Who is your "dream guest" for Integral Life?

Who would you like to see featured on Integral Life, to be interviewed by Ken Wilber, Jeff Salzman, Corey deVos, Keith Witt, Robb Smith, etc.? Why would you like to see them featured? Is it because you think they are already flying at an integral altitude? Or perhaps because they have a true-but-partial piece that you would like to see added to the puzzle?

Let us know below!


I really enjoy listening to the Joe Rogan show and think that he lives the practice of everyone being at least a little right on his show. He is very open minded, inquisitive and also remains reasonably skeptical.

I think KW being able to either be on the Joe Rogan show or Joe being interviewed by Ken would be a very interesting conversation.

I would also love to see a Ken Wilber Vs Sam Harris podcast. I think that would be stellar.


Me! Lol but seriously: self-taught and discovered ILP practitioners who stay in the trenches of practice and expanding expansion with all beings, completely self-funded and guided. The people who were post-green and deep teal and felt bizarre and then did a double take when they saw the words Sex, Ecology, Spirituality, devoured it at the age of 20? 21? and were off to the races from there, but maybe went ten or fifteen or more years before they met another person who knew the name Ken Wilber. The wilderness prophets of integral. The wild hairy Tricksters who work up and down the entire chain of being for fun lol. The train wrecks and the transformations. The people who are the only deep integral nerds in their part of the world.

Also Katie Couric, Oprah, Barbara Walters: integral women who have demonstrated the power of listening and seeing with a decidedly post-green heart. And Kermit the Frog is always overdue to return too :blush:

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Jon Favreau. I just posted about The Wilderness podcast which is making me see just how integral the Obama administration was and making me question what was missed. I would love to hear Jeff and Jon talk!


Some great mentions in this post. I still wanna see the debate between Ken and Don Beck!
Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt would be awesome too.

I also think it would be very educational and informative to have a guest who is not at all near an Integral altitude, but would still contribute to the conversation by giving a sincere expression of their altitude, whatever it may be. For example, former neo-nazi Christian Piccolini would be very interesting to interview, simply so we can see red consciousness at its purest (in real life examples). This goes for any other altitude. Heck, even someone from the west borough baptist church would be interesting, and would allow the host to showcase their spiral flexibility and Integral conversation skills, so us viewers can learn to connect with anyone at any level and appreciate their underlying value system.


I don’t think that KW debating Jordan Peterson would be good for KW’s image. JP would shred KW.

KW would have to first get Jordan to concede to a developmental psychology model, which I don’t think Jordan would. And then he would need to get Jordan to concede to Post Modernism, which Jordan is in denial of.

KW rules the roost on the 2nd tier. Jordan is the current heavy weight world champion of the 1st tier.

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Not sure if you were responding to me Jeb – just realized my typing was confusing. Didn’t intend to say Ken should debate JP or Haidt. Sorry. Anyway I agree with what you said. I have 2 questions for you.

  1. Some Integralists claim (very ardently) that JP is in fact, Integral. Do you disagree? And if so, why?
  2. What is Sam Harris’s altitude? Sometimes he seems totally orange, yet he writes books on “waking up” and has explored meditation, eastern spirituality, and psychedelics in depth (interiors, subjectivity, etc), which is not typical of orange. He also seems to have an allergy to the postmodern aspects of green, yet he still has some green impulses (climate change, anti-Trump, even said himself he’s "well to the left on almost every issue).

I was responding to you Ryan. But sorry for reading you incorrectly.

  1. I spent a lot of time thinking about this. I don’t believe that Jordan Peterson is 2nd tier because of how allergic he is to post modernism. Which I can relate to because post-modernism can make my skin crawl. Jordan is himself a post-modernist but he protects himself with a number of exceptions and turns it into a them (PM) vs himself. He is very critical of red-meme young men and does a lot of work (12 Rules) to purposefully bring people up into blue and orange memes. But ultimately he isn’t aware of what the overall strategy is. I think from his world out look is that there are productive healthy ways to view life and a lot of unhealthy ways. He never brings up developmental processes of psychology and doesn’t seem to accept that post-modernism is a stage of development. So for those reasons I don’t think he is integral. But I do think on the first tier he is one of the best speakers/intellectuals. I think his heart is in the right place and that he does the whole development spiral good.

  2. I struggle with what Sam Harris is or what he is about. I don’t like listening to him often because I find him boring. He has the ability to say a lot and not actually make a point or mean it. And he has read KW, he references KW in some of his books (so I have been told). I think if you cornered him he would admit that the AQAL framework has merit but that just because you put the quadrants together on paper they don’t actually have any connection to each other. He certainly has done an immense amount of UL quadrant work but seems conclude it was just an aspect of his biology and has little to no profound importance. And I think he is allergic post modernism like Jordan, but a little more accepting of it.

Both of them seem to be Post-modernists but when it comes to the ugly parts of the green meme, they retreat to scientific orange, hierarchical blue instead of pushing forward into a second tier. I think that applies to a lot of people now a days.


Thanks for the thoughtful response, Jeb. I think you articulated their altitudes very clearly. I largely agree with your take on both of them, especially their retreat into 1st tier memes instead of transcending to 2nd. I tend to look at Sam Harris as the “waking up” guy focused on consciousness and phenomenology of spiritual experience (i.e. mindfulness meditation) and Peterson as the “growing up” guy focused on developing character (the 12 rules). Perhaps they both have Integral potential – I tend to look at Peterson as having Integral potential with an amber “soul”, and Harris with an orange one.

Perhaps it is difficult to integrate postmodernism into an overarching ideology or spectrum of development, given that in many ways, the sine qua non of postmodern ideology is about deconstructing such overarching narratives; a philosophy of disintegration, vs one of integration. I think for many who have extensively studied postmodernism, its radicalism and inherently disruptive quality makes it either all consuming or just some babbling, incoherent relativistic nonsense. I have a friend who is a philosophy professor who has studied postmodernism extensively, and absolutely hates it (skin crawling would be far too light here) yet she largely lives at a green altitude, complete with green moral impulses and tendencies. I guess it can be hard to look past the ugly aspects of postmodernism, even for people who are largely at green! Fortunately we have an Integral model to help show us the way, but without it, I could see myself feeling very lost as to proceeding up the spiral, and result into the same 1st tier retreat so common now days.


Given his current celebrity and cultural impact, particularly around his views on some issues Ken Wilber has also addressed, I would recommend Jordan Peterson as a pretty exciting (and new-audience-generating) IL guest…

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Well said Ryan. Very good points regarding Sam being the waking up guy and Jordan the growing up guy. But watching their debates against each other demonstrates their inability to integrate.

It’s sad, they both have so much 2nd tier potential.

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I second the Jordan Peterson & Joe Rogan suggestions.
I’d also be curious if Louis CK could sit down for a chat and unpack his reflections through an integral lens.

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I recommend Kent Bye of the Voices of VR podcast. He has insight into the possibilities of the emerging virtual and augmented reality worlds and how its players could and will affect humanity. And being of a spiritual nature would be a very interesting look at the future through his eyes and experience as a journalist documenting the change that is underway. I think this set of platforms will be transformative to the world and I hope Integralists can get ahead of it and use it to influence the outcomes. He is aware of Integral theory and has spoken of it in his podcast.


I made this same suggestion to Ken about a month ago, and now he and Kent have an interview lined up. Stay tuned! :slight_smile:


Hey, that’s really good news Corey. I’m glad to hear my suggestion to you for a Kent Bye interview in early June is coming to fruition. :slight_smile: Really looking forward to hearing that conversation.

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I love Rogan, Maron, etc. I’m not sure they are “authentic” necessarily but I like that they express emerging contemporary style & growth, in a more messy, humorous, offensive and less professional-sounding fashion. Shiny, clean, well-packed perspectives leave a lot to be desired. And, frankly, I’m sick of hearing from people who’ve written books…

I’d rather be surprised than hear something I generally agree with. Or perhaps I’d rather agree with the process than the opinions…

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And I’m very glad that I suggested to you that you suggest to me that I suggest to Ken that her do this interview. The power of suggestion!


Sorry, dude, forgot about your powers of reverse causality. :wink: Perhaps it arose simultaneously in the space between us in that conversation we had in June. Not a big deal. Just glad the talk is happening. Great minds think alike etc.

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Yah I’m gonna have to be a big downvote on Jordan Peterson. Since when is pouty regression an integral approach to anything? There’s no such thing as an old-fashioned man: masculinity is always the emergence of something new along with the integration of the old. Peterson is literally an advocate for the opposite of that. He’s like the opposite of the puer eternal lol. I’m pretty sure the point of the entire Jung/Johnson/Bly/Campbell lineage was not to produce a whiny brat who blames his inability to command respect or affection on the libs.

This guy is not challenging green from above, he’s sniping from below - that’s an important role, but it’s evidence of childish regression rather than courageous evolution. Jordan Peterson is just not very much of a man, and he can’t handle that fact, and the work reflects it. He’s just another male who can’t step up to the plate of postmodern challenge and knock it out of the park: males who provide blame as a succor to inadequacy are enablers and bad father figures, and that’s what he’s doing. He’s a Fagin - a gang leader of orphans. I’m as confident that I could beat Jordan Peterson in a fight as I am that I could beat him in a dance off lol


Here’s a wild idea: @corey-devos, why not interview people from this board? I am deeply impressed by the intelligence, sincerity, thoughtfulness, and commitment to IT demonstrated by everyone in this message board, and I have learned so, so much about every topic, from spirituality to politics to evolution. Giving these “ordinary people” a platform would very much be a 2nd tier thing – crowd sourced intelligence from the masses, a kinds of “grass roots Integral”, if you will. Everyone also has their own area of expertise as it relates to IT, and if nothing else, I would be very interested in hearing people’s stories and how they got into Integral, their spiritual path, etc… and would be a great way of honoring the community and seeing what people are up to. Maybe this could be its own section on Integral life called “stories from the community” or something, which could feature half an hour or so interviews where these wise souls could get a platform to share their inspirations and insights. It could even be a Joe Rogan “shoot the breeze” style too.

I think creating this board was a great step in further cultivating the Integral community, and move towards a more inclusive, grass roots, wisdom of crowds approach, and am so happy to see Integral Life move in that direction. Interviews could potentially take it to the next level. Its a safe bet that if someone is into IT, they are going to be interesting :wink:

And I personally feel that you would be the best at this, Corey :smile: