By the way - it’s hilarious what you throw out sometimes and it’s kind of mind boggling the imagery that flashes into your mind on these topics, lol.
But again - it shows more about what is in your head than actual reality hehehe.
Are you 12 years old? LOL
Are you angry?
Why deny it and accuse me of it.
We’ve been through this a dozen times.
You divert to ad hominin and I call you on it.
Why do you go there in the first place?
It would be funny if it were not so sad that men like you deny your anger day after day for their entire lives, constantly trying to divert deflect and blame other people as straw men.
Old, and yet it apparently wasn’t important enough to wrap a new revelation around, which might be why abortion was openly practiced in Christian societies for nearly 2000 years. Our current anti-abortion stances offered by today’s Christians have only been around for a handful of decades.
And I get it! Beliefs change over time, as do interpretations of our group’s code and founding documents. Which is why religious arguments are given less weight in political discussions, as I’m sure you agree they should.
I guess you missed the whole Joseph marrying pregnant Virgin Mary piece.
Good thing you can see the depths while peering intently at the surface. Or is that perhaps a reflection? 
Cool. Not sure how this turned religious, but I assume it’s my doing 
. I didn’t realize you had honored the parents concerns in Florida. Maybe we do agree after all?
Nah, it was me.
So easy to just use one word and people of an ethnocentric mindset circle the wagons and falls into unsustainable throught patterns. Though in this case it’s religion and not genetics defining the "ethno"centrism.
All I had to do was say was this:
If I had said “ancient” instead of “pre-Christian” it would be interesting to see how the discussion would have been different.
I ran across a random reference (??) that several “Pagan” religions in existence in early Christian times had/supported/recognized Transgenderism and Gender Fluidity.
The only one I caught was Manichean-ism since I had recently listened to the Confessions of St Augustine of Hippo (North African Berber), he was a Manichean prior to conversion. Much of his confessions are his partying ways pre-conversion.
Could it be St Augustine of Hippo was transexual or just homosexual? He was also married, so perhaps Bisexual as well. Hmmm…
“I ran across a random reference (??) that several “Pagan” religions in existence in early Christian times had/supported/recognized Transgenderism and Gender Fluidity.”
Yes, as well as several Native American cultures that apparently recognized “two spirit” people who had a transgender identity, a practice that I understand many natives are returning to in recent decades.
It’s really is a fascinating and difficult conversation, because our moral standards and various categories we use to make sense of our own sexual identities and drives has changed so much over the years. Ancient Rome, for example, had a very different way of thinking about human sexuality that doesn’t map onto contemporary sensibilities very well. And made all the more murky (especially by current moral standards) by the fact that “adolescence” as a category of childhood is a fairly recent emergence. But it seems very clear that what we currently describe as “homosexual”, “bisexual”, and “transgender” are all natural features of human diversification, and have been with us from the very beginning.
These proclivities are not “deviant”, they’re not “sinful”, they’re not wrong or harmful or shameful. They are natural features of the human animal. All the more reason NOT to keep it in the shadows, both personal and institutional.
Which is why I think it is critical that we teach our kids the fundamental values that allow them to express kindness and compassion to different types of people they will encounter in their lives. And it’s important to do so before these kids hit the conformist stage of personal and social development — a time when the majority of these 5% are figuring out who they are, and when everyone else their age are beginning to form their own us-vs-them cliques and social hierarchies.
And how do we do that? The same way we helped reduce bullying of blacks and even handicapped people in school — exposure and education. Expanding representation on shows like Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street, for example, made a huge impact on making entire generations more tolerant of people’s differences. This is simply the next step in that process. It’s the gift of green — it “sensitizes” the entire spiral and generates inclusive empathy for all these different kinds of kosmic address and expressions of the human spirit, before we take that momentous leap to teal and turquoise.
I think one of the legitimately interesting and important contributions postmodern historiography is making right now, is pointing out how many of our inherited interpretations of history were in fact handed down from more colonial modes of sense-making, and they often employed various kinds of “erasure” to their readings of history. Many depictions of various unmarried men and women in long-term close relationships with same-sex partners, but rarely described as “gay” – largely because of the prevailing religious attitudes at the time. Hell, I still remember my teachers tip-toeing around Shakespeare’s “fair youth” back when I was in school. So many of these hisoriographers are going back through the source material, and attempting to portray a more honest portrayal of these people. Which is a kindness, both to them and to future generations, I think.
Current stats in the U.S. per Gallup poll on LGBT population: (7.1%; 21% for Gen Z) : https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx
@FermentedAgave, et. al. If you haven’t read it, “Sex at Dawn” is a book that gives some pretty good pre-history of human sexuality. It’s a fun and witty book too.
Reading the 4 minute summary of Sex at Dawn gave me a chuckle because I feel it just barely scratches the surface and hints at much more forbidden kinks. Well, at least forbidden in modern times in polite discussion, lol. But just imagine for a moment the long houses of the north with about 30-50 people snowed in for months at a time as the wheat and barley went bad beyond edibility then fermented into drink. Every night there were surely 10 or more couples going at it in the same room, and there’s no reason to think Vikings were “keeping it down”, lol
But these kinds of things come out throughout history here and there even in relatively modern times. For example, in the memoirs of Jean Jaques Cassanova and other accounts of decidedly nonmonogamous European nobility. Ironically, its during periods of sexual repression when these things seem to boil hottest under the surface. Show me a sexually conservative society and I’ll show you a society with wild “underground” outlets.
I think this idea that we do not choose who we are attracted to is evolving. This is a part of why the percentage of population that identifies as LGBTQ is increasing and it’s also driving the fear within conservative communities and the feeling that there is a need to “crack down” on exposure to young children.
Again, I have a personal example. My daughter identifies as bi-sexual. To me it seems like her primate or primary instincts are towards heterosexuality. How she describes it is she is physically attracted to men an emotionally attracted to women. This became an issue with my family, who supports the idea that “sexual orientation is something we are born with”. They view her approach as wrong and being driven by the idea that it’s now cool to be LGBTQ. There was an incident last summer where my brother-in-law accused her of “faking it”.
My stance is “who gives a shit”. Really, I don’t care if she can evolve past primitive sexual responses. Relationships are so much more than sex. If cultural influences are allowing these kids to explore the relationship between sexual instincts and emotional connection…GOOD. If this means their creative flow will begin to show up in all sorts of new expressions…GOOD. When I was her age I had pregnant friends. I find the way they are exploring, which is a deep personal identity process, to be so much healthier for both them and society.
Again, I mean this as a serious inquiry…what is the fear here? I cannot think of a quality I find less important than gender when I consider the type of person I want my daughter to find relationship with. Maybe race. I just do not understand the fear driving this conservative hysteria. The fact that there is now a law that wants to punish teachers, (I still cant quite figure out the legal consequence) for bringing in a book that shows two moms just baffles me.
I also wonder what the extraordinary cost of this bill will be to taxpayers. I think we need to be transparent about that when we vote on things. I appreciate your views on governing process, but there is a significant cost to that process, financially and emotionally. It’s like option 1: sit down with your child’s teach and principal = $300. Option 2: Sue the district or press criminal charges (still confused) = $500,000…all offered to you by your friendly taxpayer, or maybe you just get to bankrupt a teacher.
I cannot think of a bigger waste of time and money…maybe war. If we could just channel all this energy into something productive…imagine the beautiful world we could be giving our children! I do think I am finally accepting this is a fantasy. Too many people are so broken and need to find ways to hurt people. I guess we are lucky in a way that our country wants to do this will laws more than guns and bombs, at least within the country. I think I am finally grieving the death of my liberal green dream of a peaceful loving world and the orange fantasy of a rational process towards its creation.
Developmental pain must be expressed if it cannot be processed and, at least in this moment, most are still projecting and not owning. I hear that all over this conversation. It would be interesting if these platforms could identify these moments of deep projection and offer a subtle body somatic release process. Maybe a pop-up for a 3-2-1 or a collective engagement could be quite transformative. Awkward, yes…but development always is 
PS. Maybe I’m misreading these cage match conversations. I am curious if they feel healthy and productive?
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Wisdom here. THANK YOU @Michelle - I’ve taken the liberty to rewrite Michelle 's paragraph on her daughter to just perhaps help with the mis-framings, the hyperbolic accusations, the root canals into “those peoples” inner quadrants, and frankly non-Transcendent Red altitude attacks.
My stance is “who gives a shit”. Really I do care if you or her or zim to zer can evolve past primitive sexual responses so each can choose their life powerfully, and I absolutely want to give my child and yours every opportunity to own their sexuality, emotional well being, self esteem, and identity development. I do CARE about you and your child, but I trust that you, just as 99% of all parents, do have your child’s best interest first and foremost in your heart and mind. No one spends more time near and with your child. No one knows them like you do. No one cares more than you do. NO ONE, least of all a government employee in a school with 400 kids or a teacher that claims to be crushed by their workload. Relationships are so much more than sex, so why do you have such a morbid obsession and demand to have the state be involved in my very young child’s sexuality? Culture by definition has nurtured kids to explore the relationship between sexual instincts and emotional connection, between pure egocentric desire and transcendence, or at least playing in these in-betweens…GOOD. If this means their creative flow will begin to show up in all sorts of new expressions, let’s have them explore these expressions…GOOD. At 8 years old I was exploring my own emotionality, my physicality, my intellectuality, my social community, AND very lastly my sexuality AT EIGHT YEARS OLD. I was learning how to live, love, play, fight, think, act, as an 8 year old, with everyone. With boys and with girls. I find the way children are exploring all of these areas, which is a deep personal identity process, to be so much healthier for both themselves and maybe society.
Apparently a lot people want to control this on both sides of the political isle. I love you’re willingness to share your expansive views in this discussion about your daughter.
I agree 1000% with this assessment … when we’re arguing the same point over and over again we’re not understanding the greater picture. There are a lot of one-sided - one-trick pony’s here thankfully we have them on both sides so those voyeuring in can at least see a bigger more complete picture.
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I think this is great, but again I think we are having our political biases come out as to the role of overstepping government control.
No one spends more time near and with your child. No one knows them like you do. No one cares more than you do. NO ONE, least of all a government employee in a school with 400 kids or a teacher that claims to be crushed by their workload. Relationships are so much more than sex, so why do you have such a morbid obsession and demand to have the state be involved in my very young child’s sexuality?
I would rewrite this to say. We, as parents cannot be around our children 100% of the time, nor would that be healthy. Schools are more than about learning to read and write, they are an interactive social learning experience. Why do conservative have such a morbid need to not only control at any cost, but to destroy lives by the vain and foolish attempt to legislate human interaction. Seriously, enough! If you have such little faith in your ability to parent your child and fear exposure to differing ideas, maybe put your energy into therapy and a parenting class and not into phycological torture of a teacher that claims to be crushed by their workload!
(i know that is a bit rough…but it’s intended for sport)
I agree 1000% with this assessment
For sure! I am learning a lot. It’s still better for me when it’s less aggressive, but I’m cooling to the aversion of the fight.
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Thank you @FermentedAgave and @Michelle for reframing and attempting to argue the opposite point of view.
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One thing that is very unique to the United Sates is this idea that children will somehow be “damaged” if they are exposed to sexual ideas or body parts when they are young. It’s so bizarre.
My daughter saw dozens of old penises when she was three years old when we went on vacation to Greece. No big deal. Young European boys see vaginas and boobies and have far more healthy views towards sex than Americans, by and large.
In countries like Japan it’s very similar with hot springs. Nobody cares if a 5 year old sees adults naked. They are not “scarred” by seeing daddy’s penis.
Similarly, children are not somehow harmed if they talk about sexual relationships. Mommy and Daddy had sex. That’s where babies come from. This is something a 3 year old might be curious about. Why did daddy leave us? Because he wanted to put his penis in another woman. Or another man. Telling a white lie about these things causes more psychological damage to a child than the truth. When a child does not know the real reason, they often internalize it that they are the reason, and THAT is abuse. Why didn’t little Bobby get good toys from Santa - because he was naughty and Santa has a list (not because they are too expensive).
A few years ago I had a niece who was heartbroken because she was in the mall with her son and his dad was with a new girlfriend and the father completely ignored his own son when he ran up to him. This caused a tremendous amount of grief and suffering and deep feelings of unworthiness in my nieces’ son. He cried all night and she didn’t know what to do. Even worse, the boy is disabled. Piece of shit dad, right?
I told her to just tell her son the truth. Daddy was doing something wrong and was ashamed about getting caught. What was the thing he was ashamed about? Putting his penis into another woman and leaving his wife and son. She was hesitant - because she is very religiously conservative and somehow thought that the son was too young to be exposed to “adult” topics. Well, after a week she thanked me. The boy learned that daddy was ashamed of his own actions, and that is why he tried to hide. He understood the actions daddy was ashamed of and that it had nothing to do with him or his disability.
Lastly, remember that the backdrop to this topic about not discussing sex with 8 year olds is in the context of most 8 year olds have seen pornography online already. They watch TV. They might even read the book of Genesis. They have hellah questions from all these things that shove sexual issues into their face. To not address it at all to me seems like abdicating parental responsibility.
LOL. Thanks for playing!
Out of optimism I thought worthy of looking at FL 1557 as a framing issue instead of cultural warfare issue, but perhaps it is simply cultural warfare after all. Or perhaps we’re already vehemently agreeing
Onward and upward with our Disinformation Topic. I respect Joel Kotkin’s work and analyses. Here is a seemingly well balanced piece in Newsweek.
Willing to share the “bigger more complete picture”? Inquiring minds would like to know