mean “loving your country while happening to be white”. This is not some made up leftist lingo, and again, I think you know that. White nationalism means “our country should be grounded in white culture, and other races/ethnicities/cultures should be marginalized or excluded”. Just like “Christian nationalism” means “our country should be Christian only, another religions should be marginalized or excluded”.

It’s interesting that you only recently found out about AFPAC, Fuentes, etc. I seem to be teaching you so many things about your own party that were apparently in your blind spot! Just like when you apparently had never heard of Qanon, and continue to insist that Republicans have no idea who they are. Ha!

But yeah, my point remains. You first called AFPAC “regressive”, but once I told you that Greene and Gosar were there, you started to backtrack. “What even is white nationalism, anyway?” Even Mitt Romney was courageous enough to call these people what they are — morons.

So Greene and Gosar attended an event where the well-known white nationalist organizer said on stage, “they’re going and saying,’’Vladimir Putin is Adolf Hitler,’ as if that isn’t a good thing.”

And you want to talk about “bad optics”.

You also accuse me of enacting Greene through the lens of uber-woke leftist media. Then I shared a video of her saying, in her own words, while looking right into the camera, that she was a Qanon supporter.

You also told me I was hyperbolizing about Tucker Carlson telling people they should hate the left more than they hate Putin, and then I showed a video of him saying exactly that. Americans are being trained to hate each other more than they hate autocrats like Putin. And you want to call that “nationalism”?

There is nothing patriotic about telling Americans to hate fellow Americans more than they hate abusive autocrats outside the country. Trump saying “Putin is smart, our leaders are dumb”, and having his words blasted on Russian state TV, is not “patriotism” or “nationalism”.

(Of course, the same is happening on the left as well — according to a recent poll, more people on the left disapprove of Trump than they disapprove of Putin. Not as high of a margin as those on the right who disapprove of Biden more than Putin, but still, it shows that this is in fact a symptom of a deeper problem — the politics of hate, which are being intentionally peddled by our corporate media, for reasons I can only guess but appear obvious: to distract people from solvable class issues and get them to focus instead on unsolvable culture war issues.)

“I think it unhealthy for anyone to take a racial viewpoint - Fuentes, you, me, Robin D’Angelo, Woke, KKK, Nazis, BLM, whomever.”

Wait — so if someone was to say to you, “people who look like me are treated differently in economic and/or justice systems because of the color of our skin, and here is the objective evidence to support my claim”, you think that is just as unhealthy as someone else saying “America should be a white ethnostate”?

Is simply talking about race and racism now racist? I know you guys love the whole MLK “content of their character” thing — but are there any other MLK quotes that you think we might want to pay attention to? Maybe the part from the same speech, which says “until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream”?

MLK wasn’t teaching “color-blindness”, he was teaching “color-kindness”.

“the Far Left conspiracy theorists that White Supremists, Nazis or KKK if you will, are one of if not the primary motivating force behind today’s populist Conservatives.”

Is it really a “conspiracy theory” when they have their own very visible political organizations, such as AFPAC, which GOP leaders go out of their way to speak to? I mean, we have the video. Stop pretending that this stuff has no influence on your party. Again, just muster the minimum bar of courage as Mitt Romney has, and say “yes these people are morons and I wish the GOP would push them to the margins.” You know, the same thing I regularly say about Democrats and woke extremists.

897

Yeah, I mean this conversation makes me think of this movie scene:

There’s also an element of humor that I don’t know @FermentedAgave 's color, and I have this image of him being nonwhite and showing up at a “White Nationalist Party” with a case of beer and chips.

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🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🍻🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🍻🥱🥱🥱🥱😊🥱🥱🥱🍻🥱🥱🥱😘🥱🥱🥱🥱🍻🥱🥱🥱

899

Taylor represented the vast majority of the federal bureaucracy, most of them Democrats, almost all certainly liberal in outlook, and completely out of sync with Trump’s “America First” priorities. Under the designation of the Deep State, these bureaucrats had worked tirelessly to sabotage Trump’s policies and to undermine him personally. There is no need to rehash the uncritical role of politicized intelligence community operatives in inventing and spreading the Russia Collusion Hoax – or their role in convincing the public that Hunter Biden’s laptop full of incriminating documents, videos, and emails had somehow been invented by the Russians to help Trump. When the mainstream media refused to investigate the laptop and its confessions of corruption in the Biden family, it helped secure victory for Joe Biden and defeat for Trump.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2022/02/28/eulogy_for_a_bureaucrat_with_a_conscience_147257.html

900

@corey-devos These people are morons. I’ve said as much multiple times. But news flash - they are on the fringe, in the margins!

We actually agree on quite a lot Corey. But here we diverge based upon your “facts” which you are walking into “Equity” or equal outcomes. You can proclaim with religious verve that Equity - equal outcomes - “should” be the “law of the land” with DA’s that refuse to prosecute entire classes of crimes to “even things up”.

It’s a matter of implementation. You’re ok giving up Personal Agency for expansion of Government. Most Conservatives want less Government involved in less of our lives - i.e. increased Personal Agency. hence the appeal to “Drain the Swamp” initatives. It’s the basic Individual primary, Collective secondary vs Collective primary, Individual secondary conundrum.

To answer your really way out their question - Enforced Equity of Outcomes and White Ethnostate - are both simply cool kid terms for race based authoritarianism. Try as you might, neither of those is currently palatable to the American Citizenry.

And @corey-devos we gave the “cool kids” the keys to the country. The Wokeists promised to “bring us together”, to “save the planet”, to “stamp out injustice” and we are seeing how they operate. And yes, there is much misinformation but regardless the US already has well defined processes in place today for you to implement your utopian vision. It’s an Adaptive, Responsive, Liberal Democracy sort of “by the people, for the people”.

States each have all powers not specifically enumerated for the Federal government. Your state of residence (or mine) has amazing leeway to “make your vision happen”. Take the California or NY or Oregon or Washington or Illinois blueprints for Woke Hegemony and install in Colofornia and live a happy blissful life. Meanwhile Arizorida is taking a different path. You can then show the amazing benefits to humanity, just as California and NY are doing, then spread it from there. Transcend, then Include baby!

And if you feel the overwhelming need to make changes at the Federal level, go get the votes and Amended the Constitution, stack the Supreme Court, load up the Circuit and District courts, and viola’ you’ve made sustainable movement towards YOUR vision for America. You might also find some common ground with some Conservatives - Romney, Cheney and the other bi-partisan Jan 6th committee guy seem like great starts.

901

I think you are deceiving yourself about this, and you know this as well.
If they were just the fringe then there is absolutely no downside to just ignoring them.

The sad fact is that the vast majority of Americans are frankly morons and easily manipulated but the fringe.
The facts and data doesn’t support that these ideas are fringe anymore. If they were fringe, Donald Trump would never have been elected, much less control the Republican party almost absolutely.

It would be convenient for you if it was a fringe - you don’t want to face the reality of what is actually happening in the United States and around the world. That’s your choice to have blinders on or not - but understand that you are the ones with blinders on and ignoring basic facts and national events, and in the process making it easier for the situation to grow worse.

902

@raybennett
It’s a simple choice - Personal Agency Primary, Collectivism Secondary or Collectivism Primary, Personal Agency Secondary. We both know that neither party is “the perfect solution”, but choices do matter, elections do matter.

I know you’re not a black/white left/right kinda guy so might be best to answer.

Is the Leftist/Progressive administration, senate and congress doing a bang up job for Americans but suffering a “messaging issue”?
Why is it that once “winning all the marbles”, the Leftists/Progressives seemingly are facing weakening public support?

903

The issue is far greater than left and right in the USA. All these minor insignificant issues that the US seems obsessed with shows a complete ignorance about how the world really in fact actually is.
Frankly Americans from baby boomers onward are like sheltered spoiled children. I guess you all just don’t realize how completely Amber much of the world still is, and how willing some countries are to destroy the world as we know it in order to keep their own personal power, and by extension the power of their nation over the world.
I lived 10 years in a country that had been occupied by Russians (Soviet). If Americans are the spoiled, soft and rather stupid youngest brother - Russians are the hard, violent and abusive older brother.

And for me one key issue overshadows all the rest - a large portion of the Republican Party has sided with Russia against the United States. A large portion of the Republican Party would rather see America fail than be controlled by Democrats.
Your questions show a complete lack of common sense. You are basically asking: “Well, Putin or Trump would do these things - who don’t Democrats?”. “Trump wants to throw away 200 years of Democracy - why don’t the Democrats do that now?”
Your questions really are stupid. Honestly. You don’t realize you are already expecting an end to Democracy. The only question in your mind is will it be a Liberal or conservative dictatorship. You’ve accepted the premise of Dictatorship on a deep level that you can’t see any other alternative.
But you don’t really understand how completely shitty it is to actually live under a dictatorship. You don’t really understand. Just like you don’t understand this “unwinding” we are in will not be only in a few Democratic Cities, but Global.(see the 4th Turning - we are not even in the “crisis” stage yet) https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Turning-American-Prophecy-Rendezvous/dp/0767900464
In answer to this question:

That isn’t the choice before the United States. The real choice is: Dictatorship or Democracy. Choice or no choice. Respect for elections or discarding elections when they do not turn out right. Allowing Russia to force World events, or supporting countries who are literally being invaded for no legitimate reason.
Humanity is very much in pre-WW III scenario, and with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine the game is completely changed.