Where are the women?


#41

In all frankness, the biggest and most existential threat to humanity is Mankind’s drive to be separate from the feminine. The male of the species is almost completely separate, and the female of the species envies this separation and seeks to follow that path as well.

I trust the contributors to this group are exceptions to what I just typed.
I also trust they are worthy of the challenge to facilitate reversals of this trend.

Here is an interesting clip to analyze AQAL - especially at about the 5 minute mark.


#42

@raybennett I loved the movie, but I would rather read your integral analysis than trying to make my own! (I don’t need homework :slight_smile: ). I guess I would like to understand your intention with the post, but if not, I will just let it drift.


#43

Hi Michelle, a few more questions for clarification:

I watched the Ken Sho Saturday in which the Zones were discussed; by any chance, did you? The interiority of the LR quadrant, which is Zone 7, was defined by Ken as the interactive rules that govern a particular group…communication, discourse (around Zone 8 social systems: medical, lega/justice, political, educational, financial, etc.). Corey accented this by pointing out that some of the problems we see in Zone 7 are due to patterns of prior laws (Zone 8) still having effects, resulting sometimes in unequal opportunities or outcomes. Is this what you’re getting at? That the ‘interactive rules’ that govern them, including the Integral ‘system,’ and the residual effects of some prior systems are a problem?

Can you talk a little more about this too, not from an analytic point of view (unless you wish), but in service to exploring it a bit more? The terms I think of when you say ‘mystical’ and ‘pragmatic’ in this context are ‘abstract’ and ‘concrete,’ and I could be far off from what you’re talking about, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Thanks.


#44

Just wanted to say thank you for taking me back in time to a most irate moment :slightly_smiling_face: when I learned years ago that something like 80% of all published material in history had been written by males. It was instrumental in my starting to enact the feminine perspective more directly in the world–in giving educational talks to men’s clubs–Kiwanis, Elks, FOP, etc.–about sexual assault when I was working in that area, I always managed to spend a little time on the fact that once God was a woman, at least in parts of the world, and that the Ultimate as God and Goddess still is primary in parts of the world. The room was always spell-bound, totally silent, and at the end (I’m laughing now), there was rarely a question; I was kindly thanked and asked “can I get you a cup of coffee before you leave?”

Of course, that stat on published material would be different now. Nor would I find any irony in having a room full of men ask the sole woman if they could get her a cup of coffee, rather than the other way around. Progress does happen.


#45

I was referencing the Mary Magdalene gnostic gospel. Can’t give you the exact quote at the moment. But it was the section where the disciples are asking Mary what teaching Jesus had passed on to her. Peter was saying that Jesus wouldn’t pass teachings on to a woman.
So
What if Adam had come from Eve’s rib
What if Cain and Abel had been sisters.
What if it had been Sarah rather than Abraham that had been told to sacrifice Isaac
What if Mary Magdalene were the Christ and Jesus was the beloved
What if Aisha was the prophet
What if Confucius and the Buddha were women.


#46

Simply that this scene in the movie shows that from a rational modern perspective “Men have intellect while women have souls” seemed pretty clever, while from the postmodern perspective (a 1990’s audience), this was insulting. It’s interesting to explore what an Integral perspective is.

I enjoy exploring all the way down to archaic. So much is covered about Archaic masculine, Red masculine, Amber Masculine. I’d be fascinated by a discussion of the feminine in Archaic, Red and Amber much more than the typical modern vs postmodern comparisons.

Though most of what I’d love to discuss on the topic isn’t welcome here, I judge.


#47

He who writes the histories normally looks more right than everyone else. :slight_smile: So I’m sure some things were pruned or massaged by the pens men for both higher good and egoic protection. Pesky humans.

To wear my oft donned Christian Apologist hat, our splint of Amber Literal Mythic treats Virgin Mary as Mother of God. She’s very seriously and often revered, almost as often as Jesus. So why do this?
Well that’s the story for starters, right. But what’s the impact on the community and the individuals. Much as the invocation of Kali, constant reminder of the divinity of women helps both men and women honor and stand in the emotional blast furnace that is completely natural, actually Devine.
In the community, the men can be doing guy stuff. Cooking heart stopping breakfast, cleaning up a widows yard, building a habitat house, and one of our ladies might blow through with fire. Or get a couple that are synchronized and it’s really hot… No where else that I am personally have access to aware is this respected and honored without skipping a beat. No figuring anything out, no judgment, no comments, no rolling of eyes.
Men respect the women and look at their divinity. Women don’t have to sweat anything and have the freedom to be themselves, husbands aren’t embarrassed. All a part of life.
Anyway, just a note from the Amber Literal Mythic realm. Magical thinking perhaps? But does anyone really care if it works?


#48

@bettina8. You might want to track down Heidi. I like her approach even if not for me right now, but do plan on sending a note if we ever make it to Tuscany.


#49

@raybennett I don’t know you so I can only judge from this one interaction :slight_smile: And here I would say that it wasn’t WHAT you wanted to discuss but your presentation of it, that gave me pause to wonder and almost didn’t want to interact. For me, It’s important to know that we have a safe and respectful space to discuss but that is not a given in fora like these. Also, only writing together is an enormously limiting mode of interaction for things this complicated. My best experience is a mix between meeting people (online or IRL) and then writing. If this is not possible, I would say that lightness, kindness and laughter (things that both parties find amusing so we can laugh together) are extremely important to include in online written conversations! This was something Heidi’s late husband Mark was extremely good at :heart:


#50

@FermentedAgave Heidi, her wonderful late husband Mark and I “studied” together in the Superhuman OS course back from November 2014 :slight_smile:


#51

@LaWanna Thanks so much for engaging me. This is really helping me process this “bug”.

Yes and no, but this totally helped to me clarify what’s troubling me. I am trying to discuss how the quadrants function for the soul, the subtle states. I think Integral over values gross states to the point where I would describe what the practice is as using subtle states to assist with a healthier gross reality. I think there is shadow in Integral with taking subtle states seriously. Integral tends to reduce them to a pre-trans confusion and only allows them to exist in early development or be accessed as a tool in higher development to assist in gross states.

I tend to see masculine energy holding more space in gross states and feminine energy holding more space in the subtle. I think that’s where that association comes into play for me. The traditional dynamic of women only being allowed to assist men in an interesting parallel…as a side note.

The last year I have been working with a more “ex-integral” scene so to speak (not exactly accurate). The key difference is they allow space for the subtle to stand side by side with the gross and for myself the difference is stark.

I do believe that Integral desires a “soul culture”, but I don’t think we can get there without taking a deeper dive into the subtle, dealing with our shadow around it’s magical, non rational and feminine nature. This past year where I have felt freer to take it seriously, I have found it’s play to be anything but irrational, pre conventional, magical childsplay or something that should be reduced to a tool that ultimately reinforces the only reality is gross reality.

I still think Integral is so important that I would love for it to look into it’s shadow around subtle REALITY. Let’s talk 4 quadrants of the subtle, if we want a soul culture LL.

I would love a deep dive into Zone 7 of the subtle. What are the groups? How do they communicate? Are there rules? Really, it’s been liberating to explore this…I would love to pull Integral into the exploration. If nothing else, it’s a whole lot more fun than talking politics!


#52

I enjoy to learn about thoughts and concepts, but I also have inner girls that want nurture, care, softness and just Being with their own- and the Weaknesses and vulnerabilities of others. I brought them to this post, Where are the women?, because that is how they feel - like little women growing up. I was assuming they could explore that here, and it would feel nice, safe and comforting. Which it did initially.

Now I sit with my stunned inner children on the grass, far from this venue. I look at the bruises they got and how they express that the mid- to later entries felt like sandpaper to their insides. And I sit with this emptiness below my solar plexus, a sadness I recognize, a pain so familiar; I have pushed the needs and longings of my inner children away. It was painful to be vulnerable growing up, so I hid my pain, my tears and my vulnerability - and I guess I want to express that here because I never wanted to hurt anyone intentionally - but now I slightly better recognize the pain I inflict upon myself.

I enjoy abstract thought, but empathizing with these inner parts of me, their experience of what happened here is this: They are young children between 5 and 14 watching small, cuddly rabbits suddenly being made into abstract, lifeless objects, turned around, picked apart and then later served cold. They are mortified; and I brought them here. So now we are going to watch a romantic series on Netflix with a female protagonist, listen to some birds chirp and just be sad and in pain together.

Writing this here is a form of apology to them, and also an expression of their wish to see others express their femininity, softness, vulnerability and pain in a way they view as nurturing and loving.


#53

Yes, Bettina, we did that course togehter. Seems to have been ages ago. And Mark organized the weekly meetings for some time. Precious moments!

Thanks for taking up the topic. I personally am not so interested anymore in the integral communities…


#54

I just found it interesting that at least part of this discussion was following the lines of “men have intellect while women have souls”, complete with AQAL footnotes and in my memory it reminded me of a line in a movie I saw 20-30 years ago. I wasn’t really thinking of my post as a desire to interact, but a desire for self expression regardless of if anyone else read it or not.

I myself don’t necessarily need a safe and respectful place to discuss the things I enjoy discussing, and I completely understand that others do need that, and this is not such a space.

I love a dancing analogy. Some of my funnest times I’ve had were dancing in places you would consider unsafe. And yes, I have a couple literal scars to show for it, but they don’t deter me. I hope to one day be in my 90’s and on a dance floor that turns into a bloody brawl, lol.
I also completely understand that this community doesn’t want anything of the kind, lol.

I think this community is great for “growing up”. Lots of high level ideas. Not a whole lot of “cleaning up” going on, though. That is what it is. Neither good nor bad, neither better nor worse. It is how this particular community wants it to be.


#55

Hey Ray, I thought this was a pretty good quickie stage-analysis of that particular scene in the clip.

And just want to check this out with you: has anything I’ve posted in this thread led you to believe that I LaWanna think “men have intellect while women have souls”? Because that’s certainly not my position. I basically agree with Corey’s write-up about the “Inhabit: Your Heart” podcast–we all, male and female, have both differentiating minds and integrating hearts. I’ll say a little more about this in another post.

Those are some good words. Remembering the divinity of both women and men helps us all.
I’m glad you find goodness and personal satisfaction in your particular experience of Christianity.


#56

This post is to follow-up on my comments about Ken’s “editorial” comments about “soul culture” in TROT book, and to speak further to some of the things @Michelle and I were discussing. I’m going to quote Wilber because his words validate my own intuitions and sense of things, and because I think his comments are both relevant to and instructive for this discussion, and I don’t know that everyone has read or has access to the TROT book. The book was published in 2017, so he might have different things to say today, or might say them in a different way, but what he has said is useful, I think. And will help clarify some of the terms and concepts we’ve been using.

“Much of the criticism of Western culture rests entirely on critiques involving the gross, sensorimotor, waking state of manifestation…Some suggest that Western culture needs more feminine values, that its “patriarchal” orientation has committed it to much too aggressive, analytic, hierarchical, egocentric instead of ecocentric, autonomy-focused instead of relationship-focused, modes of being and awareness. There is some truth to this, as long as it is set in an Integral context. Western culture, for example, categorically does not need more feminine values per se. The first two stages of female moral development, recall, are (a la Carol Gilligan) the egocentric selfish and the ethnocentric care–and Western culture absolutely does not need more selfish and more prejudiced sexist/racist values. It’s not enough to be female to contribute what Western society needs, because the very first two (and most common) stages of female values are exactly what the West needs less of, not more of…What the West needs more of are the highest stages of female moral and value development–worldcentric universal care and integrated.”

“Others suggest that capitalism needs, if not to be jettisoned entirely, a drastically new face…a much more compassionate and caring capitalism, ethical to its roots.”

“And then there are the ever-present technophiles, waiting for the Singularity, at which point machines will take over not only providing the answers but also posing the questions facing Western culture, and provide such brilliant responses as to be beyond even human comprehension.”

“But I would like to add just one more point, at the least. We get few critiques focused on the West’s state center of gravity…lacking in these mainstream suggestions are that any permanent transformations of the state center of gravity of the culture at large are needed…it should at least be said that Western culture is long past the time that its predominately ego-structured culture could and should become a soul culture. And by “soul,” I don’t mean in the sense of a fundamentalist mythic self-sense, locked into its ethnocentric, biased, in-group mentality, but in the sense of the actual subtle realm, which accepts interiors, is radiant with luminous creativity, and draws on the wisdom and virtue of, if not an actual string of past lives, then an extraordinary, unmatched learning process, or as a higher dimension of consciousness and culture beyond the ego’s materialistic, exteriors-focused, self-centric, flatland orientation.”

“The West has done everything that is necessary to make possible the emergence of this deeper, wider, higher dimension of reality. Particularly with the turn–and the jumpstart–that the process got in the sixties, the net result should have been that as individuals began to transform from around amber or orange to green (in structures), they would also have begun…moving from being gross-ego oriented to subtle-soul oriented. Although the leading edge of culture in the Western world is today (on average) at orange/green altitude (in structures) with gross/egoic states (on average), it should be, at the least, at orange/green with a subtle-state center.”

(I am going to stop here for now, take a break.)


#57

Of course all the below is just my “map”. Others of course have different maps they are reading from.

I’ll just go through and quote some things various posters have typed that might be -ish along those lines I was thinking. Though without actually flagging the poster because I don’t want to debate everything I note, lol.

Beige - MASCULINE (survival)
Purple - FEMENINE (tribal)
Red - MASCULINE (dominance)
Blue - FEMENINE (rule and role / religious)
Orange - MASCULINE (ratioanlity)
Green - FEMENINE (sensitivity)

Reading through the discussion again and as long as I’m typing … on a side note, I find the idea of scheduling Kali visits absurd. Just my opinion. Kali (by whatever name) DGAF about anyone’s efforts to control her appearances.

“War between masculinity and femininity” IMO war is masculine. Femininity and war are contradictions, in my opinion. Chaos, Death. plague, famine are some “darker” aspects of feminine but are very different from war. You can only have a war between masculinity and masculinity pretending to be something else. Again, just my opinions.
EDIT: I’d describe it as a war between Masculinity and Women, if anything.
I guess I have to add something that I just assume people understand but I should not assume.

Both Men and women have the potential to have both masculine and feminine directing their lives, and I find discussing women as == feminine and men as == masculine confuses things. This is particularly true in postmodernism, imo
End Edit

Masculinity rules the day - yes, I agree. Actually I think we see very through a similar lens. I’d say rulership is a masculine description. There’s a feminine equivalent word but it escapes me right now. By attempting to rule, the ruler becomes more masculine and less feminine. When women meet together, does a “natural leader” rise through intimidation and conquest to rule over the others as happens when males socialize?

Ego, as I judge is masculine. It wants to act, do, progress,evaluate, control. So I disagree with the slide show.

IMHO the Integral lens itself is initially a rational tool.
Maybe my pet peeve with this community in general is that I haven’t read many Ken’s books, but I did read the first one, while many people read all his books but didn’t quite “get” chapter one of book one. The three core ideas are Wake up clean up grow up. The “Integral Lens” tends to focus on only growing up - which isn’t Integral, lol. Yes, growing up tends to require and reinforce masculine “understanding”. Waking up, however, is - again in my judgement - feminine. Waking up requires throwing all that hubris out the window for at least a few seconds. Cleaning up is where they meet and interact.

There was also a discussion in there about the Christian Feminine and the Bible not actually saying who Mary Magdalene was in relation to Jesus. If she had no significant role, why was she apparently close to Jesus? I can think of at least three archetypal roles she might have played. The Priestess is one found in gnosticism. The whore is one found in early Christianity, the lover is found in more modern movies. Maybe she was all three or none, but if none - then what? Why did Jesus keep her around? To cook?
Mary Magdaline is in my opinion, analogous to the missing feminine in all of modern western society.


#59

https://impossiblearchives.rice.edu/

I guess I can’t see much value in so much of the conversation without this soul piece getting pulled in. How do the quadrants relate to the subtle?

Curious what you think about this new archive at Rice?


#60

Yes, I’ve seen that posted here somewhere in another thread. Following this then, Teal Integral would be Masculine, Turquoise Integral would be Feminine. I can look through this lens, the spiraling between the two, one flowing into the other, sort of like the Taoist yin-yang symbolism, shade inside light waiting to fully emerge, light inside shade waiting to fully emerge. It’s how I see Shiva (consciousness) and Shakti (creative energy, will)–one, inseparable, always intertwined, but can also be separated for analysis purposes, for example.

These two statements take me back to an earlier comment you made in another post, that the female “envies” the male’s separation from the feminine and seeks to follow the same path.
At first I wondered if you were satirically jesting, you know, pointing to Freud’s theory of female penis envy. But I think you were serious.

While I can look through that particular lens too–for example, see the world as sort of a sci-fi picture of robotic, unfeeling beings in constant competition–I over all do not see it that way. Yes, there are times and occasions and places, including in some of the conversations here, when things look like males are distanced from “the feminine” or “heart,” but I really think it’s nearly if not totally impossible to be totally separated from it–that yin-yang thing again. I turn again to Wilber’s commentary, that the world in general is operating from a materialistic and egocentric place (and ethnocentric), and both men and women fall into this category. And what you call “envying” on the part of women, I might say is women thrilling, so to speak, in their own autonomy and agency and in the empowered presence that gives them in the world, and also, as I say, falling into the same egoic traps–and all of this compounded by a culture that embodies a cutthroat form of capitalism, encourages outrageous consumption (as you’ve often spoken of), and “getting ahead,” “being somebody (important).”

In women’s groups I’ve been in, those who do have a good degree of agency and autonomy, along with clarity, without sacrificing relatedness or heart, are the ones who “rise” as natural leaders. They are able to create an environment of “individual freedom within the unity.” A secondary rung of “rising to the top” seem to be those who are, while not particularly agentic, are what I might call “exquisitely feminine,” you know, deep, mysterious, sensitive, but again not particularly agentic. But these are just my observations, speculations, so don’t put too much import on them.

And show up, in all 4 quadrants. And opening up.

This is an astute observation, yes.


#61

No, I was being serious. In my opinion it’s clear that the predominantly male rulership of the planet is based on unhealthy principles and unhealthy masculine, the shadow masculine. Very few of our corporate or political leaders are self actualized, much less “awakened”, lol. It’s hard to ignore that the US population is divided between a “Tyrant King” and a “Weakling King”. When women join into this fray they do it differently from men, but they all too often fall into unhealthy rather than healthy archetypes. Of course genetalia does not ensure anyone failure nor success in avoiding these negative models. I judge it’s harder for women to see this in women in power, just as it’s difficult for male Trump supporters to see him as a “High Chair Tyrant”, or male Biden supporters to see him as a Weakling because that would mean seeing themselves to a degree as High Chair Tyrants or Weaklings.

Yes, I see natural leadership as far more complex than “ruling” (over), Which was the original term used. So Feminine traits leading to great leadership makes sense to me, while rulership to me sounds almost exclusively masculine (and I have a negative feel towards it).