I have recently become aware that these parades are happening in many different cities this summer…
What are your integral thoughts?
I have recently become aware that these parades are happening in many different cities this summer…
What are your integral thoughts?
There is a constitutional right to organize in the USA with appropriate permits, etc. So you can have straight pride and white pride parades, but I probably won’t be attending any of these in my lifetime.
It’s said that imitation is the greatest form of flattery, but I don’t think the motive here is flattery. Still, as Ixvythrs says, they have the right, even if they might be in the wrong.
Im looking for intagrally informing answers here please Where the value of “everybody is right” is at the core. If you are saying that a group of human beings have it wrong then you are not integral. Saying something like "each stage is true and some stages are more true and inclusive than others " therefore, they have the right to be, feel and express themselves in anyway that they want and I see where they are comming from BUT their values are a little bit less evolved than ours. that would be more integral.
Oh, pardon me Kurt. You’re absolutely right. I was loose with my words there, could have stated my thought in better terms, more integrally. Thanks for correcting me! You stated it pretty well, though, for future readers of this topic.
Well, I’m going to attempt an “Integral” thought here…My apologies in advance if I’m getting it wrong (still learning!)…But I have always wondered how it is that our sexual orientation is a thing to take “pride” in. Gay or straight. It just is what it is, and of course no one should be ashamed of their truth/orientation…but pride?..I don’t get it. I welcome any feedback.
In the 1950s the traditional culture was leading the way: gender roles were a way of survival, religions were supporting of healthy gender roles Ect. Ect.Then, 1970s were leading the way: saying that we should love each person no matter what the sexual orientation and that seeing someone for who they are is more important than loving someone for how good the adhere to their gender roles… LGBTQ were disowned by the general public at that time, whoch is bad!! so yes, having pride, and pride parades was a great thing at that time to furthur our evolution. Now in 2019 similar values are still leading the way, but, we have a backlash of traditionalism that is saying: hey, your values for loving people for who they are, is great, probably, but we are feeling left out now and feel you have thrown the baby out with the bath water and have forgot that traditionalism is the backbone and what has built this world in order for you to have these rights in the first place… some of these 70s values are great but now political correctness has become overly dominating and restrictive similar to how tradtionalistic value were oppressive back in the 50s. Failure of the leading edge to be 100% inclusive (Paraphrasing from ken wilber - trump and a post truth world). So now it has come full circle where we need straight pride parades In order to celebrate traditional values because traditional values have become marginalized and casted aside. IN A VERY SIMILAR WAY (yet slightly more evolved) as the previous stage did. It has come full circle and the culture wars continue. So, What is a second tier approach to straight pride?
Everyone is right, but higher levels have more depth, not necessarily more span.
I think we have to be careful here. Ken always seems to bring up Nazis and Hitler when it comes to moral dilemmas because I think it illustrates the point of evil. You can still (and have to) make moral decisions and say some are more true than others. They are qualitative judgments.
In this example, everyone has the right to organize (span) but I am not sure I will be attending the straight pride parade (my judgment of depth) - but then again if it is down the street from me, there is alcohol involved with live music and beads, I most likely will be there. Don’t judge!
I also have noticed in our Discord sessions that many people can claim they’re Integralists but put a group together and I don’t think you will always find integral communication. So rather than attacking a person by calling someone wrong, I think we should be addressing the specifics of the argument.
I think it’s just the word “pride” that has always felt slightly “off” to me because I think of “pride” by this definition I just found by Googling:
1. a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.
Of course, I’ve always understood (or at least felt) that these parades were a way for LGBTQ people to express their self-acceptance.
As it happens, there was also this secondary definition:
2. confidence and self-respect as expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized, on the basis of their shared identity, culture, and experience.
I feel pretty certain this second definition must have came about as a result of gay pride parades.
The idea of straight pride parades feels a bit like a sarcastic response to me…and I don’t really see anything useful that could come from it. Looks like just one more way to polarize, as if we need any more of those. This, coming from a straight woman in a very gay friendly college town (can relate a little to feeling like the new “minority” at times), but marching in a straight pride parade doesn’t feel at all like a solution to me. Like Ixvythrs, I might attend “if it was down the street” …AND was motivated by fun rather than an expression of “feeling left out” (boo hoo) or “us vs. them”.
Hey! Here’s an idea! A gay pride parade that starts at one end of a town…a straight pride parade that starts on the other side of town, same day, same time,…both marching toward the center of town where they meet and march together down “Main St” as a "Strength in Diversity Parade (no more need for pride) down to the best bar in town (or park) for an awesome party!? Now THAT, I would gleefully go all the way to the end of town for!
I think, We all would like to see the LGBTQ join forces with a straight pride parade to make it a human pride parade and heal this big divide, bury the hatchet. that would be the integral thing to do. it may take some work for green. Green has a huge allergy to traditionalism mainly because it was born out a reaction to traditionalism, its time to see eye to eye with them. Even if they are toxic, triggering or even the shadow side of traditionalism. They are people who have values that are not being appreciated in the larger cultural context and are screaming to be included. I wanted to write a whole essay and unpack this topic but then I was reminded about Diane Hamiltons course called inclusion 2.0. Move Beyond Power, Politics, and Political Correctness and it had everything covered in it already. it may interest people so ill copy and paste here:
More and more we are seeing our biases exposed, around race, gender, age, and many other variables. We want everyone to have an equal opportunity to be seen and honored as they are. Those who historically have not had a voice are asking that their unique struggles be heard, and acknowledged.
And yet, as we move towards greater inclusivity we’re also seeing some unintended consequences, such as:
Oppressive rules around speech and “political correctness”. There can seem to be a hypersensitivity to language and behavior that can create a culture of fear.
Endless processes of blame and accusation that don’t seem to ever resolve.
A victim-oppressor framework that doesn’t allow any other narratives to come forth.
The inversion of power hierarchies instead of their transformation (with a new group of oppressors at the top instead of no oppressors there).
Devaluing of assertiveness and aggressiveness that can breed innovation, both inside a team and with competitors.
Creating a talent drain as some leave rather than speak out.
A monoculture that only values a narrow range of attitudes, politics, personality types, and communication styles.
The demonization of those with differing views .
A focus on internal politics and policies which draws too much attention away from action and movement forward
The good news is these unintended consequences can be understood and addressed.
Inclusivity dogma can be transformed into a greater organizational intelligence that offers a genuine respect for differences, without creating a whole new set of challenges that end up driving people apart again.
As humans, we have a great deal in common with each other at the same time that we have significant differences. We need to understand and honor both, so that we can continue to live in a rich culture with of a full tapestry of human beings.
These skills — of seeing our sameness and of honoring our differences — can be taught and cultivated in ways that are inclusive and aware of historical and existing patterns of oppression — but don’t flatten or pathologize differences.
I’m going to jump back in here with a few thoughts, and questions. For example, what exactly is it that straight/cis-gendered people feel “left out” of? It can’t be the Pride Parades because they are welcome to join in those parades in support of the LGBTQ community if they choose. It can’t be political rule, because straight people are the majority, by far, in this country. They are not left out of job or housing opportunities, as some LGBTQ are, and they are not left out of mainstream religions either. Nor are they left out of the larger cultural conversation in general. (That pretty much covers the four quadrants, integrally speaking).
If what they feel left out of is the far-left political conversation of the (unhealthy) green altitude on college campuses, online, and elsewhere–due to “politically correct” speech requirements, endless processes of blame and accusation, victim-oppressor frameworks and all the other things mentioned in Diane Hamilton’s article-- then yes, that’s a problem that creates other problems/challenges. I am not on a major college campus; I do not know first-hand what goes on there, only what I read and hear about, and yes, some of it is despicable. But I think it would serve everyone well to fully appreciate the history (and continuing presence to a degree) of discrimination against this community, discrimination that has caused life and limb for some of them, and social marginalization for the group as a whole. I think that calls not just for empathy from straight people who are capable of it, but also a little humility, as well as some sincere curiosity about that which is different from self. Perhaps there has been one or some, but I personally can’t recall any straight people being beaten, castrated, murdered, or sent to the gas chambers simply because of their straight sexual orientation.
Social marginalization includes more than denying jobs or housing, or such. It also includes shaming, in both overt and covert ways. And shame of course is the other side of pride, which is why some marginalized groups adopt the pride stance. Spiritual texts speak of the necessity of overcoming the opposites, transcending attachment to the dual qualities like pride and shame, praise and blame, loss and gain. But it is hard, for an individual or a group, to transcend the opposites if one knows only one side of these poles, if one knows little in themselves of the other side as well.
And if there are straight people who feel shame or shamed for being straight, then yes, let them have a parade if they wish, if this will help them. As I said in my first post, they have the legal right, even if they might be “in the wrong.” I did not speak with enough fullness or clarity about what I meant by that. I was talking about them maybe being in the wrong or deluding themselves as regards their motive for straight pride parades, because my sense is that much of the motive is related to feelings of powerlessness (and a resultant anger), not actual pride about being straight. So some of the straight pride parade phenomena (and some of the gay pride phenomena as well) seems a feeble or bastardized attempt to feel more powerful, gain power, not to gain pride.
On a related matter that I was just going to let go but have decided not to, I do think integralists are within the framework to call something or someone out as wrong. In my opinion,income inequality as we see it today is wrong, and so are the people and policies and laws responsible for promoting it. Racism is wrong. White supremacy is wrong. And the list goes on, but you get my point. Morality is all about what’s right and wrong, and one doesn’t forfeit their moral judgment through being an integralist.
(Thank you Ixvythrs for also speaking on this. And Kurt, I do still appreciate your attempt to “speak Integral” and have others do the same, even if I think you pegged me, and integral thinking to some extent, wrong.)
Thanks for your response and thanks for not labeling me an alt right supporert right off the bat. I defiently am not. lol. This post started because of a conversation with a friend who was very angry and hatefull toward the idea of a straight pride parade and the people associated with it. And I just see it as two value sets clashing. Just more culture wars. I don’t know all the clashing points. so I’m still trying to unpack it… and play the devil advocate a bit…
Yes you are right, LGBTQ have definetly had a very rough and troublesome stuggles and deserve everything they have been fighting for. Straights did not have the same troubles as they have. That is definetly where I am starting this discussion at. Not arguing that…straights have NOT had the same struggle as the LGBTQ but that does not mean they do not struggle too.
One example: The ‘boy crisis’ as I’ve seen discussed here, and is still relevant. Is probably one way that ‘straights’ feel marginalized a bit. Lack of healthy father figures and groups of men that support men is a problem. There are very few places that boys can learn those healthy values. Many military men are know to re-enlist based solely on having that need for brotherhood that is hard to find in the culture. Straight pride I see as a bit of a need in our culture for that brotherhood. That, has not beenseen as an important thing… loan wolf’s are usually the ones doing crime…ect. … honestly the straight pride is probably made up of many lonewolves who need a place to connect and build those bonds.
Another point is that Pride parades have kind of lost touch with its root is what I hear alot of talk about. Not all of it has but it is definetly a topic. Where people use it as an excuss to wear a rainbow speedo and nothing else. I know lots of families that no longer attend because it is no longer child friendly…come on… its gone a bit too far at times… (kind of like liberalism has) some use their freedom to the extent it triggers people and is really in your face. you can see how that triggers the other side… and is offensive to religions and straight values ect. ect. Gay pride gets a whole month, all of this stuff, it is kind off right up in straight people’s faces when they just want to go to the grocery store. not saying they don’t deserve it… and that freedom… but it possibly contains some micro aggression to the straight culture. ect. i could come up with more examples or how straights feel slightly marginalized these days.
And speaking of morality… violence or hate speech against anybody if 100% morally wrong. I’m not arguing that. We are aloud to call something out for that kind of stuff. I just dont want it to be our knee jerk first reaction when we are only having the discussion and ultimately trying to connect. Which it usually is a reactive…even in this thread it was. Getting others point of view, listening, connecting should be first. If it is only a discussion. Most actions are a result of people not being seen fully. So, that is how we heal the divide by not calling someones point of view wrong… because we THINK that we have the moral high ground…
moral judgments are made based on the value system and world view you have. if someone has a different set of values/worldview they make moral judgments differently. “everybody is right”. and… One is more right than the other because of altitude (green is higher than traditionalism) But if you dont include every value sets and worldviews from the lower stages and THEN make moral judgments… that is a pathology…you cant skip or not include a stage…if you do you are only using your high altitude in an evil way… “with great power comes great responsibility”… “the devils road is paved with good intentions” (or something like that).
maybe a better way for us to put it is… yes you can call out wrongs in the objective side of things… quite easily… racism is wrong. white supremacy is wrong. yes. Subjectivley tho, we want to meet people where they are and not have triggers when talking to someone subjectively. meeting them eye to eye. that what integral means to me mainly. is that subjectively we are all humans with trying to do what is right for us, no judgment. objectively tho, yes we step on eachothers toes and its ulgy and we are aloud to judge… i dunno
You ended your last post with “I dunno” but actually, I think you do know maybe more than you’re giving yourself credit for. I agree with many things that you have said, such as that these are value clashes, that we need to try to connect with those whose values are different than ours, that we are all human, etc. But I would still “push back” just a little on some of your points.
For instance, you mention the boy crisis, and that this is one way that ‘straights’ feel marginalized. What I would add to that is that gay and transgender boys are also a part of that boy crisis; it doesn’t just affect straight boys. And while I appreciate that the “lone wolves” who do crime (such as mass shootings) need, as you say, a place or way to connect and build bonds, I still can’t ignore the fact that gay boys also need to build bonds, and in many ways, have less opportunity for that than do straight boys. When you say military men are known to re-enlist in order to have a sense of brotherhood, I agree with you that this is a sad state of affairs. And yet, I also think of how gay/lesbian people have only recently even been allowed to serve in the military while being open about their sexual orientation. In the 90s, they were subject to a policy commonly known as “don’t ask, don’t tell,” which required they hide who they were if they wanted to serve.
You speak of traditionalism in an earlier post as “the backbone and what has built this world in order for you to have these rights in the first place…” I’m not sure how you’re defining ‘traditionalism.’ In Integral conversations, I usually take it to mean the amber-mythic structure-stage of development. Is this how you mean it?
If so, what I would point out is that that stage is pre-rational, and that it really was the succeeding stage, orange-rational, that brought the principles of freedom and individual rights to the fore. And when we speak of inclusivity, the pre-rational amber-mythic stage is generally described as ethnocentric, embracing a limited “us,” and excluding a lot of people. At the rational stage is where, integrally speaking, the world-centric view comes online, with its inclusion of “all of us.” So people at that amber-mythic level still have some developing to do, if they choose, to be more inclusive of ‘other.’ (As do the extreme greens of the far left political persuasion, who can drop into ethnocentrism themselves.)
I took a look at the website of SuperHappyFunAmerica which is organizing the Boston Straight Pride Parade in August. They say they want an S for Straight added to LGBTQ, for inclusion purposes. But there is so much mockery and scorn on that website, and tell-tale signs of the alt-right, that it clearly seems reactionary and antagonistic towards that community (and to the alt-left) so regardless of what they say, it does not look to me to be an attempt at unity or inclusion.
So as you say, just more culture wars, more identity politics.
And yes of course, traditional values still need to be accepted as being a part of the whole. And yes, some of the behavior in Pride Parades can be over-the-top. This is the 50th anniversary of Stonewall, the 1969 police raids on a gay bar and resultant riots that set in motion the gay rights marches the following year. Not all Pride events are the same; in some areas, there is less emphasis on the parade, more on educating the general public, interacting, and certainly this year, as most of the public still is unaware of Stonewall, which was a pivotal point in the gay/lesbian movement for equal rights.
Everyone is right, but there is also the need for horizontal development and calling out and cleaning up stage pathology. I think straight pride parades are not horizontally developed at best and pathological at worst.
I see this trend of wanting to include traditional pathologies while dismissing green altogether a lot lately. Green isn’t going to hold a straight pride parade with anything other than anger. That is green, not pathological green, it’s just green. There needs to be space for green as well as every other stage and as integralist we need to make sure we are including it too.
Not including green seems to be opening this space of not separating out healthy and unhealthy stage development. This makes sense since it’s what green gives us. The other thing that green is offering our world is horizontal push of other stages, which is critical as well
As integralist we need to begin to embrace that every stage has to co-develop. Green has to push against traditional values, not to undermine them, but to push them to horizontally develop. Green pushes amber to include the LGBTQ community in their idea of family or to include non-European peoples in their idea of a nation, etc. This is a very important piece of the integral puzzle.
Muscles develop only when you stress them, your friends anger is doing this, it’s providing the stress to develop the previous stages. My very traditional family now shares your friends anger at the anti LGBTQ groups. Yeah horizontal development!
What I hear you saying is, ‘green is all about being angry and calling out others for not being more inclusive. This anger is healthy because its greens job to make other stages be more inclusive by calling them out! We know when green has done a good job when it converts traditional stage people to be angry as well towards other people who are not as inclusive and aware of injustices ect. We need to pump up the “muscle” of other stages by “stressing them” out until they are more inclusive and like us!’
Every stage has to co develop by learning from eachother. So its our job to teach them about I justice, environmentalism, marginalisation. Culture wars is what develops the stages so as integralist we need to let them fight because that is how they develop horizontally.
I have to wonder if it’s as simple as addressing the balance, and cleaving some baby’s out of the bathwater. Unhealthy green can be straight up prejudicial against the majority when it’s unhealthy, lumping all straight people in to the dominator category or acting out victim power shadow where you seek to destroy the oppressors who then become victims. To remind people that straight does not mean homophobic, and that homosexual, gay, bi, trans etc does not mean righteous or the automatic moral high ground and immune from criticism.
Kurt broke it down pretty rigorously above I think
A victim-oppressor framework
The inversion of power hierarchies instead of their transformation
To me these two can create unwarranted shame when you go too far. No straight people have not faced the oppressions of other sexual orientations but imbalance is still imbalance, and when the pendulum swings too far there needs correction.
Thoroughly agree with:
“Every stage has to co develop by learning from eachother”
One of the underrated dangers I feel is when a stage attacks far too much the one prior, what starts as healthy anger, breakaway, almost teenage indviduation from the stage prior can descend in to throwing the baby out entirely and actually just regressing. Green needs to be celebrated when it’s healthy and thoroughly called out when not.And to be careful about that as integralists, as the stage we’re likely to get most peeved with is green.
Let’s have healthy creative culture wars, evolution is messy but when it’s too messy there’s great and unnesccesery suffering.
In response to LaWanna… I don’t necessarily feel intentionally “left out”…I’m not sure if my comment sounded that way…but I do sometimes start to feel a little isolated as a a straight person in a town with lots of gay people. I actually love 'em! … My perception thus far is that they are very very inclusive (maybe because they know what it is to be marginalized?)…friendly…even generally more “fun” than most straight people, it seems, and I guess the feeling of isolation comes partly from not being able to share a significant part their reality…and their inability to share a significant part of mine. This is not a “fault” on their or my part…It’s just a fact. I’m not really complaining…It’s not a huge issue…just “sharing”.
I think maybe a more significant cause of feeling a bit isolated is I feel I’m sooooo ready for “can’t we all just get along”…gay, straight, black, white, Muslim, Christian…Left, Right, you name the polarity…when we are apparently just not there yet. It’s something that I largely accept, but it ain’t always the most enjoyable thing.
I don’t feel “shame” as a straight person. If I did though, at this point in the game, I don’t believe I’d turn to “straight pride” parades for healing. This doesn’t mean I don’t understand the motivation behind gay pride parades. I sometimes think they were very much necessary for a certain period of time. Who knows…maybe from where I stand…where it “appears to me” that gays have made unbelievable progress toward true acceptance, etc…I’m left wondering at what point does the legitimate (in my view) victimhood stance get transformed into “survivor” and “thriver”.
I realize this may seem a bit “impatient” and unrealistic to think “now would be a good time” for someone who is gay and living in less accepting parts of the country. I feel similarly about racism…sexism…and every other “ism” you could name…While all have legitmate reasons for feeling victimized…I think I’ve just seen enough of what doesn’t ultimately solve problems…namely excessive emphasis on validation from outside oneself…and maybe not enough inward focus on finding and working on integrating ones inherent perfection (both may be necessary, but it seems the balance may be off)…that it saddens me. We are all losing in this type of game.
Yes, all of these “isms” are “wrong” …I’ve suffered my own personal victimization experiences…and it took me decades before it finally sank in that nothing will ever change the past…and continuing to expect it to…and continuing to perpetuate the distortions in my perception of the present that were brought on by own trauma, was costing me what remained of my precious life…And what was there to be gained in exchange? Nothing. I came to the conclusion that “speaking out” is often a necessary step…but to waste any more time than necessary in that space…just to get the job done…as well as it can be done… is ultimately unproductive and being stuck in the idea that “forcing” a change in the outer world, if that’s even possible (and sometimes it is), is anywhere near “enough” can hinder our own growth by keeping us hinged to the validation of the entire world…and, when you look at it that way, you realize that’s futile and you’re powerless.
Better to do what’s “possible” in the outer world, and then move inward, and find ways to allow in the acceptance and love that is often more available to us than we realize…work on our own distortions & triggers…and then eventually become an example of “how to grow, heal and thrive”
…and how to “ghost” the idiots who don’t get it! …lol (that’s my own shadow I’m temporarily indulging just for the fun of it :))) I don’t really advise this particular approach…however I do think there’s something significant to say for finding our inner strength and acceptance and protecting that with “good healthy boundaries”.
This, “one-two” punch, seems far more likely to produce the results that are in alignment with growth than the same old stale “one” punch…over and over and over again…
I hope I don’t sound like I’m preaching here…That’s not my intention. Started out clarifying my previous comments and got sucked into my own frustration over the whole “picture” of what we’re dealing with in the world today.
I don’t know if that’s exactly what I’m saying. I don’t think it’s so much about converting as developing our fundamental basis of how we want to be collectively human. Evolution is a creative process. There is tension in creativity. I’m not trying to wring out that tension as an integralist, I’m trying to use it more wisely.
I think what is really at the core of this question is are we comfortable making truth claims and then working though a process to make our collective culture align to these truths?
I know without question that marginalizing groups based on sexual orientation is not good for individuals, families or society. For me being integral isn’t about making that fact relative, that is actually green.
Does a straight pride parade marginalize? Of course one could have a parade without doing that, but that does not seem to be the spirit of these parades.
I know there is a lot of conversation about straight white men feeling isolated. That is an important issue. The misstep being made is to set the needs of SWM in opposition to LGBTQ or feminism or BLM. How could you express what you need without making it against marginalized communities? SWM need…what? I really am curious.
You don’t sound “preachy” to me; rather, quite thoughtful and sensitive. I too am (past) ready for a unity-in-diversity, or a “can’t we all just get along.” And I definitely believe attuning to interiors more is a step in the right direction for that to happen, not necessarily in a sequestered fashion (although that too), but in conjunction with change in the exteriors.
From what I’ve read and heard, there are people within the LGBTQ community itself who also question the point of continuing gay pride parades, people who say the parades are now more an excuse for a party fest rather than any statement about equal rights, civil rights, or pride. But there are also those who are politically astute within that group, who see what’s happening with regressive politics, where things once thought to be secured rights, such as Roe v Wade, are being undermined through state laws, so perhaps a right secured by even the Supreme Court is not all that “fixed” and certain groups, or individuals within those groups, still sense threat.
Public response to Mayor Pete’s presidential campaign, should it maintain its steam, should tell us something about how much positive change has and/or has not occurred regarding acceptance of gay men at least.
Thanks for a great share, lekawa.