The Conversation: What the Integral Movement Needs Next


Excellent question LaWanna. I’m not sure I predicted a GOP led “high probability collective nirvana”. If I did, that’s not what I think at all.

What I do think is that it’s only the Left that promises a carefree, all needs met, zero responsibility Nirvana. That’s oh so intoxicating for many, just as the promises of Marx, Lenin, Mao, Marcuse, and now Kendi, DiAngelo, et al. Coincidentally I just received an “award” of 2 free plane tickets and 3 nights hotel. I won’t be taking advantage of this “too good to be true” award as I’m “enjoyed” these before.

I’m basing my probabilities of various scenarios upon current political and general population awareness from what I know today. Maybe this changes before 2022, before 2024. Maybe I’m all wrong.

But I’m absolutely not basing any of these assessments on theories that “human society should mimic a global bee hive” (collectivism at all all costs) nor a solitary wasp (individualism at all costs).

Thanks for thinking of me LaWanna. I also think of you as I try to find a spirit focused drug-free Drum Circle here in AZ. I’ve got Harari’s book, but found it extremely historical and much prefer KW’s Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality or Theory of Everything.

Your Code of Hammurabi quote, at least for me, highlights the caste systems that have been prevalent for most of human history. Many nations today still have very clear caste systems. Codifying the legal system was way better than simply having the village chief, king’s court, or priest hand down perhaps arbitrary edicts.

I would characterize the Code of Hammurabi as a legal system - don’t steal, don’t assault, don’t kill - but bereft of the spiritual layer we have with Christianity. We’ve essentially bifurcated into “legal code” and “moral practices” here in the modern world. The beauty is we each get to choose our moral code.

Reality is you or I have some but limited ability to impact the upcoming elections. You might get Gosar out of office - that should be an easy one - but instead of focusing on government mandated societal changes, could we come together to help people break free of what I’m assuming is an implied caste system here in the US? For what it’s worth, I grew up in a likely a 3 1/2 shekal family LOL.
Could we collaborate on education, economic development, or is government fiat the best way?
Would it be acceptable to steer capable kids into the hardest field that they can succeed in, which might be a vocational or trade school or apprenticeship program or simply going to work?
What if our schools taught classic academics instead of social activism? The countries that teach the classics are kicking our ass as Corey points out.
Could we hold universities accountable for promoting education tracks that lead to careers they could have started out of high school?

What can we work on together LaWanna?


I’m sorry. That was NOT my question. I DO NOT recommend you leave the best country in the world in which to live :slight_smile:

The US has 40M people residing here that were born in other nations. 2M committed Federal crimes to enter the US last year. They have all made the decision to move for real world reasons. I too have seriously considered moving to several different countries having spent a fair amount of time in them, but when it’s all weighted out, I’m living here in the US for real world reasons.

You could run Integral Life from anywhere in the world. What I’m asking is if you didn’t have specific ties to the US (family, etc) WHERE is that overall best country in the world where you would want to move your family?

And perhaps 2 recommendations - one major nation/economy (100M+) and one of any size.



[quote=“FermentedAgave, post:61, topic:22010”]
I’m not sure I predicted a GOP led “high probability collective nirvana

Nor has Integral Theory predicted a “futuristic collective nirvana,” but these are words that you have used more than a few times about IT. My point was that you criticize IT for being predictive, and yet you yourself offer predictions–is that not self-contradictory?

IT does a similar thing, uses highly respectable data and knowledge known today, as evidence of an Integral consciousness/stage already being “on the map,” currently present in the world, and poses the scenario that it indeed may actualize in the world as the next stage of human/cultural development. Most recently, KW has said that various developmental tests/research suggest Integral consciousness is now at about 5-7% of the population in the West, and based on past emergent stages, the ‘tipping point’ for spread throughout culture seems to be around 10%. Whether that indeed happens or not, who knows? But I believe Wilber to be at least a little more learned than I about such things, and trust he is speaking and acting in good faith. Do you?

Along with your criticism of IT, this has been one of your main talking points since I’ve known you here. You insult your own intelligence, Fermented Agave, in my opinion, by continuing to try to rabble-rouse around the fiction that the Left is after a “zero responsibility Nirvana” and that all leftists are Marxists, Maoists, etc.

I have 5 people on a list requesting one of my “spirit focused drug-free Drum Circles.” If and when it gets to 10, maybe I’ll let you know :slightly_smiling_face: Actually, my work is primarily focused on individuals at this time, and probably for the foreseeable future.

I’m only about halfway through Harari’s book. What I really like is how vividly he paints pictures of other times in civilization, and I like his humor. I still laugh when I think of his (non-judgemental) line about clerks and accountants: “they think like filing cabinets.” Humor is so important, to me anyway. I still remember a line from one of Wilber’s books, paraphrasing: “everyone knows that not all men are rapists, they’re horse thieves.” Cracks me up! (Of course, context is important to fully appreciate both of these examples of funniness.)

I don’t know…the latest redistricting maps in AZ from all reports are once again skewed to favor Republicans, so we’ll see.

For what it’s worth, me too.

I’m sure we probably could, and would probably agree on more than you think. But before we start changing the larger world, maybe we could work together on making this smaller world of Integral Life Community a bit more civilized and productive, creative and inviting to others not participating. One way that I see that we could do that is by addressing to what degree we’re adhering to a (secular) moral code here at this site. One of KW’s definitions of morality that has stuck with me is: “the rules of how we play the game of “we” fairly.” While you may have your own religious morality that you adhere to, do you think you are giving your best shot at playing the game of “we” fairly here? I know, “life is not fair,” but individuals can be, or try to be, and life is certainly rooted in relationship, don’t you think? Some of your posts have a keen sense of fairness and relationality in them, including much of this most recent one addressed to me, but many do not. Sure would like to see some progress there.

Do you see ways that we could all work together better here at this site?


It was though. You said “I ask seriously - why haven’t you emigrated to one of the multitude of “better” countries?”

Your question is based on the assumption that, if I think America still has some improvements to make, I would therefore desire to move somewhere “better”. This assumption is made clear by asking “why haven’t you”, rather than asking “have you ever ever wanted to?”

And I explained that my patriotism is one that allows me to see where we need improvement, and therefore makes me want to use my sphere of influence to improve conditions for citizens of this country. This doesn’t mean I prefer to be somewhere else, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t worse places in the world, it doesn’t mean that we haven’t seen a ton of incremental improvements to our society and culture over the generations (again, thanks progressives!). What it does mean is that I think we still have a ways to go, and that the inertias from the past are still creating suffering for people despite the incremental progress that we have made.

" You could run Integral Life from anywhere in the world. What I’m asking is if you didn’t have specific ties to the US (family, etc) WHERE is that overall best country in the world where you would want to move your family?

Right here. This is my country, my culture, my idiom. And it is the place where integral has found the most traction (which isn’t to say this is not a global movement, it absolutely is). So I’d prefer to stay here, within my own preferred culture, and help make things better for everybody. Because I continue to believe that if we improve conditions for the average American citizen by dismantling the transnational corporate control over our governing institutions, then we will have a much better shot improving conditions for the average global citizen.

Otherwise, like I said, I think Iceland would be a pretty neat place to live.


I criticize IT for predicting an elite designed “for the greater good” collectivism as a “higher level for humanity”. You’re actually the only person who’s responded to question of how IT has gone from “mapping” to “definition of elite led collectivist noosphere”. I respect that.

My scenario probabilities are not based upon theories I want to see nor have postulated myself. You could easily refute the political momentum shift that myself and many others see coming. And heck, we’ll have to have the elections, right?

Is the DNC as the only “conveyor belt to Integral levels” or is it possible to grab opportunities that would create parallel “conveyor belts to integral levels”?
I don’t think anyone would argue that the DNC is under severe influence by some very radical Far Left ideologues.

Just ramp up the harvesting and mail-in ballot printing and Gosar is a goner :wink: Why not take notes on Sinema’s drift to the political center which more accurately represents Arizona. Depending on opponent quality, I might vote for her reelection.

You want to increase IL membership? I’d recommend IL meditate on what “Include and Transform” might look like. But that’s my thinking - what do you think LaWanna?

P.S. Let me know on the drumming if you like.


Why would I consider moving? I LOVE spending time and getting to experience cultures and peoples, not to different than Ray’s every 5 year recommendation. I’ve been on a 10 year cycle here and oddly enough 10 years is coming up… Hmmm :slight_smile:

Also key is quality of life. Buy a small country cottage with hobby farm close to a major metro w/ airport and enmesh into a new culture. Proximity to other cultures is also key as we love to travel. Portugal or Spain fit most of the criteria, maybe Cyprus, Malta or Sicily. It would also get us a bit closer to my wife’s family. Asia would take us too far from her family.

I will say that the reason I didn’t move early in life is simply economic opportunity. In Europe or Asia, I would have made 2/3’s the salary with a 50% higher cost of living. Whilst a 3.5 shekal kid, the US offered by far the best economic opportunities.

Iceland would be cool, but don’t know if those 70,000 vikings take many immigrants :slight_smile:
Any major nations/economies (say +100M) that get it more right than the US?


The analogy I would make with “Why don’t you move?” is this: you buy a house and live in it for 20 years then suddenly your neighbor lets his dog crap in your yard. When you complain to him, he says “you can always move.” You talk to other neighbors and about 10% also let their dogs crap in their neighbors yards and have the attitude that if you don’t like it, you can move.

Let’s be clear here: the current form of Republicanism IS NOT what any American who fought in WWII would support. In other words, it is not American Conservativism as we knew it before 2001. It’s not even Neoconservatism of 1992-2009. 2009 marks the year when Republicanism changed from being “for” something (like values and morality) to being “against anything” (like Obama). Any concept of fiscal responsibility, morality or national security for Republicans is now secondary to being “against anything” the Democratic party or Liberal organizations present.

Here are two memes that somewhat reflect my views on where the United States has gone wrong, and why I see it as neither the best option for me personally nor the best option for the planet.
I live in the USA and have a USA passport, but I also keep my options open. But I’m surely 100% NOT going to fall into the idiotic logic of people who say “love it or leave it”.

To be brutally frank: America has gone in a direction where it is no longer even remotely fit for world leadership. It’s like an old man who has lost all sense of who he was and given up on all his core values, but still wants to control the lives of his adult children (who are doing better without him).


In 1996 I was hanging out with a group of teachers in South Korea and I asked a guy who I believed to of Latino origin “Where are you from?”.
It’s strange that his answer has stuck with me for over two decades “I’m a citizen of the world, man.”

I believe this is one of the major hurdles to “waking up”. There’s no getting around it. Especially in the Christian tradition, but also in almost every other spiritual tradition. “God” in whatever way you envision Him, Her or It - does not recognize your passport as anything of value.
From there it’s a simple matter to ask the question “What profit it a man if he gain the world but lose his soul?”

Is strong national identity a hinderance to a greater spirituality? I would say, yes. Just look at the scriptures of whatever spiritual tradition. OK, except Zionism. Their scriptures say God loves them more.

I think this ties in with “What the Integral Movement Needs Next” - Is the Integral movement “Showing Up” with regards to “Waking Up”?

It’s profound to me that a casual meeting with a stranger 20 years ago over a few bottles of Korean Cheongju was the container for such wisdom.


Conservatives recognize that they’ve “wimped out” without providing clear vision for the populace and voters. They’ve also conceded for decades take-over of our institutions - academy, media, administrative state - by the Left, which has left us where we are today.
Just as what “Conservative” means, so to has “Left” changed over the years. Today’s Left is anything but Liberal. With the promotion of Cancelling anyone that resists, using government funding for anti-Religious/anti-Christian activities or promotion of racist policies of DEI/CRT, the Left has become drunk with power and is clearly the most Illiberal group we’ve seen since KKK lynchings or the genocide of Native Americans.

The “Right” or Conservatives are retooling to counter the Left’s socialist agenda of “Free Nirvana for All” (except the working class). The population “gets it” that they stakes are “existential level” in the culture wars. Here’s a heady intellectual take on what conservatives should be doing Future of Conservatism w/ Scruton and Murray (linked).
Is there any overlap, any synergy with Integral Theory here? Or would it be considered regressive on the Integral Hierarchy?

It is great being a “Citizen of the World”, “Citizen of the US” and “Good Neighbor” locally. The “Think Globally, Act Locally” slogan comes. For those not caught in the undertow of existential angst see no conflicts in being a good neighbor, good national citizen and a good global citizen.

It’s not a “love it or leave it” question, but a question of “What nation/society/culture is the most overall integral in the world?” It’s a nice intellectual exercise to do academic mash-ups - education system of Singapore, healthcare system of Norway, vacations of France, outdoorsiness of NZ, economic opportunities of US. But does that “example” actually exist? What nations actually have the best “package deal”? And are there any major nations (say >50M?, >100M?, >200M??) that are great “package deals” that we should be emulating?
Continually taking this to a “how dare you say love it or leave it” is not only inaccurate, but is seemingly a tactic to avoid answering the question of “What nation/society/culture is overall the most integral in the world today?”

Folks might find some the following interesting:
"The Kids Aren’t Alright" - Dr. Frank Furedi founded the Revolutionary Communist Party (Leninist school) takes a psychological look at impact of current policies on the mental health and development of children. Very deep and packed discussion that might be an articulation of “Conservatives” concerns.
Key concepts: Moral Engineering, Critical Race Theory, Gender Dysphoria, Identity Crisis - identity developed thru achievements, actions in the world. “Scientism”. Sidelining Morality. Class Divides. Medicalization of normal experiences. Crusade against the past. Safety as a moral norm. Legislating away problems.


Definitely NOT, NOT NOT the United States.

The United States is ALSO a terrible neighbor. The United States has a history of having terrible policies and using military force and intimidation to push bad policies onto it’s neighbors - for example, instead of having a sane policy on drug use and rehabilitation, we had the war on drugs that spend trillions of dollars to save Americans from “reefer madness” and “The Devils Weed”.

The Best “package deal” in 2022 is the European Union if your vision of quality of life involves people, community, and so on. They also have technology, but that isn’t the focus.
If your vision of a good quality of life is having “stuff” like buckets of marshmellow cream, all you can eat slop for $9.99, and enjoy shit beer like bud, coors, and so on - then the United States is your best option. But I would argue that this leads to a very non-integral lifestyle where you go from one climate controlled isolation chamber (house) to another (car) to another (office) to another (restaurant) and many Americans spend days, weeks or months never interacting with nature or other people, and it’s epidemic in the US that few people interact with others in a genuine way. One example is pub culture in Europe, where you go and just hang out with anyone - while American clubs are all about the pickup and showing off how much you can pay for a bottle of shit $10 champagne (except for niche bars like Jazz bars)

European cities are built for people while American cities are built for cars and industry. Similarly, the US Government passes laws that prioritize industry, while the EU again prioritizes people. No, more money =/= better life. Bigger =/= better. The United States at it’s foundation is built on a terrible foundation - unless you just want to sit in an air conditioned room and count the money in your bank account.

And, by the way - communism finds a balance with capitalism in the EU as well.

Is the EU perfect? of course not - but if we are talking about an Integral Society I’d give the EU a score of maybe 10/100 and the Untied States is going in a negative direction.

So why am I in the United States? Well, I only “kind of” am in the United States. The Southern tip of the Big Island of Hawaii is an entirely different culture from the rest of the World, and the Volcano Goddess Pele keeps out mega developers because what sane company is going to put billions of dollars of investment in the path of an active volcano that molten lava is actually flowing out of? For those who believe in things like the Bermuda triangle and so on - we live just south of one of the “vile vortexes”. There is something about the energy of Hilo - a kind of humming or vibration. I feel it every time I get off the plane. And yeah, some people go a bit whacko, lol. I think if a city of 1 million ever did grow here the energies of the place would rip it to shreds. It’s a haven for the last remaining Luddites.

This is an interesting statement, because the US is neither a good neighbor nor a good global citizen, and your average American is neither as well. It’s not that there is any inherent conflict of the three - that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that Americans, specifically are neither good neighbors nor good global citizens. The Average American believes they are somehow inherently better than the rest of the world, and you have this attitude as well based on zero real actual facts. The Average American views the world as a pool of natural resources to pillage and slave labor to exploit - and you yourself express this perception when you talk about how great it is to have a maid. It’s a perspective I can’t even fathom. I have a partially handicapped single mother housemate who I assist and that has helped me understand the value of service to others without receiving quid pro quo. The idea of being so lazy or so pompous or entitled that I hire a maid to take care of me it just strange and again to be frank - hinders spiritual growth, as does all the varied superfluous nonsense upon which the average American lifestyle is based.

It’s not “existential angst”, lol. It’s like I’m looking at a bunch of monkeys hoarding bananas and doing other primitive primate behavior. Just instead of bananas it’s automobiles and marshmellow cream sold by the bucket. What you see as existential angst is really your own perspective. I just want as little part of primitive primate behavior as possible and I guess this seems crazy to a primate with a primitive mind that thinks hoarding bananas is the height of enlightenment.


Apologies. I was referring to recently widowed Barbara and John&Laura on the other side as well as the gentle people in our little non gated non hoa neighborhood. We fund raise and collect donations together. We watch out for each other. We bbq together, light Christmas luminaries, and Easter egg hunt for the kids. We have a spooky Halloween parade and pumpkin contest.
And to my knowledge we don’t know each other’s religions or political parties or issues.

But using your definition, what should we do differently with our neighbors Mexico and Canada?

You seem to have a very negative perspective.



Maybe chanting “build a wall and make Mexico pay for it”, separating children from their parents as punishment, rape of illegal immigrants, putting them in concentration camps, and all the rest might be the reasons in the last 6 years. Then there is 200 years of such history, lol.

Oh, but let’s not be negative …
For starters, here’s a list of US invasions of our neighbors, lol.
Here are interventions:

Here is CIA covert action:

You are exactly showing my point by being completely ignorant of US atrocities and complete unwillingness to recognize gross injustices that occurred. You are a prime example of what the problem is.

It’s not “being negative” to recognize when you have wronged a neighbor, at the very very least recognize it and stop doing it. Also - do you recognize that you are not inherently superior to your Latin American neighbors, just because you have a US passport?

Here’s something about Canadians:


Focused on the current Republican party controlled by Donald Trump:


Who are they? Are they entitled to more concern than any other mass of human beings?

WAIT these two guys are BRITISH are you telling me that what American Conservatives should be doing is listen to two Europeans? The best and brightest of American Conservativism aren’t even American? lmao.
Douglas Murray’s positions are essentially anti-Immigrant (for England, he doesn’t care what the US does) and anti-Islam.
Roger Scruton is pro Monarchy (I don’t know how that fits in with the USA), anti-totalitarianism, (straw man), and anti-gay (why does this always come up, lol). Ironically while he is ani-gay, he also claims to be against identity politics (do you see the schizophrenia there).


@raybennett You paint with a very dark broad brush. I make one post with Scruton and Murray, you then run wrote likely subconcious Critical Theory on them. “They’re British, so NOTHING they say has value.” Did you also notice Scruton’s hairy leg is showing and Murray has a small lisp. Now those should be dis-qualifiers.

Come on Ray - have “atrocities” occurred under the US flag? Yes, no one discounts that. Has the US “conveyor belted” more global poor out of poverty than any other nation on the planet?

And whilst you cling to the fantastical noosphere of global kumbaya, you NEVER compare to the alternative if the US had not acted.
So will you squeal when the US “invades” Mexico and “murders” Cartel members that currently control 25% of Mexico? Of course you will. Will you compare to the alternative of letting the Cartel’s run rampant being fueled by corruption, horrific drugs, child prostitution, and human trafficking?
Half the nation, and a growing number of Latinos, are disgusted by the current administration’s fueling of the Cartels. Mexican produced Fentanyl from Chinese components is flooding into the US AND destroying Mexico. Cartel Coyote’s currently make $4K to $40K per facilitation of illegal crossing. Given the current administrations policies this equates to between $8B to $80B of CASH into the Cartels “investment” portfolios. This does not include the known 400,000 get-aways “get-aways” and increased drug revenues in just the last year. The Wall would stop this which would help both the US and Mexico.

@raybennett How do you explain away the Latino’s exiting the “Left” and joining the “Right”. Are they all deluded victims of White Privilege? Of just people of all walks of life that don’t see a need to recreate the horrific living conditions in their ancestral homelands of Haiti, Venezuela, Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, Bolivia, Cuba, et al?
Do you blame the US for the horrific societal issues all the aforementioned countries? Should we include Africa, Middle East, Central Asia, Southeast Asia? It’s all the US’s fault?

Your world view is completely predicated on Critical Theory - you find something to needle at, then discount everything of any good, truth or beauty. It’s a decidedly bleak outlook on life.


You have a twisted world view Ray. But I still laughed at your monkey’s and bananas analogy :slight_smile:


Straw man and also your typical misrepresentation of what was actually said. In other words, you are a liar. You literally put quotes around something and then entered something I did not say, and you also put ALL CAPS on what I did not say.

Then your projection of the American Kumbaya onto me, when in fact you are the one who sees America as Kumbaya land. How can I live in a fantastical noosphere global kumbaya and also “feed the people existential negativity”.

You can’t even keep your own argument straight in your head. Am I feeding existential negativity or do I live in a fantastical kumbaya nosphere?

Get your story straight, or I really can’t respect your words for more than a sack of smelly dogshit.

You get really butthurt when faced with FACTS and real history. I can see it in your writings.

Oh, boo-hoo. I don’t pat the USA on the shoulder and say “there. there - you are a special little boy even if you are a homicidal maniac”.

Why do we even HAVE drug cartels? That’s my point. It’s a result of bad Republican policy going back to Nixon wanting a way to imprison blacks and hippies. Without our nonsensical drug policy, there would not be any drug cartels to “murder” (or their families, or their surrounding communities full of "collateral damage). So the USA has a fucked up policy created and supported by Republicans, and this creates problems in other countries, so we go in with bombers and bomb the shit out of them - and you expect us to just ignore all the dumbfuckery and say “yeah, the USA is the greatest nation in the world”.

Will you be willing to compare countries where drugs are decriminalized? Of course not, because you are absolutely unwilling to see the benefits of anything progressive anywhere in the entire universe in the entire history of the universe. But oh, yeah - let’s look at all the drug cartels on the border of The Netherlands or Portugal.

Well, if I’m presented with bullshit that the USA is the best place in the world in all space and all time and you are not ever willing to present one negative thing about Republicans or the USA and never willing to admit anything ever good about progressivism - yeah - piss off with your fragility and your hypocritical double standard. When Luwanna literally asks you to show some kind of rational and compromising position and you refuse several times, then you want other people to pat you on your back and treat you with kid gloves? nahh … you reap what you sow with me, lol.

If you were willing to ever meet in the middle and say god things about progressive / Green tier, then yeah we can have a completely different discussion. But you absolutely refuse to give one inch on your fanaticism or to find one example of positive results of progressivism.

The problem is you are so completely fragile that you cannot accept any criticism of the United States, and that fragility is because way deep, deep deep down, you know how accurate I am. Only people who are insecure in their position are afraid to meet a compromise position.

Here - I was reading this today.
You see how progressive admit when they are wrong, and then start to make amends? THAT is strength of character. I respect THAT. Trump Conservatives and people like you who dogmatically support absolutely everything presented by your side and dogmatically stand firm thateverything wrong is the other side’s fault - you are just living in fear of facing your own inconsistencies, inadequacies, fears and insecurities - pffft.

I don’t know him personally - but if you want to know who I socialize with, it’s people like this.

The rest of the debate is off topic and just feeds your need to distract and redirect.


I thought that was China, actually. Or maybe that was just the greatest number of people within their borders within a short time frame. But bringing almost three quarters of a billion people out of poverty in just 18 years is a hell of a feat.

"In 2000, roughly 3 per cent of the country’s population was classified as middle class. By 2018, more than half of China’s population – 707 million people – had entered the country’s middle-income bracket, according to calculations from the Centre for Strategic and International Studies that defined the middle class as those spending between US$10 and US$50 a day.

As China’s middle class has expanded, it has in many ways also started to look like America’s.

In its most recent middle-class analysis, the Pew Research Centre in 2016 classified 52 per cent of the US population as middle class.


If you look at 30 years it’s even more amazing. The first time I considered teaching in China (I never did) in the early 1990’s it was still mostly poor and rural.
Note I don’t think this is “success” - but yes you are right - if I wear the lens of looking at everything from a consumer capitalist point of view, China has far surpassed the success of the United States in a much shorter time frame and with three times the population.


To be fair to Brother Tequila, he did admit that he thinks the progressive victories that gave us women’s suffrage, civil rights in the 60s, and gay marriage in the 00’s were all positive things. But I fear he underestimates the conservative (regressive) appetite out there to roll many of those victories back.


What is going to be rolled back?