Thanks @LaWanna
And even more importantly for me is that my woman loves it. 
I think it easy to disembody from the core reality that good men want their women partners to be happy and have everything they desire in the world, more than anything else. Itâs the doing to experience this thatâs the hard part.
Re: the Rice Archives, do I think as the short blurb states, that âpsychical and paranormal phenomena are an unacknowledged and unassimilated Other of modern thought, the still unrealized future of theory, the fleeting signs of a consciousness not yet become a cultureâ? I can agree with that.
I am familiar with more than a few of the names on their list, among them Integralist Stuart Davis. Another integralist (not on the list) that is doing work in this area is Sean Hargens. If youâre not already familiar with his work in anomalous phenomena, you can check out this link: https://www.exostudies.org. He offers some courses that use a âcomplex integral realismâ approach to âwhat is real.â One of his main present interests, I believe, is ufology, but thatâs not his sole subject matter.
I donât know if this is exactly what youâre asking about, but in terms of how the quadrants relate to the subtle, KW has talked about this, and draws from Eastern traditions/philosophies that speak of the three main states of consciousness: waking, dreaming, and deep dreamless sleep. These are natural states which everyone of course experiences. The waking state is called the âgrossâ state, the dreaming state is called the âsubtleâ and the deep dreamless sleep state is called the âcausalâ (or the 'very subtle). And of course, the subtle state is not limited to dreaming-while-asleep, as you already of course know, and the causal is not limited to deep dreamless sleep but is accessed through meditation and other forms of spiritual practice or even spontaneously as well. Correlated with the waking state for most people is the ego; correlated with the subtle state is soul, correlated with the deep dreamless sleep state Wilber has alternately called spirit and higher self.
So anywayâŚaccording to Eastern traditions, each of these statesâgross, subtle, causal-- has a body, a body that has both mass and energy. I support this view. The gross state has a physical body, the subtle state a subtle body, the causal state a causal body. The interior subtle-state experience would be UL quadrant, and the body connected to that state is UR quadrant, observable and/or behavioral (think for instance of such things as auras even, that some can see).
As for LL quadrant, I think of groups that, in integral terms, become a higher consciousness (such as subtle state or even causal or beyond) âwe-spaceâ through meditating together or such. My reference earlier to the shamanic work with a mental health clinic in which each personâs individual journey content, while different from everyone elseâs, had at its core the same âinsightâ or awareness as everyone else hadâwe are oneâis an example of a higher consciousness we-space. I have experienced this kind of phenomena again and again in groups. Ancient practices of people dreaming together (in sleep states) is another example.
As for the LR and how the subtle state shows up there, thoughts are subtle experiences, as are imaginings, fantasies, unconscious material in the background of consciousness or that is buried and comes alive in the form of shadow, etc. So some of that interaction in Zone 7 undoubtedly has some subtle-state influences in it, and not all of it ânegative,â of course. The doctrine of Manifest Destiny undergirding the Western expansion of the colonists in the US was supposedly based on a religious revelation (a subtle experience) that became a cultural mindset. The Iroquoian Confederacyâs Great Law of Peace which influenced the US Constitution was supposedly based upon the subtle visions of those tribes. And thereâs been more than one politician or doctor or scientist who has made breakthroughs through dreams or consulting a psychic (or having their own psychic experience) and such, their subtle experiences influencing entire systems in the LR quadrant. Iâm not sure this is a good enough or direct enough answer about the LR quadrant and the subtle, but maybe it will stimulate your thinking?
Forgive me Michelle if Iâve repeated a lot of material you are already familiar with, and if this post seems a bit disorganized. I got interrupted with a call, and lost my train of thought temporarily. I know thereâs something else I wanted to say, but do not remember at the moment what it was.
This is great. You have a wonderful understanding of this material, so I really appreciate being able to discuss it. It can be a real challenge to process this material at a deeper level since itâs so hard to find people who get it.
I do think this type of subtle level conversation is lacking in the world, and Integral as well. I also think the LR is lacking deeper understanding. I am an architect, so itâs a bit of my native perspective and I definitely see it differently than many, but I think itâs because I see the soul of it. The LR is beautiful gateway to the soul that is often missed. I see for the first time thatâs the difference. I am looking at things through the subtle lens and others are looking at it through the gross lens. I love that move between the two which architecture and nature are amazing playgrounds for. I find it interesting that both spaces seemed to be ignored in the discussion of the LR, but I think itâs because their significance is greater in the subtle. In gross reality they donât seem important past a certain stage, so shifting to governmental documents seems more relevant to higher developmental stage/gross state. Fascinating!
I like the stage/state development that you (Ken) laid out in an earlier post. I really never put them together so tightly before. This has been a revelation. I think for myself what has happened in this past year is the subtle came in as a more fully integrated reality. That waking/dreaming space is more unified, and I feel so much better, whole.
I feel my stage development (reasonably heathy orange-teal space) is a solid enough ground and exploring this subtle space for the rest of my life sounds awesome. I think thatâs why Integral, at this moment, feels less interesting. It seems to function on a teal-turquoise/gross state space with stage development being itâs primary focus.
I do know a bit about Seanâs work and that is a part of what drew me back into this space. The subtle space is a weird wild world. I love Integral for itâs map making. I do feel more âlocatedâ now. I think that matters a lot when exploring the subtle. The subtle draws you into the undeveloped parts of your psyche and how to navigate those moments really matter. I think it get bypassed a lot for this reason. There is real danger to it.
this has been so helpful! Thanks
This reminded me that sometimes âyou canât get there from hereâ. Can we get to where the Feminine can express and generate more freely than through the classic written form? Does using the written modality with itâs linear, hierarchical defaults hinder where we might âwant to get toâ?
Not that IL has to take on the project, but are their platforms that would facilitate better the Feminine expression? Iâll plug Heidiâs communication styles again. I havenât joined her calls but have replayed some of her Wisdom Factory videos. There might be something for people in experiencing her conversations.
After a bit of a delay, Iâm back, having remembered the other thing I wanted to tell you. And maybe youâre aware, but thereâs a Wilber article âToward a Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energyâ available as a free pdf download at http://integrallife.com The Ken Sho has focused on the subtle at various times, as you may also know.
Yes, I remember youâre an architect and you are so right that architecture is part of our infrastructure system in the LR quadrant (along with planet Earth). And also that politics and culture and governance have been prominent in Integral discussions, particularly since the Trump election and all that has come since. I personally have learned a lot from this focus, about that aspect of reality.
I love what you say about your waking/dreaming space being more unified, making you feel more whole. Agreed! I also like what you said about your stage development being âsolid enough groundâ for you to further explore the subtle. That is important, that we have a solid rationality and facility with reason, when dipping more than a toe into the big terrain of the subtle, which for all its beauty and wonder and luminosities etc. also is host to things that go bump in the night (as the gross-physical realm also has its unexpected and/or challenging circumstances, but the subtle is different in that there are fewer people to provide validity to oneâs perceptions and experiences).
Maybe youâll share at some point some of the ways youâre using the subtle with your architectural work? Iâd like that.
âAll the material in nature, the mountains and the streams and the air and we, are made of Light which has been spent, and this crumpled mass called material casts a shadow, and the shadow belongs to Light. â Louis Kahn
Hi - Just saw this very long thread. I probably wonât read it all, but I have the same question - where are the women? - and I want to be sure to invite women to the next integral conference which Iâm hosting with my husband. Please see https://www.integralwtf.com. We are swimming in men and need more feminine presence!
Iâm Lynn Fuentes, not Royster as of 10 years ago.