Where are the women?


Thanks @LaWanna
And even more importantly for me is that my woman loves it. :pray:

I think it easy to disembody from the core reality that good men want their women partners to be happy and have everything they desire in the world, more than anything else. It’s the doing to experience this that’s the hard part.


Re: the Rice Archives, do I think as the short blurb states, that “psychical and paranormal phenomena are an unacknowledged and unassimilated Other of modern thought, the still unrealized future of theory, the fleeting signs of a consciousness not yet become a culture”? I can agree with that.

I am familiar with more than a few of the names on their list, among them Integralist Stuart Davis. Another integralist (not on the list) that is doing work in this area is Sean Hargens. If you’re not already familiar with his work in anomalous phenomena, you can check out this link: https://www.exostudies.org. He offers some courses that use a “complex integral realism” approach to “what is real.” One of his main present interests, I believe, is ufology, but that’s not his sole subject matter.

I don’t know if this is exactly what you’re asking about, but in terms of how the quadrants relate to the subtle, KW has talked about this, and draws from Eastern traditions/philosophies that speak of the three main states of consciousness: waking, dreaming, and deep dreamless sleep. These are natural states which everyone of course experiences. The waking state is called the “gross” state, the dreaming state is called the “subtle” and the deep dreamless sleep state is called the “causal” (or the 'very subtle). And of course, the subtle state is not limited to dreaming-while-asleep, as you already of course know, and the causal is not limited to deep dreamless sleep but is accessed through meditation and other forms of spiritual practice or even spontaneously as well. Correlated with the waking state for most people is the ego; correlated with the subtle state is soul, correlated with the deep dreamless sleep state Wilber has alternately called spirit and higher self.

So anyway…according to Eastern traditions, each of these states–gross, subtle, causal-- has a body, a body that has both mass and energy. I support this view. The gross state has a physical body, the subtle state a subtle body, the causal state a causal body. The interior subtle-state experience would be UL quadrant, and the body connected to that state is UR quadrant, observable and/or behavioral (think for instance of such things as auras even, that some can see).

As for LL quadrant, I think of groups that, in integral terms, become a higher consciousness (such as subtle state or even causal or beyond) “we-space” through meditating together or such. My reference earlier to the shamanic work with a mental health clinic in which each person’s individual journey content, while different from everyone else’s, had at its core the same “insight” or awareness as everyone else had–we are one–is an example of a higher consciousness we-space. I have experienced this kind of phenomena again and again in groups. Ancient practices of people dreaming together (in sleep states) is another example.

As for the LR and how the subtle state shows up there, thoughts are subtle experiences, as are imaginings, fantasies, unconscious material in the background of consciousness or that is buried and comes alive in the form of shadow, etc. So some of that interaction in Zone 7 undoubtedly has some subtle-state influences in it, and not all of it “negative,” of course. The doctrine of Manifest Destiny undergirding the Western expansion of the colonists in the US was supposedly based on a religious revelation (a subtle experience) that became a cultural mindset. The Iroquoian Confederacy’s Great Law of Peace which influenced the US Constitution was supposedly based upon the subtle visions of those tribes. And there’s been more than one politician or doctor or scientist who has made breakthroughs through dreams or consulting a psychic (or having their own psychic experience) and such, their subtle experiences influencing entire systems in the LR quadrant. I’m not sure this is a good enough or direct enough answer about the LR quadrant and the subtle, but maybe it will stimulate your thinking?

Forgive me Michelle if I’ve repeated a lot of material you are already familiar with, and if this post seems a bit disorganized. I got interrupted with a call, and lost my train of thought temporarily. I know there’s something else I wanted to say, but do not remember at the moment what it was.


This is great. You have a wonderful understanding of this material, so I really appreciate being able to discuss it. It can be a real challenge to process this material at a deeper level since it’s so hard to find people who get it.

I do think this type of subtle level conversation is lacking in the world, and Integral as well. I also think the LR is lacking deeper understanding. I am an architect, so it’s a bit of my native perspective and I definitely see it differently than many, but I think it’s because I see the soul of it. The LR is beautiful gateway to the soul that is often missed. I see for the first time that’s the difference. I am looking at things through the subtle lens and others are looking at it through the gross lens. I love that move between the two which architecture and nature are amazing playgrounds for. I find it interesting that both spaces seemed to be ignored in the discussion of the LR, but I think it’s because their significance is greater in the subtle. In gross reality they don’t seem important past a certain stage, so shifting to governmental documents seems more relevant to higher developmental stage/gross state. Fascinating!

I like the stage/state development that you (Ken) laid out in an earlier post. I really never put them together so tightly before. This has been a revelation. I think for myself what has happened in this past year is the subtle came in as a more fully integrated reality. That waking/dreaming space is more unified, and I feel so much better, whole.

I feel my stage development (reasonably heathy orange-teal space) is a solid enough ground and exploring this subtle space for the rest of my life sounds awesome. I think that’s why Integral, at this moment, feels less interesting. It seems to function on a teal-turquoise/gross state space with stage development being it’s primary focus.

I do know a bit about Sean’s work and that is a part of what drew me back into this space. The subtle space is a weird wild world. I love Integral for it’s map making. I do feel more “located” now. I think that matters a lot when exploring the subtle. The subtle draws you into the undeveloped parts of your psyche and how to navigate those moments really matter. I think it get bypassed a lot for this reason. There is real danger to it.

this has been so helpful! Thanks


This reminded me that sometimes “you can’t get there from here”. Can we get to where the Feminine can express and generate more freely than through the classic written form? Does using the written modality with it’s linear, hierarchical defaults hinder where we might “want to get to”?

Not that IL has to take on the project, but are their platforms that would facilitate better the Feminine expression? I’ll plug Heidi’s communication styles again. I haven’t joined her calls but have replayed some of her Wisdom Factory videos. There might be something for people in experiencing her conversations.


After a bit of a delay, I’m back, having remembered the other thing I wanted to tell you. And maybe you’re aware, but there’s a Wilber article “Toward a Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energy” available as a free pdf download at http://integrallife.com The Ken Sho has focused on the subtle at various times, as you may also know.

Yes, I remember you’re an architect and you are so right that architecture is part of our infrastructure system in the LR quadrant (along with planet Earth). And also that politics and culture and governance have been prominent in Integral discussions, particularly since the Trump election and all that has come since. I personally have learned a lot from this focus, about that aspect of reality.

I love what you say about your waking/dreaming space being more unified, making you feel more whole. Agreed! I also like what you said about your stage development being “solid enough ground” for you to further explore the subtle. That is important, that we have a solid rationality and facility with reason, when dipping more than a toe into the big terrain of the subtle, which for all its beauty and wonder and luminosities etc. also is host to things that go bump in the night (as the gross-physical realm also has its unexpected and/or challenging circumstances, but the subtle is different in that there are fewer people to provide validity to one’s perceptions and experiences).

Maybe you’ll share at some point some of the ways you’re using the subtle with your architectural work? I’d like that.


“All the material in nature, the mountains and the streams and the air and we, are made of Light which has been spent, and this crumpled mass called material casts a shadow, and the shadow belongs to Light. ” Louis Kahn


Hi - Just saw this very long thread. I probably won’t read it all, but I have the same question - where are the women? - and I want to be sure to invite women to the next integral conference which I’m hosting with my husband. Please see https://www.integralwtf.com. We are swimming in men and need more feminine presence!


I’m Lynn Fuentes, not Royster as of 10 years ago.