The Conversation: What the Integral Movement Needs Next


#81

How was the CCP able to accomplish this? They did this all on their own?


#82

My God man. I posted earlier today a glowing recommendation for a brilliant card carrying Communist. You keep spewing ad hominem attacks like confetti at a NYE parade. Youre an ad hominem trigger just waiting to Trumpity this, Hrumphity durumpity Trumpity that.

Your world view is very dark Mr Bennett.


#83

Here we go, two birds one stone:


#84

I mean, just as “on their own” as America did, yeah? The glory days of America’s middle class were largely thanks to Keynesian/New Deal economics and unionization internally, and the massive manufacturing/economic vacuum externally that was left in the wake of WWII. And then Reagan/Thatcher brought in the new neoliberal supply-side paradigm after the Keynesian paradigm hit the rocks, which, despite helping to temporarily respark the global economy, then created the massive wealth inequalities, transnational oligarchies, and concentrations of power that we are struggling with today, and are actively preventing the emergence of the next major economic paradigm while hastening our descent toward climate catastrophe.


#85

I agree roll back of Abortion on a State by State basis is highly likely. Don’t worry, Blues will be able to Abort at will. Might trigger a Red flight to Blue States.

I haven’t heard of any discussion of rolling back gay rights previously so assume it’s a Texas thang. Just as I can find a Fascist in the wood pile that wants to codify teaching children how to take it in the arse or play dress up, that’s not mainstream is it?

I do think the roll backs will likely include:

  • reinstantiate removal of all racist laws - bye bye CRT, Woke
  • clear deliniation of State and Federal roles specifically regarding Elections, Mandates, etc. This would be a roll back of Dems attempt to Federalize State’s responsibilities
  • Enforcement of Border security and Immigration processes

Of course I assume Biden or whom ever takes his place in 2023 will Veto all of this legislation at the Federal level so fully expect Red states to sue DNC power grab Iat the the Supreme Court, just as the CCP Vaccine Mandates are being heard right now.

Blue Mayor’s and their Administration’s will be sued and impeached for dereliction of duty at a minimum and collusion to harm the public. Attorney Generals will be sued and charged similarly.

Will pre-Woke/Cancel Culture/CRT civil rights be rolled back? No. If anything they will be reaffirmed.

Basically yes there will be simple roll backs to “rule of law”. This is why it’s important to not “make up your own bullshit” but to follow and enforce the laws passed. If they need to be changed, simply rewrite and pass the new versions.

Key to all this is we currently still live in a Democracy with Rule by Consent. It’s that age old “by the people, for the people” that the self proclaimed Moral Architects despise so.

You might call it an Integral Populist movement across all Identity groups to stop the devisive arbitrary insurrection against basic rule of law.

I see it as a HIGHLY Integral shift that will lead to better lives for all Americans and hence support better lives for all humanity.


#86

So you are saying a fascist is responsible for the Texas anti-abortion bill? Because it’s the same guy who is trying to use the same framework to abolish gay marriage.

Tell me, which racist laws have wokists created that will be rolled back?

“You might call it an Integral Populist movement ”

Why would I do that, when the GOP social holon has a center of gravity at red/amber? Just because you like it, don’t make it “integral”.

“wants to codify teaching children how to take it in the arse or play dress up”

Jesus Christ dude. And you call this “integral”?


#87

I think we’re in quite a lot of agreement here. Both the Right and Left hollowed out the middle class under the auspices of Globalization (Green altitude).
A Democratic trifecta passed Most Favored Nation status for China in 1979, but this was definitely a bipartisan trend. Just as NAFTA under the Republicans in 1993.
Motivations expressed to the populace were Humanitarian - increased egalitarianism and Western standards. We intended to lift up the China and Mexico (specifically) through open trade. Both Mexico and China seeing increased egalitarianism was one of the stated intents, at the time, for opening up the US markets. To claim that AT THE TIME lifting Chinese and Mexicans out of poverty, increasing egalitarianism, was NOT an intention is at a minimum inaccurate and disingenuous at worst. Americans of all walks of life were having Green thoughts (long before Ken got to work). And yes, business people were looking at how they could get into the Chinese or Mexican markets, as well as utilize both for production for the US markets.

The concern at the time was the hollowing out of the US industrial base, which it has. Mexico’s impact on our own agriculture has impacted profitability to the point that megacorp farming is the norm. Family farms have essentially be completely pushed out.

Same with Chinese manufacturing. Gone are almost all the small companies that made snow shovels in Iowa, BBQ’s in Texas, fine footwear in Boston, high fashion in San Francisco, or even movies in LA.

So should we consider it xenophobic to rewrite our trade agreements periodically? Anyone that would say this is speaking out of political motivations - think of it as “power play” motivations. The world is not static, game theory is always in play on all sides.

So here we are. The US opened it’s markets, shared it’s production practices, shared it’s technologies, enjoyed the fruits of the relationships, and has suffered the results of the relationships. Maybe it’s time to rewrite our trade agreements after viewing their impacts over 30-40 years. Seems not unreasonable.


#88

Come on Corey. I was trying to use humor to lighten things up. LOL

Thanks for stating it clearly @corey-devos - “GOP social holon has a center of gravity at red/amber.” What “center of gravity” do you see the Democratic party at?

Proposals are, well, proposed (Texas abortion bill, late term abortions) and our Liberal Democracy rules on them through our Democratic elections. Our courts will rule on the alignment with our Constitutional legal system. If the Citizenry thinks it’s “good”, then might reelect the legislators who passed the concepts. We do have a “government by consent” after all.

What center of gravity would you consider is killing unborn fetus, babies, humans? Would that be Teal, Green, Ultraviolet, Red, Amber?


#89

Just for the record, supply side neoliberalism and the global markets it created is not “green”, it’s orange. Green doesn’t mean “global” — after all, Orange is also a worldcentric altitude, but sees the world in terms of markets, winners, and losers (“mean orange meme” representing the sort of extractive capitalism we’ve been discussing), while a green-altitude economy would likely be built on principles of sustainability (in terms of intention anyway) but would likely get caught up in all sorts of “equality vs. equity” contradictions.

“ What center of gravity would you consider is killing unborn fetus, babies, humans? Would that be Teal, Green, Ultraviolet, Red, Amber?”

Well, let’s see:

Red doesn’t give a damn what anyone says, no one can tell them what to do.

Amber’s judgment will be based entirely on metaphysics, belief, and black-and-white moral reasoning, and will make no exceptions for things like rape or unviable pregnancies (as seen in Texas).

Orange will take a scientific view based on viability of the fetus.

Green will prioritize the woman’s bodily autonomy.

Teal/turquoise will support the best possible compromise that reduces the greatest amount of suffering possible, while including as many of these perspectives as possible. Which was the status quo before regressive conservatives decided to turn the clock back 60 years (remembering that Roe was implemented 7-2 by a Supreme Court, and most of the conservative appointed justices supported the ruling).

Teal/turquoise would NOT support amber imposing their beliefs and metaphysics into everyone else.

Teal and turquoise would seek to minimize the total number of abortions as much as possible, using methods like sex education (“taking it up the arse” lol) and access to contraceptives. Such as the Colorado IUD plan that drastically reduced teenage pregnancies and abortions, but conservatives killed because it doesn’t fit into an abstinence-only set of solutions.

Teal/turquoise solutions would also prioritize improving conditions for poor Americans so they don’t feel like having a child will keep them trapped in poverty (it costs an average of $5k-10k just to deliver a child in this country) by creating systems to help with medical bills, early education, day care, school lunches, etc. All things that conservatives have opposed at every step.

Roe vs. Wade was the best possible compromise (as Ken himself believes) and created a system where the only “late term abortions” being performed were in cases of unviable fetuses or risk to the mother. Now Texan women don’t even have those protections, and are forced to carry fetuses with organs growing outside their bodies to term. Which is not reducing suffering, it’s creating more suffering in the name of religious belief.

Thank god for the abortion pill, the FDA, and the USPS.


#90

Again - your own projection.
You have a very dark view of everyone who does not follow your position and rather than come to terms with that, you need me to fill that role. So I oblige you.


#91

And - I would also argue - that being unable to “go dark” is a major fault of Green Tier. I think people along the road to Integral believe they have to always be “nice” - or at the very least academic or professional. Only time will tell where my theory takes me vs the “nice” path.

This doesn’t mean that “going dark” is higher than Green - but inability to go green is a Green shadow.
Your willingness to go dark against other causes and do ad homenim - then take the victim status when someone does it to you shows you are also struggling with this green shadow.

It’s common. lots of people want to see themselves as “the good guy” to the point where they do not accept responsibility in themselves and twist reality around so that they are always good and the other person is always bad.

So yeah, no problem - I can look into dark areas and address the worst topics, and also look into a potentially dark future and prepare for it. I can also face a person with unconscious dark intent and the dark ideas they just repeat without thinking from their brainwashing media. No problemo. I don’t see this as anything bad really. Whether it is more or less effective than the “love and light to all” method is debatable.
While I don’t “live in the dark”, I’m comfortable going there. While you are comfortable going there, you do it unconsciously and lie to yourself and deny that you live there.

So he has made progress, then? Kicking and screaming the whole way, but learning is possible.
I honestly can’t take time to read everything he writes, so yes I missed that.
I do remember him directly refusing to admit anything positive, though. So I guess this week we have progress. Whether he regresses again after diving deep into his chosen media - we’ll see.


#92

This question leads me to think of an off-topic question for @corey-devos
or maybe Ken

From Teal or higher - does a human fetus have more value than an animal fetus?
My hunch is that at Ultraviolet a society would carefully consider the value of unborn animal fetuses - but this might also just be some Green Tier Vegan ideals that becomes less important at higher levels.

Regardless - since we are not yet at Teal as a society and society has to address it’s Green shadows before it can move into Green:
@FermentedAgave - What center of gravity would you consider the United States constant obsession with war, our celebration of military “service” as more significant than medical service, for example, and the traditional conservative approach to use military force as a first resort in forcing other countries to do what the United States wants? What center of gravity is celebration of war and conflict and showing up to a protest armed to the teeth and wearing battle armor?


#93

There’s that conservative humor for you, always punching down :slight_smile:

Orange-to-green. Biden is orange, AOC and Bernie are green. Woke extremists are green with an amber underbelly.

I still have some questions that went unanswered.

Do you acknowledge that the same guy who crafted the Texas abortion law is trying to use the same legal framework to abolish gay marriage? Is he a fascist in one case, but not the other?

Which racist laws have wokists created that will need to be rolled back? That’s a legit question – I also see much of what passes as “woke” as a failure of the left, but as far as I know, they haven’t had a whole lot of luck legislating their lunacy, at least not nearly as much as the wingnuts on the right.


#94

@corey-devos I don’t think the author, as much as he might like, regardless if he gains some modicum of support, will make much progress on abolishing gay marriage. The vast majority of Americans don’t have the “issue of gay marriage” as a top 5 concern.

Less actual legislation, but usurping power through corruption of the administrative agencies. Clear cut examples are agencies forcing religions to violate their beliefs, schools adopting Critical Race Theory base racism, universities teaching Criticial Race based curriculum, corporations adopting policies to actively discriminate against people based upon their Identity rank. All of these are in direct violation of our Civil Rights Acts as plainly articulated previously. Yes, we’ve reached “Peak Woke”. Now it’s time to Wake Up and Clean Up.

Maybe my understanding is lacking. I thought Orange would be highly capable, responsible for their duties and roles. Would Biden dissolving our borders not give him at least a bit of Green street cred?
Perhaps a more nuanced question would be “how healthy of an Integral level instantiation are each?”


#95

I absolutely agree with you that our weird obsession with war is not something I appreciate. The “God Bless Our Troops” bumper sticker is great, right up to the smaller text of “And especially the Snipers”. That’s creepy to me.

We’ve never really gotten back to the “Overall Most Integral Society on the Planet” question. I don’t think you, or even Corey, would take issue with stating “most of the world is much less integral than the US”.

So how do we interact with the countries on your “Latin attrocities” list - Haiti, El Salvador, Mexican Cartels - without having the cajones to back up the agreements? Hopefully you can see that this is not a “celebration of war”.


#96

Pathological orange wants to profit, period, regardless of how much suffering they leave in their wake. It’s very easy for orange to develop a red underbelly.

And the way development works, if healthy orange is “highly capable”, healthy green would be even more capable. You only get to green by developing through orange.

“ Would Biden dissolving our borders not give him at least a bit of Green street cred?”

Well that’s not something that is even remotely going to happen, but either way, no, that would not necessarily be “green”.

Green is not a pathology, it is an entire stage of development that comes after orange and before teal.


#97

“Perhaps a more nuanced question would be “how healthy of an Integral level instantiation are each?””

I am not sure what this means — can you unpack?

Integral is a stage of development. It is an altitude, not an attitude. Integral leaders are able to consciously inhabit earlier stages as needed, but earlier stages are not able to “instantiate” integral until they themselves get there in their own development in any number of lines of intelligence.

So there is no “most integral” nation, because there are no nations making policy decisions from a teal or turquoise stage of development. It’s like saying “what is the most scientific superstition?”

If we ask a different question, “what is the most developmentally advanced and well-governed nation”, I would probably look to several of the nations that outrank us on the happiness and quality of life index. We can gauge the health of the social holon by looking at the overall physical, mental, cultural, and economic health of its individual members. And yes, we are lagging behind.

Highest obesity rates in the world. Americans dying of Covid around 5x more per capita than our neighbors in Canada. There goes physical health.

Epidemic anxiety, suicide, and depression rates. There goes mental health.

Culture warriors everywhere, extremists like woke and MAGA/Qanon leading the national discourse. Rampant anti-intellectualism. Conservative reactionaries dying 8:1 because they refuse to mask or vaccinate due to internet conspiracy theories dominating political discourse. Conservatives being responsible for the first non-peaceful transfer of power in modern political history. Lying about stolen elections. Planning to throw out the results of a democratic election and use made up loopholes to declare Trump president. Conservative politicians telling constituents they may need “2nd amendment solutions” for Democrats, and encouraging a national “divorce” between red and blue states (i.e. civil war). There goes cultural health.

Declining wages and purchasing power over multiple generations. The rich get richer, the middle class is shrinking, the poor get poorer, decade after decade. Social mobility at a historic low, while wealth inequality is at an all time high. There goes economic health.

And multiple other systems and pieces of infrastructure are collapsing. Texas can’t even keep its self-regulated power grid working and keeping people from freezing in their homes in over winter. Zero sensible response to climate change, despite it being responsible for the things like the most destructive fire in Colorado history, which burned nearly a thousand homes last month in my neighboring towns of Boulder and Superior. By far the most gun-related deaths of any nation on the planet. There goes our overall systemic health.

These are real problems, and the old “well, we’re good enough, better than those guys over there, no need to fix what’s always been broken” just doesn’t work for me anymore.


#98

I think it depends on how exactly we define “value”. We can talk about two kinds of holonic value here — “significant” value versus “fundamental” value.

Holons that are more complex (such as human beings) have more significant value. And in our day to day lives, this is what we tend to lead with. A good measure here is, if your house is burning down, in what order do you rescue the other holons living there? For me, I’d save my kid first, my dog second, and my goldfish last. (I don’t even have goldfish. It shows how not-significant they are :slight_smile: )

But fundamental value is important too. For example, the biosphere and total ecosystem are more fundamental than human beings. Which means that, if we kill all humans, the ecosystem will barely notice. In fact, it will be all the better for it. But if we kill all the more-fundamental, less-significant organisms that compose the ecosystem, then humanity also gets killed in the process.

That’s why bugs can live without people, but people can’t live without bugs.

That said, I think at the highest levels of development, there is an extension of care and compassion that reaches out to all holons, both significant and fundamental, while also recognizing the inherent cycles where life can only sustain itself through death of others. So I don’t think the highest stages available would necessarily go vegan out of principle — it could, but that’s going to largely depend on individual health needs, access to diversity of foods, etc. higher stages certainly wouldn’t impose veganism on others, because it recognizes that not all people have affordable access to these alternate sources of nutrition. It really requires a global trade infrastructure to support veganism, because most local ecosystems are not capable of growing a diverse enough selection of foods.

However, the highest stages would wish to reduce suffering for all holons as much as possible, even while accepting that people are omnivores, so it would probably seek to transform things like factory farms where the animals experience very low quality of life and high rates of suffering. However, it would probably prefer not to eat other significant holons that are highly evolved and intelligent. Which will be tough for me, because I love bacon, but I really do feel like I am sinning when I eat pig. But the fact that we eat octopus really unnerves me, because they are so incredibly intelligent.

Honestly, the most integral solution would probably be for us to begin eating bugs. It is an incredibly plentiful source of protein, and insects are very low on the scale of holonic significance. This would likely shift the climate change discussion in a major way.

But, you know, ew.


#99

@corey-devos
I think you’ve unpacked well.

If the US is at somewhere between your Qanon Red/Amber and DNC Orange/Green holon assessments, would this be an Amber/Orange holon with shades of Red and Green?

What nations would you assess as at higher Integral altitudes? Say at Orange/Green or perhaps even Green/Teal?


#100

Just to restate : I think the EU gets 10/100 integral points and the usa is around zero.
There are integral individuals in the usa and micro communities of less than a hundred. But as for governmental policies the overall structure is designed against this. Prioritising Military might vs education is just one example of several.
The usa stacks up well mostly against the third world but against other equally rich countries not well at all.
Then there are the countries in Europe that have better living than the EU like Switzerland or a half dozen or so independent European city states like Lichenstein (think Singapore without floggings)